Justice League Justice League Box Office Prediction - Part 6

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Avatar came out in 2009 and you are aware that 2017's JUSTICE LEAGUE features some of the most iconic characters not in comic book but also in pop culture right?

Please stop.

The entire cast dying in a fiery car crash the week before, 100% on RottenTomatoes, and Warner Brothers commissioning mountain-sized Justice League-branded blimps to hover over every major city wouldn't have gotten the movie to $3 billion.
 
Please stop.

The entire cast dying in a fiery car crash the week before, 100% on RottenTomatoes, and Warner Brothers commissioning mountain-sized Justice League-branded blimps to hover over every major city wouldn't have gotten the movie to $3 billion.

You sir win the internet for today.
 
The international box office for the Marvel Studios movies is largely a result of effective brand building and consistent quality. Or, at least, there would need to be some kind of extremely substantive counter-argument, because the raw numbers support the former idea. International box office for those movies:

Phase 1
IM 266, TIH 134, FA 176, Thor 181, IM2 312

Avengers 895

Phase 2, first part
IM3 805, TDW 438, WS 454, GotG 440

Age of Ultron 946

Phase 2, second part AM 339, CW 745, DS 445, GotG2 475, HC 545, Ragnarok 532 (this will end a bit higher)

We should keep in mind that the dollar got stronger soon after the first Guardians movie (between Guardians and Age of Ultron), so the numbers in the second part of phase 2 are somewhat deflated. In terms of actual business being done overseas, the trend is even more obvious than the numbers make it appear.

So that is the brilliance of the Marvel extended universe experiment. The individual properties benefit from the overall success of the venture, with a big spike for the event movies, particularly Avengers.

Ant Man is the lowest of the recent movies, but still higher than any phase 1 movie, in spite of a stronger dollar deflating the number. It's somewhat closer to movies like TDW, WS and GotG than the number makes it appear.

CW, DS, GOTG2, SMHC and TR are Phase 3 though.
Great points made on the consistent increases and upward trend in the individual franchises within the MCU as well as MS brand itself.
 
An unknown superhero with a silly name took in over a half a billion dollars; that's a pretty solid endorsement of the Marvel brand.

A "turd"? A Cinemascore of "A", 82% RT with high marks from audiences.

Other studios wish they had turds like that. :D

I wasn't indicating that Ant-Man was a turd, I was saying that the Marvel brand won't turn a movie that's bad into a good one. I like Ant-Man quite a lot, and it did well.

A basically unknown superhero took in hand a billion in 2009. Well made films earn money. If Ant-Man had been bad and had earned that much, I'd believe the Marvel brand had a hand in it.
 
The international box office for the Marvel Studios movies is largely a result of effective brand building and consistent quality. Or, at least, there would need to be some kind of extremely substantive counter-argument, because the raw numbers support the former idea. International box office for those movies:

Phase 1
IM 266, TIH 134, FA 176, Thor 181, IM2 312

Avengers 895

Phase 2, first part
IM3 805, TDW 438, WS 454, GotG 440

Age of Ultron 946

Phase 2, second part AM 339, CW 745, DS 445, GotG2 475, HC 545, Ragnarok 532 (this will end a bit higher)

We should keep in mind that the dollar got stronger soon after the first Guardians movie (between Guardians and Age of Ultron), so the numbers in the second part of phase 2 are somewhat deflated. In terms of actual business being done overseas, the trend is even more obvious than the numbers make it appear.

So that is the brilliance of the Marvel extended universe experiment. The individual properties benefit from the overall success of the venture, with a big spike for the event movies, particularly Avengers.

Ant Man is the lowest of the recent movies, but still higher than any phase 1 movie, in spite of a stronger dollar deflating the number. It's somewhat closer to movies like TDW, WS and GotG than the number makes it appear.

Yes, I know the Marvel brand has helped build the universe and excitement for upcoming movies. However, I do not believe the brand would save a poor movie.

I may have phrased my post poorly, for that I apologize. I do not think Ant-Man is a turd, I enjoy the movie and saw it twice in theaters. My point was that if Marvel released something that was below par, say on the level of BvS, SS, or JL, I think we would see similar smaller numbers. The brand definitely helps first weekends, but quality movies are what give them their legs and their good box office revenues.
 
My point was that if Marvel released something that was below par, say on the level of BvS, SS, or JL, I think we would see similar smaller numbers.

If Marvel started releasing movies that were perceived to be awful, that would certainly have an impact. However, the effect would probably be more immediate at the domestic box office than the international box office.

That tends to be the pattern for these franchises. It takes longer for franchises to catch on overseas, but it takes longer for them to fade away also.

The brand definitely helps first weekends, but quality movies are what give them their legs and their good box office revenues.

As a general rule, I think most would agree with the following, more or less:

Opening = hype + brand strength, Legs = quality and word of mouth

But there is also the cumulative effect of brand building over time, which seems to impact the domestic and overseas box office differently.

For example, in terms of tickets sold in the domestic market, the only Marvel Studios movies that have done more business than the first Iron Man (adjusted) are Avengers, Iron Man 3, Age of Ultron and Civil War. So basically the event movies that benefit directly either from Avengers, Iron Man, or both. Meanwhile, every movie Marvel studios releases does more business overseas than the first Iron Man.

Doctor Strange is a very well-received origin story, but it did only about 60% of Iron Man's business domestically. Overseas, the situation is roughly the opposite, with Iron Man having done only maybe 55-60% of Doctor Strange's international box office.

So quality is one factor, but not the only one.

Domestically, Iron Man was an event in a way that non-Avengers movies aren't anymore. Even if the movies are very, very good, like Homecoming and Ragnarok. Internationally, Marvel Studios has built its brand so that any release will do more business than its early movies. One very bad movie would not be enough to change that, though a series of bad movies would start to have an impact.
 
Opening = hype + brand strength, Legs = quality and word of mouth.

I agree with this but I would add in the Legs equation, "surprise factor". This is why generally good origin stories have better legs than first sequels, which in turn have better legs than 2nd sequels. The hype and the brand strength of the sequels overtake the good quality and word of mouth, because such a large percentage of the GA is already excited and going to see it OW.

For example I think Civil War had great quality and word of mouth, but it had poor legs relative to the rest of the MCU, because it had no surprise factor. Everyone knew it would be great, and so most went opening weekend.
 
If Marvel started releasing movies that were perceived to be awful, that would certainly have an impact. However, the effect would probably be more immediate at the domestic box office than the international box office.

That tends to be the pattern for these franchises. It takes longer for franchises to catch on overseas, but it takes longer for them to fade away also.



As a general rule, I think most would agree with the following, more or less:

Opening = hype + brand strength, Legs = quality and word of mouth

But there is also the cumulative effect of brand building over time, which seems to impact the domestic and overseas box office differently.

For example, in terms of tickets sold in the domestic market, the only Marvel Studios movies that have done more business than the first Iron Man (adjusted) are Avengers, Iron Man 3, Age of Ultron and Civil War. So basically the event movies that benefit directly either from Avengers, Iron Man, or both. Meanwhile, every movie Marvel studios releases does more business overseas than the first Iron Man.

Doctor Strange is a very well-received origin story, but it did only about 60% of Iron Man's business domestically. Overseas, the situation is roughly the opposite, with Iron Man having done only maybe 55-60% of Doctor Strange's international box office.

So quality is one factor, but not the only one.

Domestically, Iron Man was an event in a way that non-Avengers movies aren't anymore. Even if the movies are very, very good, like Homecoming and Ragnarok. Internationally, Marvel Studios has built its brand so that any release will do more business than its early movies. One very bad movie would not be enough to change that, though a series of bad movies would start to have an impact.

I agree for the most part, and I think we're pretty much on the same page. However I don't know that I agree that it would take a series of bad movies to have an impact. To date, the MCU has not released a bad movie, so we have no way of judging. Yet we can see from the DCEU that it only takes one movie (BvS) to wreck the next one. Transformers dropped dramatically over one or two movies as well.

The Marvel brand helps, but it's because they constantly brew quality. Drop that once or twice, and that brand means a lot less.
 
Transformers dropped dramatically over one or two movies as well.

Well, Transformers is a good example of the pattern I referred to above. Here are the domestic/international splits for those movies:

1) 319M/390M
2) 402M/434M
3) 352M/771M
4) 245M/858M
5) 130M/475M

While not critically praised, audiences liked the first one as blockbuster entertainment, leading to bigger numbers for the sequel, which was panned as an absolutely awful movie.

The dropoff was immediate for the 3rd installment domestically, but not so internationally, where the franchise continued to expand for installments 3 and 4.

Only the fifth installment came crashing to earth, though it's worth noting that the international number is still in the "respectable" range, mostly thanks to a big opening in China.

So it's not that audience reception and perceived quality don't matter everywhere, but we have to nuance that statement because franchises tend to hit a ceiling more quickly in the domestic market, and the box office is impacted more quickly by negative reception.
 
Well, Transformers is a good example of the pattern I referred to above. Here are the domestic/international splits for those movies:

1) 319M/390M
2) 402M/434M
3) 352M/771M
4) 245M/858M
5) 130M/475M

While not critically praised, audiences liked the first one as blockbuster entertainment, leading to bigger numbers for the sequel, which was panned as an absolutely awful movie.

The dropoff was immediate for the 3rd installment domestically, but not so internationally, where the franchise continued to expand for installments 3 and 4.

Only the fifth installment came crashing to earth, though it's worth noting that the international number is still in the "respectable" range, mostly thanks to a big opening in China.

So it's not that audience reception and perceived quality don't matter everywhere, but we have to nuance that statement because franchises tend to hit a ceiling more quickly in the domestic market, and the box office is impacted more quickly by negative reception.

The only saving factor for transformers was China though. Post 3 there was a big drop off internationally, with the exception of China ($620 million for 3 to $520 million for 4). If I'm not mistaken, Transformers 4 was filmed partly in China, which helped it double its take the from number 3. The quality dropped, and the movies dropped almost across the board.
 
The hype and the brand strength of the sequels overtake the good quality and word of mouth, because such a large percentage of the GA is already excited and going to see it OW.

Yeah. I think that sort of thing can be filed under "hype and brand awareness."

Basically, if the first installment is very well-received, and has good legs, one can expect the sequel to have a bigger opening. But, unless it really surpasses expectations, it probably won't have the same legs.

GotG versus GotG2.

For example I think Civil War had great quality and word of mouth, but it had poor legs relative to the rest of the MCU, because it had no surprise factor. Everyone knew it would be great, and so most went opening weekend.

I don't know that there is any reason to consider Civil War to be an exception to the general rule. It had the big opening due to hype, but below average legs because the audience wasn't too enthusiastic about it.

That doesn't mean it was a bad movie, but it had a different tone than most Marvel movies, and was a bit of a downer, ending with a very bitter dispute between two beloved characters.

Legs aren't a measure of quality in some sort of objective way, but a combination of factors, including how enthusiastic people are about re-watching the movie, bringing friends, recommending it to others, etc. If we bash BvS on the basis that it had horrible legs, why should we give Civil War a pass when it is somewhat better, but still below average?

In general, I think it's reasonable to be suspicious of fans wanting to make exceptions for movies they like or don't like. Just because we can be very biased as fans.

So I think the fair assessment is that the word of mouth for Civil War wasn't very good, as compared to most of these movies.
 
JL is definitely not Snyder's film. Go to the deleted scenes thread. It's much more WB/Whedon film.

I think those posts on twitter that the movie feels like Snyder movie are crazy.

Let's play roles reverse. Same movie, directed by Whedon originally and Snyder comes in late. He has the identical impact Whedon had on JL, who's movie would you call it?

I guarantee nobody would be calling it Snyder's film, because it would have been Whedon's... Just like JL is Snyder's. And that's how it will always be known. A fitting end to his "trilogy" if you want to call it that.
 
Let's play roles reverse. Same movie, directed by Whedon originally and Snyder comes in late. He has the identical impact Whedon had on JL, who's movie would you call it?

I guarantee nobody would be calling it Snyder's film, because it would have been Whedon's... Just like JL is Snyder's. And that's how it will always be known. A fitting end to his "trilogy" if you want to call it that.

I do love how all the people screaming “this is still a Zack Snyder movie!” ad infinitum in the months leading up to JL’s release have now all decided that “oh no, no, no... it’s not Zack’s movie at all!”

It’s a Zack Snyder movie with changes made by WB through Joss Whedon. The fault for it lies with all of them.
 
I don't know that there is any reason to consider Civil War to be an exception to the general rule. It had the big opening due to hype, but below average legs because the audience wasn't too enthusiastic about it.

That doesn't mean it was a bad movie, but it had a different tone than most Marvel movies, and was a bit of a downer, ending with a very bitter dispute between two beloved characters.

Legs aren't a measure of quality in some sort of objective way, but a combination of factors, including how enthusiastic people are about re-watching the movie, bringing friends, recommending it to others, etc. If we bash BvS on the basis that it had horrible legs, why should we give Civil War a pass when it is somewhat better, but still below average?

In general, I think it's reasonable to be suspicious of fans wanting to make exceptions for movies they like or don't like. Just because we can be very biased as fans.

So I think the fair assessment is that the word of mouth for Civil War wasn't very good, as compared to most of these movies.

I was not trying to make Civil War any sort of exception to your rule, rather I am saying that your "Legs" rule is incomplete. It's not just quality and word of mouth, it's also how much of a surprise the quality is to the audience.

CW had a 91% certified fresh RT score, and a 75 Metascore, both highest numbers for the trilogy. The quality was there, according to reviewers.

CW has a 7.9 IMDB score, an "A" metascore, and an 89% audience score. These are all indications that the audience was enthusiastic, and that WOM was there.

CW had the best numbers almost all around for the trilogy, and numbers way ahead of TFA, yet the worst BO multiplier of the entire MCU. That simply means that the hype eliminated the surprise factor from the legs equation. There weren't enough people left after the huge first weekend to give it good legs.

Very similarly, Thor:Ragnarok, widely acclaimed and much more popular with audiences than the previous Thor films, will end up with worse legs than the original Thor film. Again, missing the surprise factor.

CBM movies are all frontloaded, sequels are more frontloaded, and 2nd sequels even more frontloaded. The surprise factor isn't there to allow even great sequels to match the legs of inferior origin movies.
 
That's probably true, at least to an extent. Civil War isn't too different from Iron Man 3, or even Age of Ultron.

Having said that, audience scores and that sort of thing can give an indication of what word of mouth might be, but the best indication is sustained interest at the box office.
I guess one might infer that movies like Iron Man 3, Age of Ultron and Civil War delivered good quality and met expectations, which by that time were very high, but didn't exceed them.

The trick for Infinity War will be trying to exceed expectations once again.

Anyway, I think we are agreeing on the main points. Some of this is really just details and small nuances.
 
I do love how all the people screaming “this is still a Zack Snyder movie!” ad infinitum in the months leading up to JL’s release have now all decided that “oh no, no, no... it’s not Zack’s movie at all!”

It’s a Zack Snyder movie with changes made by WB through Joss Whedon. The fault for it lies with all of them.

Yes. While we don't know the exact splits and proportions we know all involved are guilty.
 
Cmon people lets make JL #1 this week!!!!

I love Last Jedi BUT wow most fans didn't like it!!! Audience score is in the 50s.

If people think BVS and JL are divisive...The Last Jedi is also as much.

It's a great movie but some plot choices really put off most fans.

So it's a good weekend to rewatch JL baby!!! At least second place!! Never saw Coco but cmon it's not that good!! Is it???

After watching Last Jedi which I did like....I don't feel I have to watch it again....actually I want to rewatch JL more.
 
Cmon people lets make JL #1 this week!!!!

I love Last Jedi BUT wow most fans didn't like it!!! Audience score is in the 50s.

If people think BVS and JL are divisive...The Last Jedi is also as much.

It's a great movie but some plot choices really put off most fans.

So it's a good weekend to rewatch JL baby!!! At least second place!! Never saw Coco but cmon it's not that good!! Is it???

After watching Last Jedi which I did like....I don't feel I have to watch it again....actually I want to rewatch JL more.

...
 
Cmon people lets make JL #1 this week!!!!

I love Last Jedi BUT wow most fans didn't like it!!! Audience score is in the 50s.

If people think BVS and JL are divisive...The Last Jedi is also as much.

It's a great movie but some plot choices really put off most fans.

So it's a good weekend to rewatch JL baby!!! At least second place!! Never saw Coco but cmon it's not that good!! Is it???

After watching Last Jedi which I did like....I don't feel I have to watch it again....actually I want to rewatch JL more.

:lmao:
 
Cmon people lets make JL #1 this week!!!!

I love Last Jedi BUT wow most fans didn't like it!!! Audience score is in the 50s.

If people think BVS and JL are divisive...The Last Jedi is also as much.

It's a great movie but some plot choices really put off most fans.

So it's a good weekend to rewatch JL baby!!! At least second place!! Never saw Coco but cmon it's not that good!! Is it???

After watching Last Jedi which I did like....I don't feel I have to watch it again....actually I want to rewatch JL more.
Sure!!!! And let us cure cancer while we are at it!!!!!
 
Cmon people lets make JL #1 this week!!!!

I love Last Jedi BUT wow most fans didn't like it!!! Audience score is in the 50s.

If people think BVS and JL are divisive...The Last Jedi is also as much.

It's a great movie but some plot choices really put off most fans.

So it's a good weekend to rewatch JL baby!!! At least second place!! Never saw Coco but cmon it's not that good!! Is it???

After watching Last Jedi which I did like....I don't feel I have to watch it again....actually I want to rewatch JL more.

Coco is amazing. Not only is it beautiful, but the story is great and covers a culture we don't get enough of in cinema. It's substantially better than JL,and it deserves a good box office run.
 
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Justice League who have to increase by a crazy insane percentage for its weekend take to beat just the Friday take of SW:TLJ, but to beat the whole weekend? Heh.
 
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