Justice League Justice league movie approach-Lead ins vs no leadins

[Zionite1]

Seeing as this topic tends to derails most JL threads Ive decided to create a the thread where you can freely debate this topic.So post your opinions and be civil.Ill go first

I beleive the Justice league movie can succeed either way but I do acknowledge it being harder with no leadins for the following reasons

No 1.With the exception of Batman and Supes non of them have Public draw power.People always argue that Flash,WW,Gl are more iconic than the avengers characters.Yet I dare you to ask a kid what what Flashs secret identiy is. Youll get no answer.Ask them what Ironmans secret identity is and theyll give it to you without blinking.The movies have moved heroes like Iron man from "simply recongnizble" to "Public drawing heroes".Flash,WW and to a smaller extent GL are still "simply recongnizable"

Basically it goes down like this
The appeal of seeing JL movie without solos-Bats and supes
The appeal of seeing JL movie with solos-Bats,supes,flash,GL,WW.

look at both and you can see why the solo movie approach is superior-It has more appeal.A JL movie without solos will ineveitably be less of an event than one with solos

No 2.The other problem the spinoff approach has is establsihing the various mythologies of each hero in the same universe with one go.

For example Establishing Wonder woman mythos(fantasy) and Green lantern mythos(sci fi) in the same universe and having them interact normally.
It also has to constantly explain aspects on the mythos as they are introduced in the Jl movie explanations that take up screentime and detract from main plot.Explanations that wld have been covered in solo movies.

No 3.Jl movie following the spinoff approach has to Get all characterisations right in one go and seeing as they cant use solo leadins as template like the avengers did,this will be more difficult.

Getting the characterisations right is not just for the sake of the ovie but for the spinofs.Fact is.The Jl director is essentially in one go setting up the groundwork for the solo movie spinoffs and theres a good possibility of making a mistake since he is focusing on so many characters.Its not like Marvels appproach where they systematically built the groundwork for each solo movie in its own movie thus minimizing errors.Whoever is writing the script for a JL movie needs to essntially have a grand plan for the entire solo movie spinoffs

No 4.They have the risk of being seen as a superhero team(Fantastic Four,Xmen) instead of being seen as a superhero team up(Avengers) without Solos.


Now dont get me wrong,I think a JL movie can very much succeed without solos after all it has Bats and Supes. But there is no doubt in my mind it will have succeeded a whole lot more with solo movies leading up to it,and a lot easier.

Howver There are 2 main advantages to the no lead-ins approach though

1st advantage is that we get a Jl movie earlier than we would with Solos(its this main plus that blinds people to all other disadvatnages of this approach)

2nd advantage is that Spinoff movies are less likely to fail financially.This advantage benefits the studios not the fans though.

It simply means that WB will be in less of a financial risk when releasing the solo movies.
I personally dont care for this though -kinda seems like that they dont beleive in their characters hence why they feel the need to have them sponge off Batman and Superman s popularity to simply have a chance at the big screen.But I cant deny its a good business decision

 

[DChero]

You make a really good point. At the end of the day, these movies are made to make money. Can they make a quality superhero movie and get the return on investment back for WW and Flash? I think so, because they don't have to be $150 million movies.

Green Lantern is tough because to do it justice, effects are a bigger factor. My suggestion would be either introduce a new GL in the Justice League or continue with Ryan Reynolds. I don't like the idea of a Hal Jordan reboot so soon. The movie may not have been considered much of a success, but they got through it. I think it's also fair to question how interested the general audience is in the character(s) stories. Another round seems risky. I could understand the need to reboot if it directly conflicts with MoS.

The Superman lead-in is the key to me. They could easily introduce/cameo a new character that may not be as well known, foregoing a large financial investment. Wonder Woman obviously won't work here because of her status, but a new Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter could really use this strategy.

Wonder Woman, to me, would really need a strong launch. She would either need her own movie before Justice League or a strong origin story built into Justice League. Not enough people know where she comes from or why she's there. She's simply thought of as the female Superman.

Batman, to me, should be older and toward the end of his prime. We don't need another origin for this to work, we just need to show that he has some kind of competitive edge, which I think should be his experience.

In short:
- Build around MoS
- I suggest a Wonder Woman movie lead-in and cameo lead-ins for GL and MM
- Launch the Batman and Flash series' off of Justice League

 

[mclay18]

I think it's a double-edged sword. There are pros and cons to both approaches, but I think WB is going the more cost-effective route if JL goes forward. They don't want to invest $150-200M several times for lead-in solo characters like WW and Flash, it's much more cost-effective to get the main five (Batman, Superman, GL, WW, Flash) in a big $250M extravaganza. If the movie is well-received and people love the actors playing the new characters, getting solo spinoff films is much easier.

Making a JL film with little to no buildup is risky, but if it's written and directed well -- audiences won't mind so much. Doing several solo films building up to a JL film creates awareness, but WB will kill any further development if the solo films don't fare well with audiences and critics alike.

 

[Random490]

I prefer they'd do a Flash and WW movie first get those characters and their origins and characters in the public minds. Also I would like it if they did a world's finest before JL, just because I feel like Batman and Superman are the most interesting characters in the JL line up to play off each other and I think it would be best to explore more of that in a separate film leaving a JL movie more open. Which could be the only lead you would need.

 

[Edguy]

Very valid points. At this point, it seems pretty set in stone that JL is their first priority, after MoS, which is kind of sad.. I'm thinking a Flash movie could be a hit on line with Iron Man, if they make it funny, and come up with some stunning effects and usage for his speed. Imagine some kind of 1. person perspective scene where everything but him is in slow motion, it could look amazing!

had they only gotten their **** together a little earlier.

 

[hotrain33]

It's hard to disagree with what marvel did accomplished with a solo movie build up to avengers. I too think that it something they should consider. But they have already made up their minds to go a different route. Man of Steel could be the only lead in for a justice league film. Flash and wonder woman are the only members to not have been on the big screen just yet. Wally is the funny one but its obvious they rather have berry allen as the scarlet speedster.

 

[Micromind]

Man of Steel could be the only lead in for a justice league film.

If they include Ryan Reynolds as Green Lantern in the Justice League movie, then last years GL movie could also be considered as a "lead in" to JL, although it would be vaguely tied up with it, depending on the fact that whether they acknowledge the events that happened in that movie.

 

[Random490]

The more I think about it, I don't think doing more lead ins would make the JL movie better or worse. While it's good to do the solo films first more to introduce the character to general audiences so you don't have to explain each character. But just the right dialog in the right place can speak volumes.

One positive on doing a JL movie is you can test which characters can get popularity for a solo movie. So it can be a good way to introduce all those characters at once and go from there. Also, if they did do a Flash and Wonder Woman movie doesn't mean they'll be any good. DC is very hit and miss with their movies. Superman Returns was a great Superman movie that no one wanted, Green Lantern had a ton of flaws, Jonah Hex I didn't even bother with. And again you have amazing films like the dark knight trilogy, Watchmen was great despite a few missteps, and man of steel is very promising. The problem is the WB is still looking at their comic properties like most studios did and still do. Marvel changed that and DC should really be inspired.

DC should take a cue from what Marvel did so well and I'm not the continuity. While that's great for us fans who love easter eggs, hints, and acknowledgement of the grander lore, it's not what made the Marvel films so great. What they did was find amazing and talented directors, writers, actors, effect, artists, etc. who not only loved the material but know how to show why they love it to a general audience. They were able to take character a lot of people didn't know and turned that audience into fans. Captain America is the best example of a difficult to adapt character that could have been a major flop and made tons of fans and tons of money. Green Lantern is a perfect example of the opposite, where it felt like everyone was just showing up for a check. Now while they may have been passionate behind the scenes they failed to show that in the final product.

So I don't think leads ins are that important it would be nice. I still stand by the idea of them doing a World's Finest first to test the waters see what does and doesn't work before going all in on a JL movie. What more important is WB reevaluates how they make these movies.

 

[Zionite1]

If they include Ryan Reynolds as Green Lantern in the Justice League movie, then last years GL movie could also be considered as a "lead in" to JL, although it would be vaguely tied up with it, depending on the fact that whether they acknowledge the events that happened in that movie.

The Gl movie fails as a lead in beacuse it didnt connect with the audience and failed to build a movie fanbase. Thats the piont of a leadin to build a fanbase that would be excited to see this heroes in the interact with each other.GLmovie cannot be a leadin in any sense of the world.So adding Reynolds does nothing for the movie-in fact he cld potentially detract from it.

I prefer they cast some one new and someone that can be taken seriously.

One positive on doing a JL movie is you can test which characters can get popularity for a solo movie. So it can be a good way to introduce all those characters at once and go from there.

All of them can be popular no need for testing.What they need is a welll executed movie and theyll be big succcesses.I really hope this isnt Wbs plan because it shows a lack of faith in their properties.
Example If the Jl movie is a success but fails to characterise Woderwoman in a good light what then.Does it mean WB will decide not to spinoff WW beacuse they are too scared?That right there is the problem-scaredy cats.

 

[Random490]

All of them can be popular no need for testing.What they need is a welll executed movie and theyll be big succcesses.I really hope this isnt Wbs plan because it shows a lack of faith in their properties.
Example If the Jl movie is a success but fails to characterise Woderwoman in a good light what then.Does it mean WB will decide not to spinoff WW beacuse they are too scared?That right there is the problem-scaredy cats.

No it just means if they find one character shine then they will get moving on making a solo film for them. They've had scripts for Flash and Wonder Woman for years and years even have had directors attached now and then, they just don't have the confidence in it to move forward and finance a film as oppose to just capitalizing on more popular characters like Batman and Superman. GL is lucky he got through... or maybe not lucky depending on your opinions of it

 

[Zionite1]

No it just means if they find one character shine then they will get moving on making a solo film for them. They've had scripts for Flash and Wonder Woman for years and years even have had directors attached now and then, they just don't have the confidence in it to move forward and finance a film as oppose to just capitalizing on more popular characters like Batman and Superman. GL is lucky he got through... or maybe not lucky depending on your opinions of it

The bolded is my piont. They dont have confidence in their characters.
Waiting to see who shines in a Jl movie before having faith to greenlight a movie is a bad move.They all shld be given movies irrespective of popularity.Fact is theres a high likelihood that 1 or 2 characters on the team wont get adequate chance in the spotlight-kinda like Hawkeye In Avengers.That doesnt mean they dont deserve a movie.

 

[COMPO]

I think if they do the Green Lantern movie again they should keep it in space mostly and have it be a cop movie in space. With Flash I'd have it in the style of the Raimi Spider-man movies its not dark but its fun and feels family friendly but still has room for darker themes. With Aquaman and Wonder Woman I'd give them the feel of like immortals or clash of the titans but with a modern spin.

However, I would have the World's Finest movie after the Justice League film. Hvae the lead up introduce the new Superman and the DC heroes and have the JLA movie introduce the Justice League and the new Batman.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

One other thing to consider, with the MCU each director had the freedom of providing their own take on each character and after they all succeeded all Marvel had to do was find ONE person who'd be okay with using "someone else's characters" so to speak and melding them with his own vision.

If they go the team-up then spin-off route, DC/WB's going to have to find a bunch of directors who are okay with their own vision taking somewhat of a backseat to fit with the vision that the JL director has already established for the characters. It also means the directors of the spin-off movies won't be involved in the process of casting the title characters because that would already have been done.

Not saying it's impossible to accomplish. Gavin Hood and Brett Ratner were okay with directing Wolverine and X3 with previously cast and established characters, then again those didn't exactly tun out too good. You can also count James Mangold, Shane Black, Alan Taylor and the Russo bros, hopefully those films turn out well.

 

[Zionite1]

One other thing to consider, with the MCU each director had the freedom of providing their own take on each character and after they all succeeded all Marvel had to do was find ONE person who'd be okay with using "someone else's characters" so to speak and melding them with his own vision.

If they go the team-up then spin-off route, DC/WB's going to have to find a bunch of directors who are okay with their own vision taking somewhat of a backseat to fit with the vision that the JL director has already established for the characters. It also means the directors of the spin-off movies won't be involved in the process of casting the title characters because that would already have been done.

Very true.
Theres also the part that Jl director might establish a vision for the chracters that while is great for the movie,it cld be problematic for the solos.The Jl director is essentially in one go setting up the groundwork for the solo movie spinoffs and theres a good possibility of making a mistake since he is focusing on so many characters.Its not like Marvels appproach where they systematically built the groundwork for each solo movie in its own movie thus minimizing errors.Whoever is writing the script for a JL movie needs to essntially have a grand plan for the entire solo movie spinoffs

 

[Zionite1]

Edited main post

 

[thorstone]

I don't think it's that difficult to bring Superman, Wonder Woman, Manhunter, Flash, and Aquaman into one film without origin films (other than Man of Steel). Wonder Woman is a woman named Diana Prince who has tactile telekinetic powers that give the perception of super strength; Manhunter is from another planet and his arrival can be shown in the prologue; Aquaman is a man with telekinetic power over water; and The Flash is a man who gained his power of super speed (or time manipulation) from an accident caused by lightning during some fancy experiment (fusion perhaps).

The Flash is the only character who gains his power from an event.

 

[TheWatcher]

I don't think it's that difficult to bring Superman, Wonder Woman, Manhunter, Flash, and Aquaman into one film without origin films (other than Man of Steel). Wonder Woman is a woman named Diana Prince who has tactile telekinetic powers that give the perception of super strength; Manhunter is from another planet and his arrival can be shown in the prologue; Aquaman is a man with telekinetic power over water; and The Flash is a man who gained his power of super speed (or time manipulation) from an accident caused by lightning during some fancy experiment (fusion perhaps).

The Flash is the only character who gains his power from an event.

No. Just no.

You cannot change the nature of the characters for the sake of keeping time.

 

[Zionite1]

I don't think it's that difficult to bring Superman, Wonder Woman, Manhunter, Flash, and Aquaman into one film without origin films (other than Man of Steel). Wonder Woman is a woman named Diana Prince who has tactile telekinetic powers that give the perception of super strength; Manhunter is from another planet and his arrival can be shown in the prologue; Aquaman is a man with telekinetic power over water; and The Flash is a man who gained his power of super speed (or time manipulation) from an accident caused by lightning during some fancy experiment (fusion perhaps).

The Flash is the only character who gains his power from an event.

The problem isnt the origins.Those arent necessary.The ral problesm were listed in my first post

 

[BH/HHH]

Just because Marvel did lead ins people think that's the only way to do it. Supernan and Batman been on screen together is what's going to sell this movie.

 

[Zionite1]

Just because Marvel did lead ins people think that's the only way to do it. Supernan and Batman been on screen together is what's going to sell this movie.

No one is saying its the only way-just that it has more negatives.Those negatives were listed in my first post.I do need to piont out though that nearly all the negatives of the no-leadup approach can be eliminated if Extraodinary storywriting skills are applied to the movie.Im talking LOTR type writing skills.

And the presence of Superman and Batman wont save this movie lone.Weve seen Batman Movies fail.So has Superman movies.Relying on the name isnt enough

 

[BH/HHH]

No one is saying its the only way-just that it has more negatives.Those negatives were listed in my first post.I do need to piont out though that nearly all the negatives of the no-leadup approach can be eliminated if Extraodinary storywriting skills are applied to the movie.Im talking LOTR type writing skills.

And the presence of Superman and Batman wont save this movie lone.Weve seen Batman Movies fail.So has Superman movies.Relying on the name isnt enough

I don't think they necessarily are negatives you can introduce the characters in a a film then go from there.

Trust me those two on the screen will get people watching that's how you sell this movie.

 

[Zionite1]

I don't think they necessarily are negatives you can introduce the characters in a a film then go from there.

Trust me those two on the screen will get people watching that's how you sell this movie.

Here are the negatives of the no leadup summarised.If you read my first post I detailed them.Youd also note that I said the Origins are not the problem.In fact they can be handled easily.

NEGATIVES OF NO LEADUP-NO 1:
The appeal of seeing JL movie without solos-Bats and supes
The appeal of seeing JL movie with solos-Bats,supes,flash,GL,WW.
Jl has less of an apppeal without solos.Doesnt mean it will fail just mean it wont succced as much as it wld with solos.


NEGATIVES OF NO LEADUP-NO 2:
The other problem the spinoff approach has is establsihing the various mythologies of each hero in the same universe with one go.
For example Establishing Wonder woman mythos(fantasy) and Green lantern mythos(sci fi) in the same universe and having them interact normally.

NEGATIVES OF NO LEADUP-NO 3:
Jl movie following the spinoff approach has to Get all characterisations right in one go and seeing as they cant use solo leadins as template like the avengers did,this will be more difficult. It also has to establish the foundation for each of the 4 spinoff franchises correctly otherwise they cant be made

NEGATIVES OF NO LEADUP-NO 4:
They have the risk of being seen as a superhero team(Fantastic Four,Xmen) instead of being seen as a superhero team up(Avengers) without Solos.

 

[BH/HHH]

That's just concentrating on the negatives though, I have faith in this film.

 

[metaphysician]

That's just concentrating on the negatives though, I have faith in this film.

The only positive to their current plan is "getting a JLA movie out several years sooner than otherwise." That's a pretty threadbare positive.

 

[KangConquers]

The brilliant thing about Avengers is that even though Iron Man and Thor were clearly not top tier characters before their first films, after them, they had become A-listers. You don't have a half a billion dollar film, and still get called a B-lister.

Public awareness for Thor, Captain America, Iron Man and Hulk was much higher going into Avengers than it will be for Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, etc going into this film. That's indisputable. You can't possibly compare a Wonder Woman tv series from 40 years ago that might have had 5-10 Million viewers to films that sold 35-50 Million tickets worldwide and several million dvds/ blu-rays.

I understand that after Green Lantern bombed, Warner Bros is afraid of taking the risk, but without the risk, there will be less reward. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Justice League has no chance of beating Avengers in the box office. Absolute zero. Avengers was built up as an event, where Justice League is being built like an X-Men film with more famous characters. This film will break $1 B if it's well made based on having the Superman/ Batman dynamic, but in terms of $1.5-2 B, and being an Avengers/ Cameron killer, it's not happening.

From an artistic perspective, you have to cram a lot more into the films. Aside from developing character dynamics, you have potentially 4 characters in the Justice League who are from non-human races vs just one in Avengers, who already got his own film. Imagine trying to explain Amazonians, Atlanteans, Martians, and The 4th world, in addition to developing actual chemistry and plot, in a 3 hour movie. It's damn near impossible.

I imagine we won't see Aquaman or MMH in this film for that reason, but if they went the solo route, we could get the entire big 7 in this film, and the film would be about the development of the villain and the character relationships, vs fleshing out solo heroes who most people don't know very much about.