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Batman Begins Joe Chill is the biggest problem of BB

I know that :huh:

What I'm saying is any similarities betwen pre-IC Batman and New Earth Batman are coincidental based on it being the same character but not meant to mean it's the same guy. This new Batman has yet to be fully explained yet.
 
I love Batman Begins... and it is one of my favorite films of all time, as well as -- IMO -- very faithful to the comics.

BUT...

The biggest problem with the film... and it pisses me off so much... for the obvious reason, and then another reason... is the fact that Joe Chill is caught. NO!! The reason for Batman to exist is because his parents killer was never caught!! Not because he was... UGHHHHHH. Batman is out every night, looking for him, and hoping to find him... but deep down knowing he never will. It's bothered me so much, and I wonder if it bothers you all as much as it does me.

Joe Chill should have gotten away, and not have been caught... but, okay... whatever, he's caught in BB(I can live with that)... then finally they let him go and KILL him, but he shouldn't have been killed!!

Sure Batman Begins isn't perfect... as much as I want it to be, it never will.

But... if the Joe Chill stuff was cut, we could have had better editing for the last half of the film!!... meaning not as jumpy with the climax(ending scenes)...

Maybe we could have even got Leslie Tompkins... oh well.

Well the whole thing with Joe Chill was he got away with killing the Waynes and Bruce never got justice.

This hasn't changed in BB. Yes Chill is caught and sent to prison but he is released early because he struck a deal. This leaves Bruce feeling justice has not been served. He is then murdered and this time it leaves bruce knowing justice will never fully be served. Chill won't pay for his crimes. Its the same thing just different execution.

BB still leaves bruce feeling chill never really payed for his parents deaths.
 
Well the whole thing with Joe Chill was he got away with killing the Waynes and Bruce never got justice.

This hasn't changed in BB. Yes Chill is caught and sent to prison but he is released early because he struck a deal. This leaves Bruce feeling justice has not been served. He is then murdered and this time it leaves bruce knowing justice will never fully be served. Chill won't pay for his crimes. Its the same thing just different execution.

BB still leaves bruce feeling chill never really payed for his parents deaths.

Eh. Joe Chill is dead. Justice served. :dry:
 
Not really killing someone doesn't always mean justice. Especially to someone like Bruce Wayne/Batman who is against killing criminals.

When he's carrying a gun on him? Although he did face that issue later and doesn't do it later in the film.

Angeloz
 
I always thought Bruce Wayne is too intelligent to think he is some kind of "exclusive" victim and be so egoistical about his "mission".

Intelligent yes, but Wayne has always been obsessesd with his mission he is still thought by some to be as crazy as the criminals he catches, he just operates in a different way. The batman/joker dynamic is always a good example the old your just like me joker quote has been used for years its a quote that always seems to rile batman i think because it is closer to reality then he would care to admit.
 
You miss the poitn entirely there is absolutely nothing selfish about it. It took his parents being gunned down by a random murderer for him to learn the reality of Gotham's demise. He since dedicated his life to preventing that from happening to anybody else by bringing some hope back to the city by becoming it's symbol of justice. He waged a war on crime because of that not a war on petty thiefs who only target parents walking down dark alleys with their kid. Joe Chill was just part of a whole and his parents murder was the wake up call that made him conscious to that.

Agree. :):up:
 
Bruce though that killing chill would bring justice. watching Chill die did not bring any justice to the world. It just furthered a corrupt world. To mean having Joe Chill in this movie made chill a symbol and more then just a man who killed batmans parents.
 
I was surprised when Chill was shot, but the look on Bruce's face said it all. "Now What"? That path led to to Falcone, which led him to Ras, which led him to Batman. There are bigger fish to fry. Rachel said it "Gotham creates new Joe Chills everyday."
 
I love Batman Begins... and it is one of my favorite films of all time, as well as -- IMO -- very faithful to the comics.

BUT...

The biggest problem with the film... and it pisses me off so much... for the obvious reason, and then another reason... is the fact that Joe Chill is caught. NO!! The reason for Batman to exist is because his parents killer was never caught!! Not because he was... UGHHHHHH. Batman is out every night, looking for him, and hoping to find him... but deep down knowing he never will. It's bothered me so much, and I wonder if it bothers you all as much as it does me.

Joe Chill should have gotten away, and not have been caught... but, okay... whatever, he's caught in BB(I can live with that)... then finally they let him go and KILL him, but he shouldn't have been killed!!

Sure Batman Begins isn't perfect... as much as I want it to be, it never will.

But... if the Joe Chill stuff was cut, we could have had better editing for the last half of the film!!... meaning not as jumpy with the climax(ending scenes)...

Maybe we could have even got Leslie Tompkins... oh well.


ah how the misinformed roll there tongue. Easy mistake to make if your only going by Post Crisis time line where Joe was never caught. But pre crisis Joe was found and Batman came to terms with the killer (some where around the 1960's I believe). and now Joe is back in the comics timeline as the know killer of his parents.

Now it was very impronat for them to have chill in there to establish like any other person out there that Bruce would want revenage for what this man had down. Having Joe in the movie raised the emotional bar, because we got to see Bruce at his weakest almost about to use the very thing that took away his parents.

I would rather have an emotional scene like that then a huge long action scene, like what you suggested. That would competly remove the emotional grasp they were trying to set for the audience.
 
Reading all your posts pulled a new layer back... and I'm glad I brought the subject up, if not it would still be bothering me to this day. It does add a new emotional layer, and you all are right.

But, there's still something about it. I'm much more familiar with the older comics, as opposed to what's coming out today... and in Bob Kane's depiction, Joe Chill was never caught. A faceless person, and like I said... he's out there each night making things right and hoping one day he will find that man, but KNOWS deep down he NEVER will, and even if he did he wouldn't even know. That's what drives him.

And, I'm not saying throw more action into the film, lol... just better editing for the final scenes. It's very rushed and thrown together, and if the Chill stuff was cut, then it wouldn't have been as erratic. The ending scenes for me are so hard to watch.
 
When I first read about that plot point (damn newspapers never heard of a spoiler) I was a bit worried. My friend Cody, who is such a hardcore Bat-freak that on opening day he went to the movie dressed in Batman costume made for 5-year olds, ordered Bat-popcorn with Bat-butter and even a Bat-soda, was livid that Joe Chill was caught.

I think I seriously almost ruined the excitement for him. Anyway, after he walked out of the theater he said something like, "Ternes, when you first told me that the police caught Joe Chill I was really worried. But the way they did it was actually pretty decent."

It's the way we both felt. So there's my 2 cents.
 
I agree, but for profoundly different reasons.

"Joe Chill" was simply a name assigned to an otherwise John Doe in the comics. It's been suggested, at various points in canon, that Batman's parent's killer ranges from an unnamed thug, to a hired assassin ordered to hit the Waynes, to Superman's nemesis Metallo (as John Corben). Some have even mused that he is the son of a disgruntled employee of the Wayne's. Though in the end most have left both his identity and name open ended.

This is where I have a problem with Batman Begins. Joe Chill is supposed to represent an any-man and everyman in crime. There is nothing remotely special or distinct about him except in Bruce's mind; namely that he killed Bruce's parents. The point of him not being caught though is to further Bruce's development. Bruce will most likely never find his parents killer, certainly not after all these years, when it's most likely he is dead or already imprisoned (or both). Therefore it is not a single man who kills the Wayne's but a corrupt society.

Also, look at the original story from another angle. Not catching Joe Chill proved not only to Bruce, but to Gotham, the ineptitude and corruption that existed within those who were sworn to protect them. The police were unable to do their job effectively and the world of Gotham crumbles because of it. This makes Bruce's mission all the more important. In Batman Begins justice essentially prevails. Despite Chill's assassination, he serves his time admireably, seems genuinely repentant, and first and foremost was caught in the first place. Mobsters wanting to shut him up at this point becomes immaterial.

Also Batman Begins made the same mistake Spider-Man did in trying to paint the villain as sympathetic. I do sympathtize with Goyer's Joe Chill, he's desperate and wants money, he's scared, and doesn't really seem to understand the consequences or his own actions in that situation. Batman's killer should seem malicious, dark and should represent everything that is bad about Gotham coming like a plague and taking everything away from Bruce that is dear to him. Instead the movie treats us to just a "bad accident" where neither party is painted in a particularly bad light.

I also felt the movie made too much of a character out of Bruce Wayne's tormentor. We shouldn't really know that much about him aside from his crime and that he wants money and jewels. Instead we are treated to a view of this guys personal life, and the movie humanizes him to much taking away any metaphorical qualities he could have had.
 
This is where I have a problem with Batman Begins. Joe Chill is supposed to represent an any-man and everyman in crime. There is nothing remotely special or distinct about him except in Bruce's mind; namely that he killed Bruce's parents. The point of him not being caught though is to further Bruce's development. Bruce will most likely never find his parents killer, certainly not after all these years, when it's most likely he is dead or already imprisoned (or both). Therefore it is not a single man who kills the Wayne's but a corrupt society.

See, I look at this a completely different way. For me, the way Begins did it conveyed that exact message, that the problem is something bigger than Chill himself.

Because he was caught, jailed, and killed, it put less importance on the man himself in relation to Bruce's mission. Bruce doesn't even start until after Chill is dead. That says, to me, that this is not a mission of vengeance, but a mission of peace and restoration to prevent any children from experiencing the same tragedy. Some people have always had this theory in mind that every night, in his mind, Batman is fighting "Joe Chill" - looking for a sort of symbolic vengeance. In Begins, it's pretty clear to me that Bruce has "moved on", for lack of a better term, from the single man. That makes his mission all the less selfish.

Just because the killer is given a name and a voice and a general "motive", he's still very much the everyman. That's the point; that anyone could've been holding that gun, because of the state Gotham was in.

I will, however, concede the point of Joe Chill's capture and it's statement on the effectiveness of the GPD. It does seem to contradict, or at least not support, the idea that there's a desperate need for Batman. However, one could assume that things have just gotten so much worse since then. Maybe, and I know this is reaching, there's even a statement in there about class. Maybe had it not been the Waynes that were murdered, and it were just some poor schmoe, the law wouldn't have been so quick and effective.
 
See, I look at this a completely different way. For me, the way Begins did it conveyed that exact message, that the problem is something bigger than Chill himself.

Because he was caught, jailed, and killed, it put less importance on the man himself in relation to Bruce's mission. Bruce doesn't even start until after Chill is dead. That says, to me, that this is not a mission of vengeance, but a mission of peace and restoration to prevent any children from experiencing the same tragedy. Some people have always had this theory in mind that every night, in his mind, Batman is fighting "Joe Chill" - looking for a sort of symbolic vengeance. In Begins, it's pretty clear to me that Bruce has "moved on", for lack of a better term, from the single man. That makes his mission all the less selfish.
This is the problem though, in Batman Begins, he isn't fighting "Joe Chill" at all. In fact he only seems to fight those that create Joe Chills; Falcone, Scarecrow and Ra's Al Ghul in this particular instance.

This Joe Chill is painted quite sympathetic, as if we aren't supposed to hate him, but rather the people who created him. Aside from Falcone's men, Bruce never seems to take an active role against "lesser" criminals in Begins. No taking out crooks looking to rip off some old lady like in "Batman: Year One". Or perhaps my most perfect example "Appointment in Crime Alley". We see Batman primarily going after Roland Dagget, who is a cause of flith and corruption in the East End slum, but also stopping a disgruntled resident who Dagget pushed to the edge. In both cases, against both adversaries Batman seems to draw no distinction between the underclass common criminal and the upper class corrupt businessman. But in Begins he does.

Thematically that distinction he makes is a sensible one, because considering his past with Rachel Dawes and Joe Chill he views crime as a top down war: cut off the head and the body withers. Unfortunately this is not Batman, and this actually stiffles his character. In Begins we see Batman go after men we know are bad, we know are corrupt right from the beginning. In most canonical Batman stories we see the opposite; Batman hunts down the petty criminals of Gotham and uses his detective brillance to work his way up the latter unfolding the many connections. In "Year One"'s case it turns out to be a connection between the Falcone's and the police themselves.

Begins ends up with a Batman for whom the villains are much more specific. Falcone needs to go, because he creates "new Joe Chills everyday", Ra's Al Ghul needs to go because he wants to microwave Gotham, and Judge ***an needs out because he and the Arkham doctors are letting criminals get free walks. This is not Batman though, Batman fights everyone, that's why Joe Chill can't get caught.

Joe Chill is an ambiguous criminal, he could be a mob boss, a petty theif, a serial killer, a disgruntled employee or even a desperate poor person....it doesn't matter though, Batman will hunt them all because they all cause destruction and chaos in his city. This Joe Chill was specific, and had a specific and outlined motive for his crime. It takes away from the senselessness, and ultimately took away from the character of Batman, who is supposed to be dedicated to fighting crime since day one.
 
While I do agree with some of what you said, ShadowBoxing, I think you're close on the "sympathetic" part, but off by just a hair. I think Goyer was going for a Joe Chill that tries for sympathy, but is denied it by both Bruce and the audience.

I mean that in the way of when he's giving his "desperate" speech, the audience should be saying, "Well yeah he may have had it rough, but that's no reason to shoot a man."

We feel this way because Thomas was completely cooperative with Chill. He was going to let him just take his wallet. Chill wasn't going to shoot the Waynes. He just moved too quickly and Thomas thought Chill was going to shoot Martha. So he jumps in front of the gun which startles Chill, who then pulls the trigger.

Bruce views this simply as a murder, and who can blame him? He was 8. So when they catch Chill, justice appears to have been served. You'll notice Bruce's problem later on is that Chill is getting early parole. If he had served his full sentence, who's to say Batman would still have been necessary for Bruce?

After further exploring this subject of the movie, I'm starting to think that Rachel was just as responsible for Batman as Ducard and Falcone. Without her, Bruce never would have seen the Narrows. Never been able to look beyond his own pain. Nor would he have had the thirst for revenge slapped out of him.

It's lines like "Falcone is creating new Joe Chills everyday" and Falcone's whole speech about "Two off-duty cops, a union official, and a judge. Now I wouldn't have a second's hesitation of blowing your head off right in front of all of them. That's power you can't buy." and further, when Falcone states that Bruce has forgotten about his butler, or his pretty little friend down at the DA's office. This shows that Falcone can take out anyone, whether it's a city official, or a "nobody" butler.

It is at this moment that Bruce decides something must be done. So he dissappears. For 7 years he trains, going so far as to even take on the lifestyle of the thing he's trying to stop. But he never becomes one of them. Perhaps he is even the one that called the cops, and got himself caught?

He learns all he can from the LoS, but once again, never becomes one of them.

So even though they caught Joe Chill, gave him a name, tried to sympathize him, whatever, Bruce never loses sight of the fact that Chill's circumstances were beyond his control, but that doesn't justify his actions. Bruce is out there to stop other would-be Joe Chills, but also to stop them from being made in the first place.

edit: sorry for the wordy post. hopefully you were able to make sense of all that.
 
This is the problem though, in Batman Begins, he isn't fighting "Joe Chill" at all. In fact he only seems to fight those that create Joe Chills; Falcone, Scarecrow and Ra's Al Ghul in this particular instance.

This Joe Chill is painted quite sympathetic, as if we aren't supposed to hate him, but rather the people who created him. Aside from Falcone's men, Bruce never seems to take an active role against "lesser" criminals in Begins. No taking out crooks looking to rip off some old lady like in "Batman: Year One". Or perhaps my most perfect example "Appointment in Crime Alley". We see Batman primarily going after Roland Dagget, who is a cause of flith and corruption in the East End slum, but also stopping a disgruntled resident who Dagget pushed to the edge. In both cases, against both adversaries Batman seems to draw no distinction between the underclass common criminal and the upper class corrupt businessman. But in Begins he does.

Thematically that distinction he makes is a sensible one, because considering his past with Rachel Dawes and Joe Chill he views crime as a top down war: cut off the head and the body withers. Unfortunately this is not Batman, and this actually stiffles his character. In Begins we see Batman go after men we know are bad, we know are corrupt right from the beginning. In most canonical Batman stories we see the opposite; Batman hunts down the petty criminals of Gotham and uses his detective brillance to work his way up the latter unfolding the many connections. In "Year One"'s case it turns out to be a connection between the Falcone's and the police themselves.

Begins ends up with a Batman for whom the villains are much more specific. Falcone needs to go, because he creates "new Joe Chills everyday", Ra's Al Ghul needs to go because he wants to microwave Gotham, and Judge ***an needs out because he and the Arkham doctors are letting criminals get free walks. This is not Batman though, Batman fights everyone, that's why Joe Chill can't get caught.

I don't see how this is un-Batman-like. Batman's mission has always been to protect Gotham City and to prevent what happened to him from happening to anyone else. I think you're really splitting hairs to say that just becausehe's only shown going after the big guns that this Batman is somehow different. Begins is a tight film; it focuses on certain key plot points and the characters that service them. I didn't mind that the plot didn't stop for 3 minutes to show Batman stop a random mugging; these little anectode moments have become a staple of superhero movies -from Reeve's Superman saving the cat to Spider-Man saving babies out of burning buildings to Routh's Superman stopping the bank robbery- but they're not necessary. I get it, he's a superhero. He does good things. I know Batman, and most people know Batman; I can fill in the blanks myself. I don't need to see all these classic Batman beats in every movie - it's like people complaining that we may not see the batcave in TDK; I don't care, I've seen it in 6 movies already. But I digress...

He's ambitious; there's nothing wrong or un-Batman about that. In Year One, his first major appearance is crashing the dinner party and announcing that the days of Gotham's corrupt officials are ending. I don't see how using the trickle-down method on crime fighting is any less valid than the "work your way up the ladder" method, especially when Batman has been shown to use both.

I don't see anything wrong with the portrayal of Chill, and to your assumed extent, the rest of Gotham's street criminals. I didn't see it as sympathetic, I saw it as honest and real. Criminals are bred out of poverty and corruption; the majority of them are not just pure evil. And we'll be getting that pointless, motiveless, comic book evil in the form of the Joker, where it makes sense.

On a larger scale, this is simply the nature of superhero movies. These 2 hour films aren't afforded the leisure of one to five (depending on how many titles your hero has) stories a month. These movies have to be very specific in the threats that our hero faces - the usual formula is superhero vs one or two supervillains. I thought Begins actually succeeded at being less by-the-book with this than most other movies; I really got the feel that there was a bigger mission at stake than a specific villain or two.
 
Bravo, Pete. You've managed to explain how I feel better than I could twice in one night now. Chill is the everyman. Whether he has a face and a name or not. Batman knows that Gotham has bigger problems than random street muggings. I'm sure in all of his history there has been time and time again where Batman has been listening to a police scanner and heard about reports of small stuff. I believe that is also where detective issue comes in. Sorta. Batman is not going to stop and solve every little crime. He has to move on to the next guy on the ladder in order to stop the first guy.

This doesn't mean that if he's chilling on a rooftop, he'll ignore a crime. But he needs to concentrate on the big names.
 
Yes, Joe Chill was caught and killed, but he wasn't killed by Bruce, he thinks about it, still feels a hole in his heart, realizes what he was going to do was wrong and seeks justice.

Justice not just of the criminals, but of the wild west justice that also took place (Joe Chill being shot), which to me is much better, and much deeper motivation to become Batman than "my parents' killer was never found, I have to make sure it never happens again" which is real cliche and "easy."
 
Joe Chill being caught and later killed was one of the smartest moves I thought Batman Begins had made.

It also make Batman a much more noble hero.

For a long time Batman was simply doing what he was doing in hopes to find that guy. So, it seemed a hell of a lot more personal than him just wanting to make a change for a better tomorrow. I know both of those were the reasons in the books, but him having absolutely no chance at vengeance...and him trying to seek justice to fill that void....just seems all the more positive, and dramatic to me.

Plus, if he ever got his hands on Chill....he'd kill him. Guranteed. He'd have to. Chill's the only guy I think Batman would ever kill with no remorse. Even the Joker isn't on that list.
 
Joe Chill was a fairly boring and bland character, I doubt he would have lived long anyway.
 
And if he had, he would have served no purpose other than to probably get caught by Batman and put him in the "kill or don't kill" scenario.
 

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