Batman Begins Joe Chill is the biggest problem of BB

[WalterKovacs]

When Bill Finger says that Joe Chill killed Batman's parents then Joe Chill killed Batman's parents. Batman is not out every night to catch the killer. He is there to fight crime and save innocent people.

QFT

If it were just vengeance, why would he fight the penguin or catwoman or random thugs? Batman isnt out there for revenge. They spend most of the movie talking about that, a vigilante can be destroyed or forgotten. Batman is out there to make sure that nobody finds themselves in the situation he did when he was 8 years old.

vengeance isnt heroism, its self-serving. if that were the case, he'd kill joe chill and hang up the cape and cowl for good

 

[WalterKovacs]

I love Batman Begins... and it is one of my favorite films of all time, as well as -- IMO -- very faithful to the comics.

BUT...

The biggest problem with the film... and it pisses me off so much... for the obvious reason, and then another reason... is the fact that Joe Chill is caught. NO!! The reason for Batman to exist is because his parents killer was never caught!! Not because he was... UGHHHHHH. Batman is out every night, looking for him, and hoping to find him... but deep down knowing he never will. It's bothered me so much, and I wonder if it bothers you all as much as it does me.

Joe Chill should have gotten away, and not have been caught... but, okay... whatever, he's caught in BB(I can live with that)... then finally they let him go and KILL him, but he shouldn't have been killed!!

Sure Batman Begins isn't perfect... as much as I want it to be, it never will.

But... if the Joe Chill stuff was cut, we could have had better editing for the last half of the film!!... meaning not as jumpy with the climax(ending scenes)...

Maybe we could have even got Leslie Tompkins... oh well.

Who's version of batman have you been reading/watching?

 

[Damiean Dark]

QFT

If it were just vengeance, why would he fight the penguin or catwoman or random thugs? Batman isnt out there for revenge. They spend most of the movie talking about that, a vigilante can be destroyed or forgotten. Batman is out there to make sure that nobody finds themselves in the situation he did when he was 8 years old.

vengeance isnt heroism, its self-serving. if that were the case, he'd kill joe chill and hang up the cape and cowl for good

In Batman forever bruce does have a good explanation when he is trying to persuade dick gayson not to try to kill harvey he says something along the lines of that you base your whole life on vengence imagining every criminal is the person who killed your parents but when you finally catch the real killer its not enough to fill the void and you go out into the night to catch another and another in a neverending circle.

Batman is all about vengence imo imaginary or real it all stems from capturing the waynes killer batman ISNT SUPERMAN he isnt all goodness and light he is the grim reality of fighting crime.

BF was a neon nightmare at times but it had some good moments to it.

 

[El Payaso]

Both Batman 89 and Batman Begins had serious changes from the source. Joker never killed the Waynes (although I think he was involved according to the original Tom Mankiewicz script. I also think he was a witness of the murder which makes Joker as older than Batman as it was on B89) and sure, Joe Chill was never caught and that's the original motivation for Bruce to become Batman: system doesn't work.

But I'm glad to admit that for me both changes worked pretty well on every movie. Joker being the killer gave a solid reason for the legendary Batman-Joker hostility (beyond the 'we hate each other because we symbolize opposites' - wtf - situation) and on BB the way Chill was going to be released and then the same corruption that forced Chill to kill killed Chill (sounds funny I know).

I think the issue was not only very well handled by Nolan and Goyer but it was quite intelligent and served many purposes on the story.

 

[silentflute]

"All he wanted was money. He was sick and guilty over what he did. I was naïve enough to think him the lowest sort of man."

That was one of the best things in DKR. But Frank Miller has forgotten these things. In interviews today he says things like "Batman's a dick".

How does Miller stating that Batman is a dick negate/conflict with "these things" in DKR?

 

[silentflute]

I love Batman Begins... and it is one of my favorite films of all time, as well as -- IMO -- very faithful to the comics.

BUT...

The biggest problem with the film... and it pisses me off so much... for the obvious reason, and then another reason... is the fact that Joe Chill is caught. NO!! The reason for Batman to exist is because his parents killer was never caught!! Not because he was... UGHHHHHH. Batman is out every night, looking for him, and hoping to find him... but deep down knowing he never will. It's bothered me so much, and I wonder if it bothers you all as much as it does me.

Joe Chill should have gotten away, and not have been caught... but, okay... whatever, he's caught in BB(I can live with that)... then finally they let him go and KILL him, but he shouldn't have been killed!!

Sure Batman Begins isn't perfect... as much as I want it to be, it never will.

But... if the Joe Chill stuff was cut, we could have had better editing for the last half of the film!!... meaning not as jumpy with the climax(ending scenes)...

Maybe we could have even got Leslie Tompkins... oh well.

I agree with you 100% re:Chill.In fact, I've always felt that killer should never even have been given the name 'Joe Chill'.There should be no history,no association, no name-nothing identifiable to Bruce.His sole purpose was to be a faceless, nameless killer that represents the idea of random crime.

 

[El Payaso]

I agree with you 100% re:Chill.In fact, I've always felt that killer should never even have been given the name 'Joe Chill'.There should be no history,no association, no name-nothing identifiable to Bruce.His sole purpose was to be a faceless, nameless killer that represents the idea of random crime.

That's the bit about B89 that works for me. The killer is never found or identified while Bruce is a kid and grows preparing himself to fight crime. He only knows way after Batman is already there.

 

[Damiean Dark]

That's the bit about B89 that works for me. The killer is never found or identified while Bruce is a kid and grows preparing himself to fight crime. He only knows way after Batman is already there.

Agreed Bruce is already at the point of no return

 

[Cain]

I agree with Frank Miller I've always interpreted that way. The only reason I like Chill never found though is cause it's subtle but awesome social commentary. It's always worked to the narrative's advantage in that sense really painting it as a hopeless city where not even the murders of 2 of it's most prestigious citizens could be solved. Partly due to the incompetence of those sworn to uphold justice. It's good stuff and that's why I got why it was made canon for quite a while post-crisis.

That being said I never took it ever as Batman wanting vengeance his quest has never ever been about that. It's the only reason the scene with Bruce wanting to kill Chill irked me because by that point in his life he knew better if he had been 15 or something I would've probably bought it. Yes he's still that kid who saw his parents get gunned down in front of him emotionally but he's also a mature individual. He was forced to become precocious. Still it worked within the context of the story Goyer came up with and it's just another retelling so it doesn't destroy the movie for me either.

I never felt Goyer took advantage of over 60 years of Batman mythology at all.

If it were up to me a Batman origin film will go a little something as follows at least the first 40 or so minutes of it

I'd feature Bruce going to North Korea to train in martial arts with Master Kirigi. Then go to Japan to understand the functions of an organized criminal mind & the way of the samurai from Yakuza member and samurai Tsunemoto. After that he'll head to China to understand assassins by training with both Lady Shiva and David Cain. Then out to Paris to learn detection and hunting from Henri Ducard.

He'll come back to the U.S. head to the Alaskan mountains and learn to be a tracker from Willy Doggett. Then train with former heavy weight champ Ted Grant in the ways of the boxing style. Learn how to be a theatrical illusionist and escape artist from John Zatara as well as romance his daughter Zatanna. Join the FBI academy (which oddly enough was from a story that was cited as a huge influence on the film). Study criminology and psychology at college and also learn a different method of detection from Ducard's by training with PI Harvey Harris.

All of that while still not fully covering Batman's origin and making changes and adaptations in it's own right is infinitely more faithful to the mythos much more interesting and much more epic than what was presented in that film.

By the same token though I think it's time fanboys start letting go of the pretense we hold towards some of these comic movies. I include myself as well by the way as I was very dissapointed by BB when it was first released but have grown to accept it for what it is.

They will never be our idea on screen so just take them for what they are these guys are professional at the end of the day and if they come up with something that's good we should accept it.

Goyer's changes to his origin andmythos were still functionable though. Within the context of the story he was trying to tell about the theme of fear & justice the changes he made to the characters history worked. The theme of a young man being driven to become a beacon of justice was still there though it was presented completely different from what anybody who knows Batman comic's history would've ever guessed. So I think he should be commended for that it was the base for a good flick. It's not like with Elektra or Ghost Rider or anything that type deserves the criticism cause nothing is ever tried with any heart from the filmmakers when it comes those properties. It's noticeable on screen that they don't really care and have other intentions.

 

[Damiean Dark]

In Batman forever bruce does have a good explanation when he is trying to persuade dick gayson not to try to kill harvey its an explanation i think applies to batman in the comics, he says something along the lines of that you base your whole life on vengence imagining every criminal is the person who killed your parents but when you finally catch the real killer its not enough to fill the void and you go out into the night to catch another and another in a neverending circle.

Batman is all about vengence imo imaginary or real it all stems from capturing the waynes killer batman ISNT SUPERMAN he isnt all goodness and light he is the grim reality of fighting crime.

I cant beleive anyone thinks batman isnt ALL about vengence for his parents.

 

[Cain]

In Batman forever bruce does have a good explanation when he is trying to persuade dick gayson not to try to kill harvey its an explanation i think applies to batman in the comics, he says something along the lines of that you base your whole life on vengence imagining every criminal is the person who killed your parents but when you finally catch the real killer its not enough to fill the void and you go out into the night to catch another and another in a neverending circle.

Batman is all about vengence imo imaginary or real it all stems from capturing the waynes killer batman ISNT SUPERMAN he isnt all goodness and light he is the grim reality of fighting crime.

I cant beleive anyone thinks batman isnt ALL about vengence for his parents.

That only applies to the film universe that movie is set in it has nothing to do with the comics. You miss the part that it's a contextual quote by that point this guy after finding his monster (Napier) and defeating him still feels an emptyness inside. He loses himself by giving in to his demons and becomes a wreckless man until he sees a reflection of himself in the woman he loves. He fails at saving her and helping her reach redemption so he is still bittersweet about it. He has matured to the point that he saw the error of his ways and is now looking to prevent another lost soul (Dick Grayson) from going down the same path that caused him a great deal of pain.

In the comics Joe Chill isn't caught but that just teaches Bruce from a very young age that his city is hopeless. It forces precociousness on him and shows him the real world. If his high profile parents can't have their killer brought to justice than chances are no other child's parents could either. The criminals always end up winning because the city is lawless and corrupt by that point. That is why he chooses to become a beacon of justice to bring hope and righteousness back to Gotham not for the sake of vengeance.

 

[Angeloz]

I think many do. Some think the Joe Chill was one of the flaw in BB. Even if some of us like the film, it don't mean we will ignore some flaws.

I view film and comics as being alternate realities. While I could potentially object to things. Like "Batman & Robin" treating the characters as a complete joke (as well as other things that I might have forgotten). I can accept that there are and will be differences.

Both Batman 89 and Batman Begins had serious changes from the source. Joker never killed the Waynes (although I think he was involved according to the original Tom Mankiewicz script. I also think he was a witness of the murder which makes Joker as older than Batman as it was on B89) and sure, Joe Chill was never caught and that's the original motivation for Bruce to become Batman: system doesn't work.

But I'm glad to admit that for me both changes worked pretty well on every movie. Joker being the killer gave a solid reason for the legendary Batman-Joker hostility (beyond the 'we hate each other because we symbolize opposites' - wtf - situation) and on BB the way Chill was going to be released and then the same corruption that forced Chill to kill killed Chill (sounds funny I know).

I think the issue was not only very well handled by Nolan and Goyer but it was quite intelligent and served many purposes on the story.

Interesting.

Angeloz

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Joe Chill is absolutely necessary and the fact that he was brought somehow to justice is what distinguishes Batman from some lame cliche "mummy and daddy are dead you are so evil" anti-hero.

 

[Artistsean]

I like that Batman is on a mission to make himself un-needed much better than he is looking for his parent's killer. That could have been part of it, but I think Batman would see the bigger picture and focus on that.

There was a comic where Batman finally found Joe Chill, years after Batman started in Gothem so all criminals new and feared him.
He revealed himself to Joe Chill and that Joe's murding his parents created him.
Joe went to his criminal friends, most likely scared, and told them what happened, and they killed him for creating Batman.
(I read a summery of that comic somewhere)

Since his killer was found and killed he would stop if that was his only reason for being Batman, but it isn't. I think he is out to stop another young Bruce wayne from loosing his parents. Make his mission meaningless. Make it so that he can stop being Batman.

 

[Damiean Dark]

That comic sounds awful jeez the should NEVER have even given the waynes killer a name DCs reliance on batman causes them to sometimes come up with some really crappy stuff, the same applies to superman too imo.

 

[Cain]

The killer being found or not being found is always retconned in and out it's never constant. Right now they're back to the Joe Chill stuff again but before Infinite Crisis he was never found.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

I hate this whole "he sees his parents killer in the face of every criminal" crap.

 

[Cain]

But do you know why that is? it's definitely not for the purpose of vengeance but to establish that there are hundreds of Joe Chill's out there. That Gotham has become such a cesspool that petty criminals could get away with murdering two of it's most valuable citizens and nothing gets resolved. It's a city in need of saving and somebody who symbolizes justice, enter Batman putting an end to the rotten shell the city has become and turning things around for the better again. Showing the city that there are still some who uphold everything that justice stands for amongst them.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

But do you know why that is? it's definitely not for the purpose of vengeance but to establish that there are hundreds of Joe Chill's out there. That Gotham has become such a cesspool that petty criminals could get away with murdering two of it's most valuable citizens and nothing gets resolved. It's a city in need of saving and somebody who symbolizes justice, enter Batman putting an end to the rotten shell the city has become and turning things around for the better again. Showing the city that there are still some who uphold everything that justice stands for amongst them.

I always thought Bruce Wayne is too intelligent to think he is some kind of "exclusive" victim and be so egoistical about his "mission".

 

[Cain]

I always thought Bruce Wayne is too intelligent to think he is some kind of "exclusive" victim and be so egoistical about his "mission".

You miss the poitn entirely there is absolutely nothing selfish about it. It took his parents being gunned down by a random murderer for him to learn the reality of Gotham's demise. He since dedicated his life to preventing that from happening to anybody else by bringing some hope back to the city by becoming it's symbol of justice. He waged a war on crime because of that not a war on petty thiefs who only target parents walking down dark alleys with their kid. Joe Chill was just part of a whole and his parents murder was the wake up call that made him conscious to that.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

You miss the poitn entirely there is absolutely nothing selfish about it. It took his parents being gunned down by a random murderer for him to learn the reality of Gotham's demise. He since dedicated his life to preventing that from happening to anybody else by bringing some hope back to the city by becoming it's symbol of justice. He waged a war on crime because of that not a war on petty thiefs who only target parents walking down dark alleys with their kid. Joe Chill was just part of a whole and his parents murder was the wake up call that made him conscious to that.

of course - but that's not the approach that became dominant in the DCU Batman after Zero Hour (and the Burton batman movies).

 

[Cain]

The events of Zero Hour were retconned.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

The events of Zero Hour were retconned.

well, for Morrison's Batman, yes. But Dini's Batman is still somehow off.

 

[Cain]

well, for Morrison's Batman, yes. But Dini's Batman is still somehow off.

Infinite Crisis deemed all the events from that cross-over irrelevant. Morisson and Dini's work takes place in New Earth which DC has yet to even fully explain yet. In any case after Zero Hour when Joe Chill wasn't caught it never meant Batman was after vengeance. He just saw the murderer of his parents as an example of what went wrong with Gotham City.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Infinite Crisis deemed all the events from that cross-over irrelevant. Morisson and Dini's work takes place in New Earth which DC has yet to even fully explain yet. In any case after Zero Hour when Joe Chill wasn't caught it never meant Batman was after vengeance. He just saw the murderer of his parents as an example of what went wrong with Gotham City.

I know that