Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 1

[The Guard]

And, by extension, how WE are to feel about Superman. It's the writer telling us through the dialogue of Batman that "You, audience member, are to view Superman through the eyes of these statements of this particular character." It's the classic storytelling no-no, "Show, Don't Tell".

The sad thing is it's not even subtle. They're just hitting us over the head with it.

Are you incapable of making up your own mind about how you feel? Are others incapable of making up their mind about how they feel?

Where's the issue here, exactly?

Steppenwolf says that the Earth will fall. Are we to believe that, too?

And why on Earth does this particular concept need to be expressed in a subtle manner? It's a voiceover in the middle of a trailer designed to succintly deliver a motivation for a key character.

 

[Marvin]

Nope, disagree...

my point wasn't if they were right or wrong, rather that they too are conceivably 'shocked'.
Meaning, what does that prove.

 

[writer0327]

Are you incapable of making up your own mind about how you feel?

Where's the issue here?

Steppenwolf says that Earth will fall.

Are we to believe that, too?

The issue is sloppy writing. Intimating to the audience how to feel about a character by telling us what to feel is about the worst kind of writing there is.

 

[writer0327]

my point wasn't if they were right or wrong, rather that they too are conceivably 'shocked'.
Meaning, what does that prove.

I said I'm shocked that people continue to defend terrible narrative. I suppose it's fair to say they are equally "shocked" that anyone disagrees to what they consider to be terrific storytelling.

 

[The Guard]

The issue is sloppy writing. Intimating to the audience how to feel about a character by telling us what to feel is about the worst kind of writing there is.

If you mean that a character saying how he feels is sloppy writing, then it's sloppy writing when its found in like, every movie ever made at some point.

Why is it sloppy writing here...in, wait for it...a trailer?

 

[herolee10]

They're not a "Justice League" just because they are in the same place at the same time fighting against a foe. The "Justice League" is a concscious decision to remain together as a team to protect against future threats.



How is this film not also introducing new heroes?

Is it somehow less valid an approach because it's not "a new generation" of them?



So let's say it's never been done. They can't try something new?



You don't know that.

And even if that was the case...so?

Most of these characters are able to contribute because of their vast powers, skills and resources, not just because of their character or the goodness of their hearts. Their character is what makes them USE these powers, skills and resources to help, but it is not all they have to offer.

1. But for a majority of the film, all of the members, sans Superman, are fighting alongside each other as a cohesive unit. It's not like the Anengers where they finally became a unified team in the third act. Adding Superman to the group doesn't make any difference from the looks of it.

2. Regarding the new heroes; yes they're introducing new heroes but they're also showing the new ones joining forces with the current heroes and Superman is a current superhero and not a prominent figure from a previous generation.

3. Promoting a film without one of its supposed key members just doesn't make sense imho. There's no reason why they would want to reinvent the wheel when it comes to this situation. Either Superman isn't important enough to the story to be promoted for the film or he isn't a member of the group, hence why he isn't on there.

4. When it has come to Superman's involvement with the league, it has always been more than just the strength and power he contributes to the group. Regulating him to just a muscle bound member is a disservice for what he stands for.

 

[Legendver2]

Lol, my my, some of you are acting like the part with Alfred talking to Superman is literally the start of the third act and that is when Superman suddenly appears without explanation. Kind of a reach there. Say what you want about Snyder, his direction and storytelling, but even he isn't stupid enough to do that. You can pretty much guarantee there's some side arc with Supes being revived and he appears earlier than the Alfred scene in some form.

 

[The Guard]

1. But for a majority of the film, all of the members, sans Superman, are fighting alongside each other as a cohesive unit. It's not like the Anengers where they finally became a unified team in the third act. Adding Superman to the group doesn't make any difference from the looks of it.

How on Earth do you know what its like? Have you seen the movie?

We've flat out been told that some of them will be reluctant to join.

Do you know they will be "cohesive" when they start fighting together?

What on Earth does this have to do with Superman? Is he not also capable of cohesive fighting when he shows up?

2. Regarding the new heroes; yes they're introducing new heroes but they're also showing the new ones joining forces with the current heroes and Superman is a current superhero and not a prominent figure from a previous generation.

And odds are they will be showing him joining forces with them as well.

Or do you think he's just going to show up and fight evil on his own?

3. Promoting a film without one of its supposed key members just doesn't make sense imho.

Nor is that what they're doing. They clearly just released a trailer that is heavy on "We need Superman". The trailer ended with a glimpse of what is almost certainly Superman.

Saying that they are promoting this film without an eye toward his character is disingenuous at best.

4. When it has come to Superman's involvement with the league, it has always been more than just the strength and power he contributes to the group. Regulating him to just a muscle bound member is a disservice for what he stands for.

I already pointed out that I was aware of this.

Him having more to offer than just power does not change the reality of the situation...he is able to take point as a member of the League because of his powers. You can wax poetic about how his true superpower is his heart all you want. Without his powers, he would not be as useful to the league on a consistent basis.

In the case of a massive alien invasion, his main resource is his power. They need his heavy hitting. I'm sure they will also show his ability to inspire and his character, but his power is not something to disregard in this equation.

 

[The Shape]

The Guard, I'd like to remind you that you are literally talking to a wall right now.

 

[writer0327]

If you mean that a character saying how he feels is sloppy writing, then it's sloppy writing when its found in like, every movie ever made at some point.

Nope, not saying that at all.

Why is it sloppy writing here...in, wait for it...a trailer?

Are we supposing that the lines in this trailer aren't lines from the movie?

 

[herolee10]

Lol, my my, some of you are acting like the part with Alfred talking to Superman is literally the start of the third act and that is when Superman suddenly appears without explanation. Kind of a reach there. Say what you want about Snyder, his direction and storytelling, but even he isn't stupid enough to do that. You can pretty much guarantee there's some side arc with Supes being revived and he appears earlier than the Alfred scene in some form.

I think most of us know that won't be the case. If there is one thing that we can all agree on, it's that there will be some big sequence involving his revival. The issue here is how late he will join the others in the final fight and how he might not have much, if not any, time to properly interact with the group when all he'll isn't breaking loose. I mean loo at how Snyder crafted the Doomsday fight where Superman and Wonder Woman didn't really say or interact with each other.

 

[sf2]

it's easy to tell. look at all the WB/DC future plans. superman is not involved. he isn't a part of it.

Therefore, i deduce that superman won't get 1/6 of the time in JL. he won't get much attention. if the film is too long and need to trim... his will be in the editing floor just like BvS treatment. He is dispensable in JL.

they need to promote and highlight on Aquaman and Flash as they have new solo movies coming years. just like they did on WW in BvS and now they are harvesting.
WW & Batgod are they tent poles, therefore more focus and wow must be attended to.

superman... we can reboot him since DCEU superman getting a mixed and isn't liked by many. bye bye Henry.

 

[sf2]

I agree that whatever Superman did in MoS and BVS means ultimately nothing. I can't accept the Justice League without Superman.

Looks like they're banking on Wonder Woman to make the JL movie a success.

you can't blame them. WW is the top summer movie this year. WW2 will soon roll into pre production. while MOS2???

 

[vantheman77]

it's easy to tell. look at all the WB/DC future plans. superman is not involved. he isn't a part of it.

Therefore, i deduce that superman won't get 1/6 of the time in JL. he won't get much attention. if the film is too long and need to trim... his will be in the editing floor just like BvS treatment. He is dispensable in JL.

they need to promote and highlight on Aquaman and Flash as they have new solo movies coming years. just like they did on WW in BvS and now they are harvesting.
WW & Batgod are they tent poles, therefore more focus and wow must be attended to.

superman... we can reboot him since DCEU superman getting a mixed and isn't liked by many. bye bye Henry.

Whether Superman is alive or dead, he doesn't seem to be a part of WB's cinematic plans. Better to have Superman in the Supergirl TV series or have his own spin-off TV series. Superman seems to do well in TV than film.

 

[sf2]

But he isn't. You don't promote a film with posters and trailers with a incomplete group. Name one film where an supposed important member of an ensemble film wasn't promoted at all but had an important role in the actual film?

And the group are fine on their own from the looks of the footage that we have seen. The only thing that they need from superman is his strength and not his character.

well, they just did. the \S/ symbol is at least make it into the poster. we shouldn't complain i guess. lol

 

[vantheman77]

well, they just did. the \S/ symbol is at least make it into the poster. we shouldn't complain i guess. lol

It's like they're trying to build the DCU cinematic universe without Superman.

 

[AnneFan]

It's like they're trying to build the DCU cinematic universe without Superman.

Bringing the character back in a way that's been described as one of the best Superman moments of all time goes against that narrative.

 

[herolee10]

Bringing the character back in a way that's been described as one of the best Superman moments of all time goes against that narrative.

Curious AnneFan, do you think that it's at all realistically possible for them to do a give Superman good solo moments and still give him good team building moments?

 

[AnneFan]

Curious AnneFan, do you think that it's at all realistically possible for them to do a give Superman good solo moments and still give him good team building moments?

Yes. Count on it. I know you're anxious because we've seen nothing from Superman/Clark. But believe me, WB KNOW know fans like you feel about Superman. Just as they knew how people felt about BvS's tone. And they absolutely addressed that.

 

[herolee10]

Yes. Count on it. I know you're anxious because we've seen nothing from Superman/Clark. But believe me, WB KNOW know fans like you feel about Superman. Just as they knew how people felt about BvS's tone. And they absolutely addressed that.

The thing is though....one thing that BvS showed is that while they did address some of the complaints that they got from fans in MOS, none of it was really the important ones.

So while we may get a happy and more confident Superman, I'm worried and almost convinced that it's going to come at the cost of his screen time with the team.

I'm willing to bet a fortune that this gif is from when they arrived at the location for the final battle.

Which leads them to come across Stepp's forces and a long dangerous chase by the Parademons.

However, Superman is nowhere in sight for this sequence. And we know that this will escalate to the point where the skies turn red as a result of Stepp's actions.

So that most likely means that Superman will only arrive when things are already at their worse, leaving him with very little to do in the battle.

Plus, from what I double checked over the last few days...Henry spent very little time shooting on set, almost comparable to Gal's time for BvS. So that automatically implies that he doesn't have much to do from the start.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Yup... now that's a beautiful, inspiring, hope filled moment in a Superman story.

I know this has been said thousands of times, but I think that one scene, or something similar to it, Superman reaching out to just one person and relating to them on a human level, because they are both outsiders and were feeling lost, Superman inspiring the strength within that girl and her inspiring him, BVS could have benefitted so much from that! If they needed to chop a scene, it could have served the same purpose as the Jonathan Kent scene, and I think really served to underscore this idea of Superman inspiring the best in us.


I disagree that the previous films didn't show what Batman was saying, I just think an added scene or two like that could have driven the point to the audience in an emotional and relatable way.


Superman's presence should be divisive, that was the whole point of BvS. The presence of such a being would inspire both fear and hope. And he did inspire hope, there were several scenes that showed that. And Batman saw it as well, he just got blinded by fear. But when he got to know Superman, and saw his sacrifice, it made him understand what Superman stands for.


So, I think it's absolutely justified for Batman to have that line. I also think it's a bit of an over the top reaction to say that Superman won't be an integral and important part of Justice League, as a film or as a team. Especially when we haven't seen the film yet. His absence in the promotion is important, because we are meant to feel that absence. It's deliberately building so that we will really feel it when he returns.

I think it's very respectful and reverent to the character, and clever marketing IMO. Maybe he won't have as much screen time as the others, but that's 5 characters, three of whom we haven't even been introduced to in a significant way, yet. Superman will be there, and will be very important to the story, I have no concern about that.



"Shafting" him would be to just ignore him or cast him to the side or treat him as less important. And that was not the case with this previous trailer, IMO. The spirit of Superman, the symbol of Superman, was very much a part of that trailer. They don't need to show him yet. Just be patient, don't jump to conclusions, it's just a trailer. And honestly, after everything they gave away with the BvS trailers, I'm glad they're showing as little as possible

 

[herolee10]

I think it's very respectful and reverent to the character, and clever marketing IMO. Maybe he won't have as much screen time as the others, but that's 5 characters, three of whom we haven't even been introduced to in a significant way, yet. Superman will be there, and will be very important to the story, I have no concern about that.

"Shafting" him would be to just ignore him or cast him to the side or treat him as less important. And that was not the case with this previous trailer, IMO. The spirit of Superman, the symbol of Superman, was very much a part of that trailer. They don't need to show him yet. Just be patient, don't jump to conclusions, it's just a trailer. And honestly, after everything they gave away with the BvS trailers, I'm glad they're showing as little as possible

Shafting Superman is pretty much excluding him from all of the "once in a lifetime" posters and artwork. There will be nothing to show, other than the film itself, to demonstrate his contribution to the film.

It's also making him the biggest outsider of the group as well. Superman has also become a plot device and symbol rather than being the compelling character that he was in MOS an his only purpose for JL seems to be lending his assistance to an already established group.

Fans who have waited for most of their lives to see Superman properly interact with these heroes will have to wait longer because they won't get that in this film.

 

[Jumpman]

I think most of us know that won't be the case. If there is one thing that we can all agree on, it's that there will be some big sequence involving his revival. The issue here is how late he will join the others in the final fight and how he might not have much, if not any, time to properly interact with the group when all he'll isn't breaking loose. I mean loo at how Snyder crafted the Doomsday fight where Superman and Wonder Woman didn't really say or interact with each other.

Who the hell cares how late it arrives in the picture? Make no mistake, what we've seen from the JL trailers indicates a film that will heavily be around the character of Superman, no matter how much screen time he gets.

Snyder's entire trilogy is about the guy. This is the finale. Yes, this is not how everything was suppose to go when they began with MAN OF STEEL but you can't tell me, just by looking at the CC trailer, that that trailer isn't all about Supes.

There is a side story here that hasn't even been hinted yet that involves Lois Lane. And of course that involves Clark. Have a bit of patience on things right now. You're barely four months away from this film.

Superman has been and will continue to get his due. It may not be in the way that YOU exactly want it but I don't want to hear that these set of films haven't been about the big guy because they absolutely have.

 

[herolee10]

Who the hell cares how late it arrives in the picture? Make no mistake, what we've seen from the JL trailers indicates a film that will heavily be around the character of Superman, no matter how much screen time he gets.

Snyder's entire trilogy is about the guy. This is the finale. Yes, this is not how everything was suppose to go when they began with MAN OF STEEL but you can't tell me, just by looking at the CC trailer, that that trailer isn't all about Supes.

There is a side story here that hasn't even been hinted yet that involves Lois Lane. And of course that involves Clark. Have a bit of patience on things right now. You're barely four months away from this film.

Superman has been and will continue to get his due. It may not be in the way that YOU exactly want it but I don't want to hear that these set of films haven't been about the big guy because they absolutely have.

I care on how late he arrives in the film because at the end of the day, this is still a Justice League film which is supposed to be about all of heroes coming together as one.

If Superman is truly portrayed as the final member of the group, then it makes no sense for him to not have any decent interactions with the rest of the group. One of the biggest appeal of this film is seeing all of these individuals interact with each other. What's the point of getting excited as a superman fan for a JL film if he doesn't interact much with the group? Plus what is so exciting about seeing superman in action if he only appears in the finale for a brief time to help the others?

And while Superman may have been this so called trilogy's main plot point, he is clearly not its main protagonist. The main protagonist of a trilogy doesn't miss out on most of his third film.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I think the best i'm hoping for is:

1. They flesh out the world's positive reception to Superman's sacrifice.

2. The members of the league are all willing heroes, and almost function well together as a group... but there are problems to overcome. That they lack hope, they lack belief in each other, in themselves and can't see how they will win the fight. Something is missing for them.

3. That Superman's return GIVES them that hope, that belief in themselves and the ability to see they can win... that if this man can die and come back to life, and still keep fighting and still keep believing in a better world, maybe so can they.

I could get on board with a Justice League story like that.

It's no good if Superman just swoops in and defeats the bad guy when everyone else has been defeated. He needs to swoop in and help them all get back on to their feet so they can defeat the bad guy together, as a re energized unit.

At the end of the day, i've always tried to see MoS, BvS and beyond as an 'elseworlds' tale.

This is the 'What if Superman wasn't around when the Justice League was formed' story.

As long as this 'elseworlds' tale respects that JL is incomplete in some way without him, i'll be okay with it.

I think there are a couple of moments in the trailer that could almost allude to that - Batman being a no show for a while after Superman's death, Flash saying he's never been in to battle before, Aquaman saying he thinks they are all going to die, Bruce saying each of them has held back etc