Keep Hope Alive: Marvel Netflix Series Edition

[Detective Conan]

Marvel Television characters who have appeared in the MCU so far.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Marvel Television characters who have appeared in the MCU so far.

A lot of people are upset that Wilson Fisk got neutered in Hawkeye.

 

[OB12]

Also still up in the air but it’s also likely that these Marvel/Netflix shows will be canon possibly.

The fact that Disney+ put out promo announcing these properties are coming to the service indicates that they will likely be canon. Any previous properties (X-men, FF) that were added as legacy Marvel content was done with little fanfare.

 

[Still Wynning]

For those of you wondering: yes the Netflix shows will be coming to Disney Plus in the States:

With the addition of parental controls, I wonder if this opens the door for them to make some of their future Disney+ content even more mature than they have thus far, like showing quite a bit of blood, dismemberments, arms and legs breaking, impalements, more coarse language, some sexual content, etc. Maybe not quite to the extent of the Netflix shows, but still way more than the current shows.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I can see new MCU material (ie new seasons of those shows) to prevent the MCU from being stagnant, because that's one of the main criticisms of the MCU in Phase 4, that everything is the same and it's starting to get stagnant. I think doing this prevents that.

 

[Prison Mike]

I don’t think they would do that for existing MCU shows. Would be too weird if Loki season 2 all of a sudden became TV-MA. Families that watched the first season would flip. I think they can change to a mature tone for brand new shows that haven’t debuted yet though.

 

[Still Wynning]

I don’t think they would do that for existing MCU shows. Would be too weird if Loki season 2 all of a sudden became TV-MA. Families that watched the first season would flip. I think they can change to a mature tone for brand new shows that haven’t debuted yet though.

That’s more of what I was going for. Any future shows being able to go into r-rated territory if the material calls for it and isn’t constrained by the current rating threshold for the current crop of Disney+ shows thus far (remains to be seen if Moon Knight pushes that boundary even further than before).

 

[Dr. Evil]

I don’t think they would do that for existing MCU shows. Would be too weird if Loki season 2 all of a sudden became TV-MA. Families that watched the first season would flip. I think they can change to a mature tone for brand new shows that haven’t debuted yet though.

I was talking more of new seasons for the shows they got from Netflix. Having new seasons prevents the MCU from stagnation.

 

[OB12]

I could see a Heroes for Hire show coming out of this to continue the stories of JJ, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist. Kinda wonder if that is the secret project that Destin Daniel Cretton is working on.

 

[TheVileOne]

The hope was dead. Now, it's alive again.

 

[TheVileOne]

I could see a Heroes for Hire show coming out of this to continue the stories of JJ, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist. Kinda wonder if that is the secret project that Destin Daniel Cretton is working on.

I can't imagine we will see Finn Jones back as Iron Fist. If they use anybody, it will probably be Jessica Henwick.

 

[TheVileOne]

With the addition of parental controls, I wonder if this opens the door for them to make some of their future Disney+ content even more mature than they have thus far, like showing quite a bit of blood, dismemberments, arms and legs breaking, impalements, more coarse language, some sexual content, etc. Maybe not quite to the extent of the Netflix shows, but still way more than the current shows.

It should, otherwise doing this is pointless. And you should keep all these shows on Hulu or something.

I don’t think they would do that for existing MCU shows. Would be too weird if Loki season 2 all of a sudden became TV-MA. Families that watched the first season would flip. I think they can change to a mature tone for brand new shows that haven’t debuted yet though.

I agree I think this is a good prediction.

Established stuff yeah. Loki S2? No. Deadpool 3? New Punisher or Daredevil? Yes, most likely.

 

[OB12]

I can't imagine we will see Finn Jones back as Iron Fist. If they use anybody, it will probably be Jessica Henwick.

I don't think Finn Jones is totally off the table, but Henwick is probably more likely for IF and, reportedly, she was wanted for something in Shang Chi.

 

[Holy Slapper]

A lot of people are upset that Wilson Fisk got neutered in Hawkeye.

Which is kinda weird since he was much stronger than in the Netflix show and the story followed the comic book.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I can't imagine we will see Finn Jones back as Iron Fist. If they use anybody, it will probably be Jessica Henwick.

If I were a betting man, I don't see Danny coming back. Finn Jones or otherwise. I see them using that new character they made Iron Fist in the comics should they do anything more with Iron Fist stuff in the future. They will prob just never reference Danny again

 

[SirStrangefolk]

If I were a betting man, I don't see Danny coming back. Finn Jones or otherwise. I see them using that new character they made Iron Fist in the comics should they do anything more with Iron Fist stuff in the future. They will prob just never reference Danny again

It would be a huge waste of Lin Lie's own lore, powerset and identity to just make him the next Iron Fist in the MCU rather than to give him his own origin story and make him the Sword Master who wields the Sword of Fu Xi.

Spoiler

 

[Spider-Fan]

It would be a huge waste of Lin Lie's own lore, powerset and identity to just make him the next Iron Fist in the MCU rather than to give him his own origin story and make him the Sword Master who wields the Sword of Fu Xi.

Spoiler

I am not familiar with this character, but I am sure there are ways to marry the 2 things in a satisfying manner. Even if you recast Danny, part of the issue wasn't the performance, it was the white savior aspect of the character that people have really come to see as controversial, so I see them just sidelining the character and avoiding it altogether.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

I am not familiar with this character, but I am sure there are ways to marry the 2 things in a satisfying manner. Even if you recast Danny, part of the issue wasn't the performance, it was the white savior aspect of the character that people have really come to see as controversial, so I see them just sidelining the character and avoiding it altogether.

If you want an Asian Iron Fist, you could continue Colleen Wing's story, or you could introduce a character who has never really had their own unique identity apart from being a new Iron Fist like Pei or Fongji Wu.

Spoiler

But making Lin Lie the MCU's definitive Iron Fist would be like if they had an issue with Chris Evans after CA: TFA and then decided to make Frank Castle their Captain America going forward. Or if they had an issue with the comics version of (Gi)Ant-Man when they wanted to introduce him in Avengers 1 and made Clint Barton into Goliath instead of ever making him Hawkeye. Sure, they've had those identities in the comics temporarily but doing that would be taking away an original character with big potential to just make them a replacement character.

 

[Spider-Fan]

If you want an Asian Iron Fist, you could continue Colleen Wing's story, or you could introduce a character who has never really had their own unique identity apart from being a new Iron Fist like Pei or Fongji Wu.

Spoiler

But making Lin Lie the MCU's definitive Iron Fist would be like if they had an issue with Chris Evans and then decided to make Frank Castle their Captain America. Or if they had an issue with the comics version of (Gi)Ant-Man and made Clint Barton into Goliath instead of ever making him Hawkeye. Sure, they've had those identities in the comics but doing that would be taking away an original character with big potential to just make them a replacement.

When Ant-Man came around, they went with Scott Lang. Not Hank Pym. Also used Hope and not Janet for Wasp. So they have done it, and the other issue with Iron Fist was the quality of the show. If they want to rehab the image of Iron Fist and his mythos, starting from scratch with a new Iron Fist to me would make the most sense. Could you use Colleen? Sure, but you are also handcuffed to using material less people were into. Bringing back the other Defenders adds a lot of value, but Iron Fist has always been the "Yeah, but" of this conversation. Plus, using a new version of the character allows them to alter the mythis however they want while not angering people by disregarding the shows cannon just by not focusing on them. I see this as the best option. The amount of attention they pay to the Netflix cannon remains to be seen still, also.

Again, I am unfamiliar with the character in question here or his history as this other identity. I can see you are a fan, so this prospect likely goes against what you would want to see. But from a branding perspective, I see this as being the most logical thing to do, and given the comics anymore are test runs for the MCU and such anymore, I think they did this to the Iron Fist property for a reason.

 

[Zarex]

If you want an Asian Iron Fist, you could continue Colleen Wing's story, or you could introduce a character who has never really had their own unique identity apart from being a new Iron Fist like Pei or Fongji Wu.

Spoiler

But making Lin Lie the MCU's definitive Iron Fist would be like if they had an issue with Chris Evans after CA: TFA and then decided to make Frank Castle their Captain America going forward. Or if they had an issue with the comics version of (Gi)Ant-Man when they wanted to introduce him in Avengers 1 and made Clint Barton into Goliath instead of ever making him Hawkeye. Sure, they've had those identities in the comics but doing that would be taking away an original character with big potential to just make them a replacement character.

it would be like skipping over Hank and Janet and having Scott Lang and Hope Van Dyne as the MCU's Ant Man and the Wasp. Or introducing Carol Danvers as the first Captain Marvel.

Netflix's Iron Fist has waaaay to much going against him to ever make his way into MCU proper. If Henwick's Wing doesn't make the jump I could see either a recasting or another Immortal Weapon taking over.

 

[Spider-Fan]

it would be like skipping over Hank and Janet and having Scott Lang and Hope Van Dyne as the MCU's Ant Man and the Wasp. Or introducing Carol Danvers as the first Captain Marvel.

Netflix's Iron Fist has waaaay to much going against him to ever make his way into MCU proper. If Henwick's Wing doesn't make the jump I could see either a recasting or another Immortal Weapon taking over.

Like I said, the deeper issue with Iron Fist is the white savior trope is very out of vogue now as opposed to when the character was made, so while we can certainly get a better acted Danny by recasting, I see Feige and co just deeming the controversy around it as just not being worth using him at all. If it was just the actor sucked, I think recasting would be fine and likely. Especially when the MCU is going after diversity in its properties very hard right now

 

[Zarex]

Like I said, the deeper issue with Iron Fist is the white savior trope is very out of vogue now as opposed to when the character was made, so while we can certainly get a better acted Danny by recasting, I see Feige and co just deeming the controversy around it as just not being worth using him at all. If it was just the actor sucked, I think recasting would be fine and likely. Especially when the MCU is going after diversity in its properties very hard right now

I was involved in some heated debates on the IF boards after Finn Jones was cast. I thought it was a really bad look and that Loeb should have tried to bring in a Asian guy or someone of mixed race (Lewis Tan!) to fill the role. Some posters thought that his relationship with Luke wouldn't work unless Danny could trace his ancestry back to the Mayflower, but I wasn't buying it. I'd like to see AN Iron Fist in the MCU, and the Netflix show sucking probably makes it easier for Feige in the long run.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I was involved in some heated debates on the IF boards after Finn Jones was cast. I thought it was a really bad look and that Loeb should have tried to bring in a Asian guy or someone of mixed race (Lewis Tan!) to fill the role. Some posters thought that his relationship with Luke wouldn't work unless Danny could trace his ancestry back to the Mayflower, but I wasn't buying it. I'd like to see AN Iron Fist in the MCU, and the Netflix show sucking probably makes it easier for Feige in the long run.

I think the show also helped Feige by not showing much of Kun Lun in the actual show. So whenever we get a better view of it, they will have a lot more freedom. Really, I don't think the show did much damage as far as story potential even if you count the other Defenders stuff as cannon and just focus on Iron Fist stuff elsewhere. The show largely can just be ignored and not referenced and little changes

 

[SirStrangefolk]

When Ant-Man came around, they went with Scott Lang. Not Hank Pym. Also used Hope and not Janet for Wasp. So they have done it

it would be like skipping over Hank and Janet and having Scott Lang and Hope Van Dyne as the MCU's Ant Man and the Wasp. Or introducing Carol Danvers as the first Captain Marvel.

I disagree. Because Scott was always a legacy Ant-Man. It wasn't like Scott used to be known as The Incredible Jet-Man who had years of his own comics with that identity and then in one storyline lost his special jetpack and temporarily took on the Ant-Man mantle for a bit before giving it back to Hank. Scott's whole story begins and ends with him as Ant-Man so there is no unique identity lost.

Same with Carol. She was introduced in the Captain Marvel comics and was always part of the "Marvel " family as Ms. Marvel with the powers she now has in the MCU. She was never a character who started as the star of her own book, with her own identity and origin story completely independent of Mar-Vell.

This is different with Lin Lie, who started as the main character in his own book. He has a completely unique identity totally unrelated to any other Marvel characters. Nowadays it's actually very rare for new Marvel characters who aren't legacy heroes to be introduced in their own books so it seems very wasteful to just throw away one of the few recent totally new characters we have like that.

starting from scratch with a new Iron Fist to me would make the most sense. Could you use Colleen? Sure, but you are also handcuffed to using material less people were into.

Plus, using a new version of the character allows them to alter the mythis however they want while not angering people by disregarding the shows cannon just by not focusing on them. I see this as the best option.

1. I don't think using Colleen would handcuff you to the Netflix lore. So far with Matt and Fisk they haven't really adressed that. They could just leave it vague how much it relates to the show and just focus on telling Colleen's story going forward leaving it up to the viewer if they consider it a continuation of the Netflix show. Like you said yourself "The amount of attention they pay to the Netflix cannon remains to be seen still.". Who knows, they might even just take some inspiration and casting from the Netflix shows but completely contradict it elsewhere. Like, I could still totally see them do Bullseye or Typhoid Mary completely differently for the MCU or bring back dead characters like Ben Urich or Purple Man. Hell, they could even still cast Lewis Tan as Danny and just pretend this Iron Fist has always looked like that.
2. If it's better to start from scratch with a new Asian Iron Fist, why does it have to be Lin Lie as the new Iron Fist and not another Asian character?? I literally gave 2 different Asian characters from the comics in the post you replied to who have only ever been Iron Fist replacements, and don't have their own lore apart from that in Pei and Fongji Wu. Why didn't you adress that at all?
   
3. Or, why not just abandon Iron Fist and focus on a different character. Like Zarex said, why not another Immortal Weapon? Fat Cobra has become more important in recent years as both a member of the Secret Avengers in the comics and as a supporting character on the Hit-Monkey show. Or why not just Lin Lie as Sword Master? If there are so many issues with Iron Fist, why wouldn't you just use and interesting, unique new character like Sword Master instead of trying to make him into Iron Fist?

If Henwick's Wing doesn't make the jump I could see either a recasting or another Immortal Weapon taking over.

I agree. This doesn't go against anything I said



Let me reiterate. Lin Lie as Sword Master is one of very few fully original new characters with their own book Marvel has had in the last 2 decades or so. Additionally he's one of the only Chinese Marvel characters ever to have been fully created and written by Chinese writers and artists. I feel like taking a character like that and stripping him of all the elements of his identity created by those Chinese writers and artists only to replace them with parts of the Iron Fist lore that were created by white Americans in the '70s in an attempt to cram his character into the Iron Fist mold for Western audiences is cynical and honestly rather disrespectful.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I disagree. Because Scott was always a legacy Ant-Man. It wasn't like Scott used to be known as The Incredible Jet-Man who had years of his own comics with that identity and then in one storyline lost his special jetpack and temporarily took on the Ant-Man mantle for a bit before giving it back to Hank. Scott's whole story begins and ends with him as Ant-Man so there is no unique identity lost.

Same with Carol. She was introduced in the Captain Marvel comics and was always part of the "Marvel " family as Ms. Marvel with the powers she now has in the MCU. She was never a character who started as the star of her own book, with her own identity and origin story completely independent of Mar-Vell.

This is different with Lin Lie, who started as the main character in his own book. He has a completely unique identity totally unrelated to any other Marvel characters. Nowadays it's actually very rare for new Marvel characters who aren't legacy heroes to be introduced in their own books so it seems very wasteful to just throw away one of the few recent totally new characters we have like that.

1. I don't think using Colleen would handcuff you to the Netflix lore. So far with Matt and Fisk they haven't really adressed that. They could just leave it vague how much it relates to the show and just focus on telling Colleen's story going forward leaving it up to the viewer if they consider it a continuation of the Netflix show. Like you said yourself "The amount of attention they pay to the Netflix cannon remains to be seen still.". Who knows, they might even just take some inspiration and casting from the Netflix shows but completely contradict it elsewhere. Like, I could still totally see them do Bullseye or Typhoid Mary completely differently for the MCU or bring back dead characters like Ben Urich or Purple Man. Hell, they could even still cast Lewis Tan as Danny and just pretend this Iron Fist has always looked like that.
2. If it's better to start from scratch with a new Asian Iron Fist, why does it have to be Lin Lie as the new Iron Fist and not another Asian character?? I literally gave 2 different Asian characters from the comics in the post you replied to who have only ever been Iron Fist replacements, and don't have their own lore apart from that in Pei and Fongji Wu. Why didn't you adress that at all?
   
3. Or, why not just abandon Iron Fist and focus on a different character. Like Zarex said, why not another Immortal Weapon? Fat Cobra has become more important in recent years as both a member of the Secret Avengers in the comics and as a supporting character on the Hit-Monkey show. Or why not just Lin Lie as Sword Master? If there are so many issues with Iron Fist, why wouldn't you just use and interesting, unique new character like Sword Master instead of trying to make him into Iron Fist?

I agree. This doesn't go against anything I said



Let me reiterate. Lin Lie as Sword Master is one of very few fully original new characters with their own book Marvel has had in the last 2 decades or so. Additionally he's one of the only Chinese Marvel characters ever to have been fully created and written by Chinese writers and artists. I feel like taking a character like that and stripping him of all the elements of his identity created by those Chinese writers and artists only to replace them with parts of the Iron Fist lore that were created by white Americans in the '70s in an attempt to cram his character into the Iron Fist mold for Western audiences is cynical and honestly rather disrespectful.

Much of my reply would be restating stuff I already said, but I want to address this question: simple reason is I am not familiar with Sword Master or the characters you referenced. Thus, I have no connection to them or opinion about them. I can only go odd what the comics are doing right now, and I do think the choice for the current Iron Fist was made for a reason. If they can use any of the other characters, then sure. Whatever. But is Sword Master a popular character? Legit question cause I know literally nothing about him, lol.

My core stance on how they will approach Iron Fist stands though, and again....I would just be repeating myself.