I asked for something in the issues. That's completely irrelevant to the discussion. You're taking something millar has said and claiming it applies as if he has said it in the comic book series. I know the internet is full of people taking qutoes out of context but this is impressive.
Pro american messages in the ultimates 2?
1. The americans win
2. Despite all their talk the ACTIONS of the liberators betray them as psycho terrorists
3. At the end despite what's happened the american government lets the ultimates go independant (FREEDOM!!)
4. The americans in the ultimates ACTUALLY FIND wmds
5. In the very first issue cap as the de facto american symbol actually talks terrorists down (well threatens but he doesn't hit them) even though they have hostages
6. Gods come to the aid of the ultimates (turns out people were right god is on americas side!)
Thats 6 examples from the issues, do the same for your point.
I know that this wasn't a reply to me, but it was similar and so I figured for contrast I would reply here. I scimmed through ULTIMATES 2 #1-13 (and the annual) and while I may not have exact issue citations, I can get them if you want to be that specific. 6 counterpoints:
1). Thor naturally is the mouth-piece for anti-U.S. jargon, although it fits his persona as a "hippie" and some seasoned cynicism about the U.S. is all well and good. But the main statement he says that I took the most issue to was defending the rights of any nation to have nukes based on the theory that Americans used them against Japan in WWII and then "hypocritically" want to remove them from other nations. I take issue because in the original ULTIMATES, Nick Fury says in no uncertain terms that those nuke strikes against Japan in Ultimate-Land were actually precise attacks on an army of Chituri alien agents. He didn't tell the entire team but he did tell most of them and you'd think Cap of all people would have counter-pointed Thor on this one. He didn't. And that in a nutshell is where the anti-American stuff came from ULTIMATES 2. Someone would say some extremist thing about America and NO CHARACTER would rebut it with facts. To not argue a point is to concede a point.
2). The narration in one of the early issues basically goes, and I am paraphrasing, "Anyone who expects the U.S. to not break a promise isn't living in the adult world." That may sound fine in 2007, but back in 2004-2006, the "Bush lied and people died" line against the Iraq war was a mighty slogan that even big media pundits applauded. It still shows up even after "the surge" has improved the situation in Iraq somewhat. Millar writing America as a country where lying is business at the time was a large statement. Again, Cuba lies to it's people on a constant basis; why does Castro get much love from within
our own borders? How about the "president" of Iran? Or the misinformation of Putin's Russia? Nope, only America is the bad guy.
3). Naturally, Stark outright lies and says the Ultimates will never be used in "military pre-emptive strikes" and then what happens? Cap personally leads them into another nation to tear out nukes and uproot the locals. More lying American government.
4). The Liberators officially gather in France, a "sort of" ally of the U.S. at the time and back then the harshest critic of our attacks on Iraq (aside for Germany). They represent countries that feel that the U.S. is being a big bully, including terrorist nations like Syria and North Korea, as well as Russia and the arab country that Cap personally invaded. For all intents and purposes these are official agents of all the countries represented. They feel justified after the Ultimate invasion of Colonel's country and, again, there is no counter-point given.
5). ULTIMATES 2 #10 I believe was the issue that I once said could have been handed out as recruitment literature for Al Queada. The Colonel is presented as an average Arab citizen whose home was destroyed by Cap, who met him personally, before he is whisked away all of a sudden ("because the U.S. soldiers shoot you", meaning unarmed civilians, "when the cameras aren't rolling", as if it was standard practice taught at every boot camp) and becomes the Middle Eastern Capt. America. Unlike those violent Americans, the Colonel and most of the Liberators take care in not harming civilians and only want to assassinate the D.C. leaders and the Ultimates themselves.
6). The Statue of Liberty is toppled with all the Liberators basically going, "You bullied our nations around, you have this coming," and nothing is said to refute that. Not a word. No one even tries to claim the Liberators themselves are hypocrites (as they claim America is one). Nope, just more "heroic cowboy" stunts to eventually kill them all. Trust me, if something so tragic as what is depicted here happened in real life to that mighty Statue, within 48 hours you would hear from U.S. citizens that we "deserved" it for "what we do to other nations". It happened in 9/11. That is something I can never agree with.
7). Black Widow personally blames America for all of Russia's ills since the fall of the czar, which had nothing to do with America and everything to do with men like Lenin and Stalin, who Russians worship to this day. Stark simply attempts to kill her in response.
8). Only Crimson Dynamo from China orders a "suicide massacre" when things go belly-up. None of the other Liberators are as cruel. Just pointing that out.
9). Finally, after Thor returns with his Norse allies to defeat Loki and all that, Cap essentially goes, "this is all our fault because we got involved with other nations", justifying the Liberators again.
10). That scene where the Liberators kills Laura Bush and threaten Cheney...I am sure they were written with a smirk.
My point? The Ultimates only won because they had to in order to fit the story. Why does "The Norse gods were on their side" make a difference? The Norse gods were on the side of the Vikings who raped and pillaged the innocent for their own gain for centuries. That certainly doesn't make America look better.
In retrospect the first half of ULTIMATES 2 really isn't this blatently political and when scimmed together it reads quite well but this was coming out at a clip of 4 issues a year at the time. It read like a drum-beat. Nowadays with tensions cooling after the Democrats won Congress in 11/06, Bush a lame duck and Obama the favorite to be President in 2009 (there is no way in hell McCain will beat him in a general election, and I'll say that now), the second half of the book reads very knee-jerk anti-Bush America.
I WILL say, though, that at least Millar & Hitch have created a work that we can still passionately debate about some 2-3 years later. Will ULTIMATES 3 & 4 under Loeb be the same? No.
In addition to gildea's comments above, I will add that you and Dread seem to leap between "pro-American" and "America under Bush after 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq is the worst nation that has ever existed on the face of the earth". I'm just throwing this out there, but it's actually possible for a book not to be one of these things, while at the same time, not being the other one of these things, either.
The impression I got from ULTIMATES 2 is that every act of terrorism on American soil or against America is deserved, but we'll triumph through brute force in the end anyway. Millar is hardly a conservative.
Setting aside the issue of your absurd conflation of "America" and "America's federal government and military leadership", and setting aside the totally subjective hyperbole, there's kind of the matter of the US government actually, you know, doing those things? I mean hey I'm just your average politically conservative registered Republican, but I personally like to reserve my accusations of "extremist" for something more than "not ignorant of political realities reported on continually for the last seven years."
Oh, I know America has countless sins to answer for, some of which are still buried. But in all seriousness, has ANY other civilized nation besides the U.S. and maybe Britain had to apologize as endlessly as we do? Even Japan still denies a lot of the **** they did during WWII and won't offer a token apology. But no one cares about that, no, America is the one that has to apologize for **** done 20 years ago endlessly. The world doesn't work as black and white as some people like it and the greatest ill of many politicians is doing what is best NOW and being unable to imagine how it will effect the future. Much of the Arab world became armed when we propped up people to fight the Soviets. Now that world is biting us back, and hard. Should we have surrended to the USSR back then? Because some people all but offer that as an option. Give up. No war is worth fighting for, and neither is this country. I disagree.
The amount of "evil American government secret cabals" stories from this eight year period have been so numerous they all but border on the brink of parody. I am bloody tired of it. I can't wait for 2009, when I will get to watch the same media who felt that a Republican President with a Republican Congress was the worst travesty on humanity since the world began eons ago suddenly feeling it is Nirvana when that exact same situation happens, only with Democrats in control. I look forward to seeing how shallow our media is. And god forbid if Obama should lose...they'll make McCain look like Hitler.
In short, I am a Democrat who is hardly blind to the ugly side of America, but I am being tired of being told to hate it because Bush is President and hasn't been a great one.
I completely disagree. End League is, I'm predicting, designed to the exact opposite of what a Millar story does. Astonishman will redeem himself, true heroism will triumph. And a lot of the characterization and stylism reminds me of an Eric Powell influence. Guys like Dead Lexington are really just kind of subtle-ified Goon villains. It's got a lot of absurdism to balance out the "gritty realism," and a lot of heroism to balance out the postmodernism.
Yeah, I agree to all that.
In short, Millar isn't Brubaker, who can put in a lot of political commentary in CAPTAIN AMERICA without making it read like Micheal Moore's jargon.
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