Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"?

[jmc]

The main issue is we the audience are basically having to fill in a lot of blanks to make him a whole character. The inherent problem with the DCEU so far is that it's relied on the audience to have prior knowledge of who the characters are to make them meaningful. I was having this discussion with someone who was defending these films a few weeks back. During our debate I asked him if there was no history for him to fall back on, if you were to strip away the names and costumes, what is it about these particular characters that actually makes them good characters? To his credit he admitted that is was very hard for him to remove his knowledge of who these characters are in other media and to just look at they are in these particular films, he even accepted it was more than likely his love of the character that was ultimately warping his perception of just how good these movies actually are. Very insightful conversation.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

The main issue is we the audience are basically having to fill in a lot of blanks to make him a whole character. The inherent problem with the DCEU so far is that it's relied on the audience to have prior knowledge of who the characters are to make them meaningful. I was having this discussion with someone who was defending these films a few weeks back. During our debate I asked him if there was no history for him to fall back on, if you were to strip away the names and costumes, what is it about these particular characters that actually makes them good characters? To his credit he admitted that is was very hard for him to remove his knowledge of who these characters are in other media and to just look at they are in these particular films, he even accepted it was more than likely his love of the character that was ultimately warping his perception of just how good these movies actually are. Very insightful conversation.

And that is the biggest problem with the DCEU outside of the mediocre to bad scripts and haphazard editing. They don't focus on building up the big screen versions of these characters, they don't focus on making the characters likable or interesting or rootable (I know, not a word). And the dire ultra super serious no fun allowed tone makes the thin characterization flaw even more glaring.

Snyder is telling you to treat the proceedings deadly serious but he isn't giving you as much reason to care about it as he should. And plenty of movies work without being character pieces but those movies have great scripts, direction and editing and those films aren't building a cinematic universe. You have to give people a reason to keep coming back so I'm sorry but the characters have to be likable at the very least.

 

[jmc]

Rootable is a word in my country, lol.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Rootable is a word in my country, lol.

I just looked it up and I'm never using it again in the way that I just did!

 

[Herolee10]

When you try something 3 times within a 10 year span and it doesn't quite work, it's time to go back to the drawing board. I feel like all WB heard when sifting through Superman Returns complaints is that it didn't have enough action/lacked a physical villain. I feel like they almost completely ignored the complaints about Superman's personality, despite that being complained about almost as much as the lack of action complaints.

The mopey Superman angle just isn't clicking with as many people as it should. Hell, I'm a Man of Steel defender and even I wanted him to lighten up in the sequel that I thought WB would make. And I wish that I could have faith that BvS marked the end of the mopey Superman decade but the Justice League director believes that he has nailed the character so...it's difficult to get my hopes up.

You know, the irony here is that we've seen comic book writers who have successfully modernized Superman with stories like "Birthright" and "Secret Origins" so I don't know why it's so difficult to get Superman done right on camera.

And plus, I'd like to point out to our detractors that none of us question on whether Superman will be in this film. Our biggest gripe here is that there aren't a lot of signs to indicate that Superman will have a substantial role in this film.

Some folks may be satisfied with just seeing Superman have one supposed awesome scene for when he returns but others wanted to see the guy actually get a more meaty role in this film.

And for those that say that "you know never know on what they might have in stored for his character", this is the same Director and Studio that cut out most of Superman's scenes in the theatrical cut of BvS, prevented him from interacting or learning about the other JL members and Wonder Woman in BvS, and gave Batman the leadership/team player role that's mostly associated with Superman's character.

And why do we keep bringing this up? Because every time Snyder releases something good for JL, it just constantly reminds us on how much has been robbed from the character. Unless the dceu is rebooted, don't ever expect to get any JL films where Superman has a large meaty role with the group that doesn't involve going evil.

Some people are fine with Superman being a silent plot device that isn't present for most of the JL film, others... not so much.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

You really are just going to post the same thing every single day until you see the film.

 

[Herolee10]

You really are just going to post the same thing every single day until you see the film.

 

[Micromind]

Edit.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

See... I'm not sure that's like, healthy, or something to be proud of lee. You do you but it seems like a big waste of your time to come here every day and spend any time stating the same thing over and over. I mean... Why? The films already in the can. There is no way any internet "movement" is changing anything on that front. It's not gonna change anything for you because... How much "venting" on the subject of fictional characters does one man really need? And it's not changing anything regarding attitudes around here. I'm not saying don't have your opinion, think like others. You dislike the handling of the character? Okay. It's even your right to come an kvetch every day... But I mean... Really? That's it. You can do that, come here every single day and do the exact same thing, and make no mistake lee that is what you are doing, but... Really? What do you or anyone else get out of the same comments and arguments each and every day? While you are not in any way doing what Mad Love is now... The actions both beg the question what do you get out of it? With Mad it's obvious now it's not about anything close to being legitimate. It's just stupid incitement. I do have to ask... What is so great lee about coming here to say how depressed you are, how you don't get other posters that are looking forward to seeing the film (and Superman in it), about how you dislike the DCEU in the same way essentially all the time? Why? Why not take like, two weeks away instead and come back with, I don't know... At least something else to complain about? See, I'm not asking you to like anything lee. I'm not asking you to change your opinion. But can you change it up at least?

 

[Herolee10]

See... I'm not sure that's like, healthy, or something to be proud of lee. You do you but it seems like a big waste of your time to come here every day and spend any time stating the same thing over and over. I mean... Why? The films already in the can. There is no way any internet "movement" is changing anything on that front. It's not gonna change anything for you because... How much "venting" on the subject of fictional characters does one man really need? And it's not changing anything regarding attitudes around here. I'm not saying don't have your opinion, think like others. You dislike the handling of the character? Okay. It's even your right to come an kvetch every day... But I mean... Really? That's it. You can do that, come here every single day and do the exact same thing, and make no mistake lee that is what you are doing, but... Really? What do you or anyone else get out of the same comments and arguments each and every day? While you are not in any way doing what Mad Love is now... The actions both beg the question what do you get out of it? With Mad it's obvious now it's not about anything close to being legitimate. It's just stupid incitement. I do have to ask... What is so great lee about coming here to say how depressed you are, how you don't get other posters that are looking forward to seeing the film (and Superman in it), about how you dislike the DCEU in the same way essentially all the time? Why? Why not take like, two weeks away instead and come back with, I don't know... At least something else to complain about? See, I'm not asking you to like anything lee. I'm not asking you to change your opinion. But can you change it up at least?

You'd be surprised in how much of a relief I feel whenever I post one of my rants here every now and then. Not so much because I'm so crazed Superman fan who doesn't have anything better to do, but with my regular day-to-day activities at work, I actually find a sense of release just channeling all of that energy and just releasing it into posts.

Now, I do get upset every now and then whenever we get new JL material, sans Superman, and I know that my rants won't make a lick of difference on the actual product, but I find expressing my thoughts just on a impulse on these threads to be somewhat of a stress relief if that makes any sense.lol

One thing that I've learned is that if a person has got something to say, then just say it (as long as you don't insult anyone or make personal attacks towards them)...even if it's the same thing over and over again, if something's bothering you, just say it.

Honestly, before this thread, I know that there were other posters such as myself who weren't at all thrilled on how Superman was being treated in the DCEU, so I figured that what better place to find a more focused area to throw all of that frustration out in the open?

If people don't like what we have to say because they find it annoying, then they could always simply just put us on ignore.

 

[sf2]

That's exactly what I want, just for Snyder to not screw up superman any further! I could care less about superman's screen time or even his portrayal as long as Snyder packs his s**t up and leaves superman (and hopefully the DCEU) forever after JL.



I feel ya Herolee but honestly why would you want see more superman in promotions or in screen time? Just think about it the best thing right now for superman to have a minimal presence in any Zack Snyder film otherwise you end up getting the same rubbish you did with BvS.
They should keep superman's presence to a minimal in JL if for nothing else to wash away the stink of his portrayal in BvS.



You know when one looks at these photos they'd think that Clark is sad but then when they watch the movie they realize that this is how Clark looks almost the entire time so maybe it's just his face.

almost the entire time??? exaggerate much???
clark kent has never been treated and portrayed this good in all the previous superman movies. yes and it is a fact, not an opinion.

 

[The Endless]

This isn't Superman. It's the Plutonian or Hyperion or Sentry... in a Superman costume.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

This isn't Superman. It's the Plutonian or Hyperion or Sentry... in a Superman costume.

Based on... What? The Zod thing? Is that really all it come down too? Cuz what precisely makes Cav-el Supes an analog with those characters?

 

[AvegningSpider]

Maybe that he acts more like the Sentry than Superman. I think that's what Endless is trying to say mate.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

You'd be surprised in how much of a relief I feel whenever I post one of my rants here every now and then. Not so much because I'm so crazed Superman fan who doesn't have anything better to do, but with my regular day-to-day activities at work, I actually find a sense of release just channeling all of that energy and just releasing it into posts.

Now, I do get upset every now and then whenever we get new JL material, sans Superman, and I know that my rants won't make a lick of difference on the actual product, but I find expressing my thoughts just on a impulse on these threads to be somewhat of a stress relief if that makes any sense.lol

One thing that I've learned is that if a person has got something to say, then just say it (as long as you don't insult anyone or make personal attacks towards them)...even if it's the same thing over and over again, if something's bothering you, just say it.

Honestly, before this thread, I know that there were other posters such as myself who weren't at all thrilled on how Superman was being treated in the DCEU, so I figured that what better place to find a more focused area to throw all of that frustration out in the open?

If people don't like what we have to say because they find it annoying, then they could always simply just put us on ignore.

Thing is... Are you doing this just in this, the appropriate thread? Fine. But are you? Or are you doing this in multiple threads nearly everyday? Multiple times a day. This is getting to FF 2014 levels... AFTER that film came out. You're free to do what you want lee but... It's not adding anything of value to the community here. It's literally the same spiel every day. I don't get what we or you get out of it that's constructive, enlightening, entertaining or engaging. There's not even simple communication going on. You are dug in with no chance of anything changing your mind. So too with most everyone else whose opinion is opposite of yours.

You do you but... I fail to see any profit for all the effort being put in, for you or us.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Maybe that he acts more like the Sentry than Superman. I think that's what Endless is trying to say mate.

Again... make a claim... back it up. Sentry literally was a split being, two sides of a coin where one was a genocidal monster. Uh... How is DCEU Superman that way?

I don't have issues with differing opinions. I have a problem with the overly dramatic hyberbolic bovine excrement that fans pass off as meaningful and well thought out analysis though. Especially when those over the top comments actually have no truthful underpinnings in the first place.

 

[Herolee10]

Thing is... Are you doing this just in this, the appropriate thread? Fine. But are you? Or are you doing this in multiple threads nearly everyday? Multiple times a day. This is getting to FF 2014 levels... AFTER that film came out. You're free to do what you want lee but... It's not adding anything of value to the community here. It's literally the same spiel every day. I don't get what we or you get out of it that's constructive, enlightening, entertaining or engaging. There's not even simple communication going on. You are dug in with no chance of anything changing your mind. So too with most everyone else whose opinion is opposite of yours.

You do you but... I fail to see any profit for all the effort being put in, for you or us.

Well to be fair, I don't think anything that I've ever posted (sans news info from the DC-TV threads) were ever constructive or helpful.

I just post because I like expressing my thoughts. Am I forcing people to read my posts? They are more than welcome to put me on ignore and then end of story. And seeing as how most of the people here are in a tight-knit community, I doubt you'd have them quoting me so that their friends would still see my posts even when they've put me on ignore.

If anything that I throw out gets the attention of someone else, then I just go back and forth in a endless debate with them really. But yeah, it's no one's business but my own.

Though I'd gladly shut up if we actually got something from Snyder that was actually decent for the character regarding this film. Until we get anything sufficient, I don't plan on backing down from this issue.

 

[AvegningSpider]

I can't neceseraly agree that he is like the Sentry. Cavill's and by extension, Snyder's Sups isn't those levels of edgerlordiness.

 

[DerekLake]

almost the entire time??? exaggerate much???
clark kent has never been treated and portrayed this good in all the previous superman movies. yes and it is a fact, not an opinion.

Yes, this is perhaps the most serious, high-quality take on the character yet. I certainly felt that way about Man of Steel. And even BvS does make a big deal about what Superman's impact on Earth is. It's just that BvS spends an entire film making the audience feel sorry for (or alternatively, frustrated with) Superman, when I think most of us just wanted to feel the same way about him that people do about Batman in this and other films.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

The main issue is we the audience are basically having to fill in a lot of blanks to make him a whole character. The inherent problem with the DCEU so far is that it's relied on the audience to have prior knowledge of who the characters are to make them meaningful. I was having this discussion with someone who was defending these films a few weeks back. During our debate I asked him if there was no history for him to fall back on, if you were to strip away the names and costumes, what is it about these particular characters that actually makes them good characters? To his credit he admitted that is was very hard for him to remove his knowledge of who these characters are in other media and to just look at they are in these particular films, he even accepted it was more than likely his love of the character that was ultimately warping his perception of just how good these movies actually are. Very insightful conversation.

I think that is a fair point. I like that they get you, the viewer, to fill in blanks. I think Sopranos did a great job with this kind of storytelling. But character development is something that needs to be shown on screen.

As a fan of BvS and a fan of Superman (the character, in general, and Cavill as Superman), I understand where people are coming from, and that would be one of my critiques of the DCEU so far.


I love that they put Superman in a position to have to make the choice of killing Zod, I love that they are showing a Superman who is struggling with his role in the world, but I'd like to see more development of who he is as a person, and like the above poster says, not just in a montage of a scene of him saving somebody, but more talking, more interaction, more emotional moments, more of him being a genuine, real person. If they're taking the time to show the progression of Clark becoming Superman (which I really like), then it's a perfect opportunity to develop him as an overall person, show why he's such a good hearted guy, why he is a role model, not as a superhero, but as a man. I appreciated the scene of him and Lois in the tub, but it still felt a little cold and distant to me. I really liked the stuff with him in the Daily Planet and his interaction with Perry, though.

But, going forward, I'd like to see more development of who he is, to show non fans why he's such a beloved character to fans. I feel like the Marvel films have done a pretty good job of this, with Cap and Tony Stark. And it's definitely possible to do. Like many have already said, just let Cavill be his natural self, he seems like a really genuine and charming dude, and very Clark-like

 

[sf2]

Yes, this is perhaps the most serious, high-quality take on the character yet. I certainly felt that way about Man of Steel. And even BvS does make a big deal about what Superman's impact on Earth is. It's just that BvS spends an entire film making the audience feel sorry for (or alternatively, frustrated with) Superman, when I think most of us just wanted to feel the same way about him that people do about Batman in this and other films.

ya, i know... many of us ask for a light, simple, fun and action packed superman movie only...
.
.
.

they did too much... and thought too deep.

 

[Micromind]

Snyder gave us Clark Kent doing some real work as an investigative journalist for the first time, in earlier movies, Clark Kent was a journalist who just sat typing some article on his typewriter in his Office, he was never shown working as a journalist in the real world.

Which is a huge improvement in my book.

 

[kguillou]

I was so happy to see that in the UC. Going into BvS one lf the big things I was looking forward to was seeing Clark Kent the reporter. I still wanted more of it.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Yeah that's a good point, other movies don't show much of that, and it was a great way to show the kind of things Clark cares about and prioritizes, really cool that they had him concerned about Batman targeting the poorer areas (obviously because areas of poverty usually have much higher crime rates, due to desperation). It's cool they incorporated those ideas into the film, and whatever issues anybody has with the movie, I think they do deserve props for that.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Supes is supposed to be dead so why would they show us one of the biggest plot points of the movie? So no i don't think he's getting the shaft.