Kinect and it's effects on the WORLD.

[Timstuff]

I think what's ultimately going to kill the Kinect, at least from a hardcore's POV, is going to be this bermuda triangle of conceptual problems:

1) Kinect has serious latency / lag issues. This is somewhat unavoidable, because of the nature of the depth-mapping camera it uses. There is tons of data that the Kinect has to sift through and interpret, and that is going to take a while if using just Xbox hardware. This this is designed around Israeli military tech, but it has to be processed with an Xbox 360. Which leads us to...

2) System resource consumption. I've heard some people say that Kinect must use roughly 1/3 of the Xbox 360's resources just to interpret the images from the infrared camera. That's 1 of the 360's 3 cores, which means only 2 are left for designing games. Hardcore games need a lot more power than that, which is why all of Natal's games are so graphically simple compared to the regular ones (however, Microsoft probably doesn't think the target audience cares about graphics anyway). It's so it's quite likely that you will never see a hardcore game on 360 that has optional Kinect integration the way a lot of PS3 games will have with the Move.

3) Gameplay without a controller is conceptually limited. Sony did many experiments with the exact same technology MS is using with Natal when they were developing the successor to the EyeToy, and they decided the technology was too expensive and did not offer an experience that was significantly different from the Eyetoy. You are still waggling your arms around like a fool in liu of pressing buttons, and there still is not enough input options for the player to have sufficient control over the game, which makes integration into hardcore games nearly impossible. Even the supposedly "hardcore" Star Wars game looks like it will be on rails with very simplified, streamlined game design because there's no practical way for the player to tell the character which direction to run in. This is the exact same crud as the EyeToy, and all MS would need to do is ask Sony to know that that's a well that's been dry for a long time.

 

[Cth]

2) System resource consumption. I've heard some people say that Kinect must use roughly 1/3 of the Xbox 360's resources just to interpret the images from the infrared camera. That's 1 of the 360's 3 cores, which means only 2 are left for designing games. Hardcore games need a lot more power than that, which is why all of Natal's games are so graphically simple compared to the regular ones (however, Microsoft probably doesn't think the target audience cares about graphics anyway). It's so it's quite likely that you will never see a hardcore game on 360 that has optional Kinect integration the way a lot of PS3 games will have with the Move.

To be fair, that 1/3 report was shot down.

3) Gameplay without a controller is conceptually limited. Sony did many experiments with the exact same technology MS is using with Natal when they were developing the successor to the EyeToy, and they decided the technology was too expensive and did not offer an experience that was significantly different from the Eyetoy. You are still waggling your arms around like a fool in liu of pressing buttons, and there still is not enough input options for the player to have sufficient control over the game, which makes integration into hardcore games nearly impossible. Even the supposedly "hardcore" Star Wars game looks like it will be on rails with very simplified, streamlined game design because there's no practical way for the player to tell the character which direction to run in. This is the exact same crud as the EyeToy, and all MS would need to do is ask Sony to know that that's a well that's been dry for a long time.

I think they'd be better off utilizing it for navigation, system sign in, and things of that nature. Not a compelte stand alone controller solution.

I disagree it's the same thing as EyeToy at this stage though. Besides, they already had the 360 Vision Camera, so if it was just as simple as a EyeToy port they'd have gone with it.

And yes, I know Sony experimented with a lot of that stuff back in the day. If the Eye Toy could do all of that stuff back then, it makes no sense for them to have held it back. I could see redirecting resources into other development, but if it's there and works, why not release it to help EyeToy sales even if miniscule?

Besides, the infrared stuff alone is a big enough step to keep an eye out on how it COULD be used.

Supplemental to the controller? Sure. Replacing? No way.

 

[Flash Facts]

2) System resource consumption. I've heard some people say that Kinect must use roughly 1/3 of the Xbox 360's resources just to interpret the images from the infrared camera. That's 1 of the 360's 3 cores, which means only 2 are left for designing games. Hardcore games need a lot more power than that, which is why all of Natal's games are so graphically simple compared to the regular ones (however, Microsoft probably doesn't think the target audience cares about graphics anyway). It's so it's quite likely that you will never see a hardcore game on 360 that has optional Kinect integration the way a lot of PS3 games will have with the Move.

Umm Forza?

 

[Timstuff]

And yes, I know Sony experimented with a lot of that stuff back in the day. If the Eye Toy could do all of that stuff back then, it makes no sense for them to have held it back. I could see redirecting resources into other development, but if it's there and works, why not release it to help EyeToy sales even if miniscule?

The Eyetoy, on paper is "primitive" compared to the Kinect. The technology behind Kinect is a lot more impressive than Eyetoy, no-one will deny that. The problem that Sony ran into though, is that you are still ultimately using a camera to track limbs and use their movements as inputs for the game. The way Natal accomplishes this is much more sophisticated, but conceptually it's the same thing, only done better. Instead of pushing buttons, you move your body, and the camera tracks you. The key difference is that Kinect has depth perception, but I do not think that's going to make up for the fact that the player needs more input options than just moving their limbs to make a hardcore gaming experience.

Umm Forza?

I'll believe it when I see someone playing it. Until then, it's just a video like the Star Wars game (which was pre-rendered, BTW).

 

[Flash Facts]

I'll believe it when I see someone playing it. Until then, it's just a video like the Star Wars game (which was pre-rendered, BTW).

Journalist got to play it after the conference.

 

[DorkyFresh]

http://www.gamerzines.com/xbox-360/news/kinect-only-works-standing.html

if they don't fix this then all this talk about operating the interface ala Minority Report goes out the door. yes, you'd might be able to play games ala Minority Report but no one wants to have to stand up in order to select the next option on the screen...

 

[KALEL114]

Found this interesting.

Kinect has impressed us at E3. The technology behind Microsoft's motion controller is pretty damn cool. But we do have some real concerns about Kinect. Microsoft has a lot of late nights ahead if it hopes to make Kinect a smooth experience for gamers and non-gamers alike.

Here are the five things that worry us most about Kinect. We think it's going to be pretty cool, but much of Kinect's success depends on how well Microsoft can resolve these issues.

Voice Recognition
In more than a few demos, Kinect didn't always understand what people were saying. And these were folks without accents and in rooms without a lot of echo or noise. Kinect has a setting for audio that measures the amount of ambient noise in your room and filters it out, but until we can field test it, it's impossible to know how well this works. Accents are a bigger concern. We've been told the "hope" is that accents are not an issue. Maybe Microsoft can enlist Ubisoft for help, because EndWar used voice commands and did an excellent job accounting for accents.

Catching Your Movements
Some Kinect games are spot-on. Child of Eden has a good 1:1 tie to your movements and the actions on screen. Dance Central does a great job of recognizing your awesome dance moves. But then there are games like Kinect Adventures, which has delays between your movements and your avatars action. There are several more months development time and Microsoft will need to make this perfect. And it does need to be perfect. When I try to kick a ball flying towards my junk, I want my avatar to instantly kick forward, rather than get hit where it hurts.

Standing Room Only
According to the developers who gave us demos, Kinect only works when you stand. This includes menu navigation. All the cool options to grab a slider and advance through frames of a movie you are watching only work when you are on your feet. Kinect, we've been told, has problems handling your skeletal frame while sitting. The voice commands still work, but every game we've seen and even simple menu navigation have to be done with you out of your seat. That's not exactly how I want to watch my movies. If the focus for Kinect is creating games like Dance Central that naturally would require you to be off your couch, that's great. But I have to say, no one thinks "I am driving a car!" while standing up in their living room.

Microsoft tells us that you can sit while playing Kinect. It just varies based on the experience. This remains a concern until we ourselves can test out Kinect from our rear.

Games for Gamers
There are some good Kinect games beings shown at E3, but with the exception of Ubisoft's Child of Eden and (somewhat) the Star Wars game, they are all geared towards folks who have never picked up an Xbox 360 controller. This makes sense, since Microsoft's main goal with Kinect is to attract a new audience. However, Microsoft needs the core audience to tell the casual gamer what is cool. And if Microsoft doesn't get that long-time Xbox 360 gamer behind Kinect, it will fail. We need some games that show what Kinect will do for someone who loves games like Halo or Castlevania or Gears of War. I'm not saying it has to be a first-person shooter where you are the gun, but we need to see more gamers that have depth to them.

Kinect Slapped Onto a Non-Kinect Game
The final concern really applies to what happens six months after Kinect is released. If successful, publishers will want to cash in. The easiest way? Add some cheap Kinect feature to a game just to get a "Compatible with Kinect" sticker on the box. One of the big benefits of Kinect is its potential to enhance the games we already enjoy playing. Having voice recognition in an NBA game so you can play like a real point guard, shouting and motioning your other players into position would be awesome. Tacking on "realistic" free-throw shooting would be dumb.



Kinect has a lot of potential, but it also has a number of pitfalls that must be avoided. Hopefully Microsoft is up to the task. We want Kinect to succeed. Because, seriously, we have to review this stuff and we'd rather spend our days with things that are great than things that are bad.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099085p1.html

 

[Fading]

I hope they fix that if it does indeed turn out to be a legitimate problem. I've already made it known I'm not a fan of Kinect, but that doesn't mean I want those who buy it to have a bad experience on it. I've read a lot of ppl saying they care more for the non-gaming applications for Kinect such as the menu navigation, having to stand up would completely nulify the convenience of Kinect. Personally, I'd much rather just go ahead and use a controller or remote while laying in bed to navigate through the menu's in a movie than have to get out of bed (or off the couch), stand up and wave my hand, and then set or lay back down.

On top of that, if this turns out to be true, it also hurts the controller aspect. Ppl have been talking in defence of Kinect that you can still use a controller with it. However this would mean that if your playing a hardcore title with Kinect like Fable, and let's say you control the character with the controller, but have extra things you can do with Kinect, you can't set down to play the game. You'd have to be standing up with a controller in your hand to get all of the Kinect functions.

It may sound lazy lol, but I play games and watch movies to relax. Standing up is fine for a dance party of course, but if even the more time intensive hardcore titles or menu navigation mean you have to stand up, I can't see anyone being too happy with the product outside casual gamers who will use it solely for dancing and fitness titles.


Then again, it might not be an issue at all and only be a problem with a small handful of titles. So the above wasn't a condemnation of Kinect for that as much as a 'if' it happens it's not going to be a good thing statement.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Microsoft has confirmed that you do NOT need to be standing to control Kinect.

There has been some confusion about this, but Microsoft assured us that you can sit down while using Kinect. The company wants you to be able to relax and enjoy using your Xbox 360, so it says you definitely won't have to stand while watching a movie.


http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099467p1.html

 

[Fading]

Microsoft has confirmed that you do NOT need to be standing to control Kinect.

Good to hear. Apparently there was a twitter whatever (I don't use twitter lol) saying from someone at MS saying you can but that it varies from game to game.

I was looking around at this story on other sites after reading it hear to see more on it. Apparently a few others sites at E3 noticed this as well, and Edge magazine was supposed to have said that they heard a few dev's had concerns about this as well but that MS was working on it.

So hopefully the MS corrections are right. However this is on enough sites now and is spreading like wildfire (I mean I just googled Kinect have to stand and there are pages and pages on this story). So even if not true, it's turning out to be some bad press for MS.

I do want to say tho that I don't entirely doubt the ppl who went to E3 and played Kinect who are saying you can't. I just have a feeling that it's game specific. That some games will require a full body outline to work properly. I also have no doubts that some 3rd parties are going to develop it poorly where it will have trouble reading your body right. However MS themselves are saying you can sit down, so there probably are games as well that will let you. Then again I don't see Kinect being great for games that you would want to set down for (FPS's and such). So in the end I think the only important part of this is whether or not you can sit down and to navigate the 360 dashboard menu's, and I'm sure that they'll make it so you can.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Good to hear. Apparently there was a twitter whatever (I don't use twitter lol) saying from someone at MS saying you can but that it varies from game to game.

I was looking around at this story on other sites after reading it hear to see more on it. Apparently a few others sites at E3 noticed this as well, and Edge magazine was supposed to have said that they heard a few dev's had concerns about this as well but that MS was working on it.

So hopefully the MS corrections are right. However this is on enough sites now and is spreading like wildfire (I mean I just googled Kinect have to stand and there are pages and pages on this story). So even if not true, it's turning out to be some bad press for MS.

I do want to say tho that I don't entirely doubt the ppl who went to E3 and played Kinect who are saying you can't. I just have a feeling that it's game specific. That some games will require a full body outline to work properly. I also have no doubts that some 3rd parties are going to develop it poorly where it will have trouble reading your body right. However MS themselves are saying you can sit down, so there probably are games as well that will let you. Then again I don't see Kinect being great for games that you would want to set down for (FPS's and such). So in the end I think the only important part of this is whether or not you can sit down and to navigate the 360 dashboard menu's, and I'm sure that they'll make it so you can.

Yea, thats what i assume as well. Some games will require your full body to work, but things like navigating the dashboard wont require you to be standing.

 

[KALEL114]

Microsoft has confirmed that you do NOT need to be standing to control Kinect.

Sweet.

First Gamestop and now Amazon has Kinect for $149.99. Hopefully MS officialy announces the price sson.
http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Xbox-3..._1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1276787409&sr=8-1

 

[DorkyFresh]

the only thing that article says is that Microsoft assured them that they could sit while using Kinect. forgive me if i don't take Microsoft's word so easily. i'll believe it when i see it. unfortunately, none of the demonstrations at E3 showed anyone sitting down while using Kinect.

 

[KALEL114]

I guess we will have to wait until sites get to review it. There are still a lot of questions that need to be addressed. I am not getting one, but I have a couple of friends interested in it if the price is right (ie not $150).

Edit: Kotaku has another article about the sitting question.
http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes

 

[ProjectPat2280]

the only thing that article says is that Microsoft assured them that they could sit while using Kinect. forgive me if i don't take Microsoft's word so easily. i'll believe it when i see it. unfortunately, none of the demonstrations at E3 showed anyone sitting down while using Kinect.

The sitting issue only applies to certain games at this point. Controlling the dashboard wont have that issue. The sports game, fitness games, will require your whole body to be mapped, but are you really going to play a bowling game or tennis game sitting down? You don't with the Wii, you wouldn't with the Move, so complaining about it here is complaints just for complaints sake. The issue here is using Kinect when playing any kind of driving game or other like game, thats where things can become annoying. Having to stand really does not help to capture the feel of anyone driving.

 

[DorkyFresh]

The sitting issue only applies to certain games at this point. Controlling the dashboard wont have that issue.

yes...that's what they tell us, but none of us have actually seen it in practice. i understand the need to market your product as a way of getting OFF the couch, but at the same time i don't understand why they can't let people TRY using the Kinect while sitting down. if MS were truly confident in their product then this wouldn't be an issue.

The sitting issue only applies to certain games at this point. Controlling the dashboard wont have that issue. The sports game, fitness games, will require your whole body to be mapped, but are you really going to play a bowling game or tennis game sitting down?

maybe not tennis, but i often play High Velocity Bowling sitting down. :P anyway, i'm not worried about the games so much as the interfaces. i understand that these games were meant to get you off your @$$ but navigating menus weren't.

You don't with the Wii, you wouldn't with the Move, so complaining about it here is complaints just for complaints sake.

well it's a good thing no one's complaining then i was simply pointing out a flaw that could potential be a deal breaker. many people have expressed that they don't care for Kinect for the games so much as they want to be able to navigate their interfaces ala Minority Report except not everyone's going to want to stand up to navigate their menus.

The issue here is using Kinect when playing any kind of driving game or other like game, thats where things can become annoying. Having to stand really does not help to capture the feel of anyone driving.

this i totally agree with. for MS's sake, let's hope they find a solution for this conundrum. it's potentially a big problem, but it sounds like they're still working on it...

"Sitting is something we're still calibrating for."
http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes

 

[ProjectPat2280]

No one is going to have to stand to watch a movie or control your sports. Im sure of that. MS has stated you wouldn't. This wouldn't release with an issue like that. The only concern about Kinect is its price. I dont see it releasing at 150, but if it does, thats the game changer. You cant market a casual experience at 150 bux a pop.

 

[DorkyFresh]

No one is going to have to stand to watch a movie or control your sports. Im sure of that.

i realize that, but again i stress that, as of this moment, no one has seen anyone navigate Natal's menus while sitting down.

MS has stated you wouldn't.

do you believe everything MS says? i sure as hell don't...but then again i always take what big corporations say with a grain of salt regardless of their name.

This wouldn't release with an issue like that.

MS is prone to releasing faulty products before they're ready. the first 360 model, Zune, Vista...hell, they discovered a fault in the 360S within 48 hours of it's announcement (scratches discs when moved). i realize that you're not SUPPOSED to move your hardware when it's reading discs, but lower end DVD-drives don't have this problem and neither does the Wii or PS3.

granted not EVERYTHING MS releases has faults but like all companies, MS is not infallible to flaws.

This wouldn't release with an issue like that. The only concern about Kinect is its price. I dont see it releasing at 150, but if it does, thats the game changer. You cant market a casual experience at 150 bux a pop.

again, i'll agree with you on this point. $150 is quite steep for Kinect, as is $130 for a FULL PS Move set.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

MS intends users to be able to sit down and control their dashboard using Kinect, their marketing is reflecting this. They know what they are doing. Thats not to say Kinect wont have its problems, it will, but having one of the main selling points of Kinect not work like they are advertising, would end Kinects run before it started(well that and a 150 dollar price tag). I promise you MS wont make that mistake. Then again, maybe Kinect will fail regardless, so it wont matter rather this feature works or not.

 

[KALEL114]

It all boils down to price really on both consoles. That includes game prices as well. The only reason I am getting a Move controller, is because I already have an Eye. $49.99 is not that bad for me, but if I didn't have the Eye already, I probably would pass on it. MS would price themselves out of the market they are targeting if the Kinect was $150 IMO.

 

[Cth]

It all boils down to price really on both consoles. That includes game prices as well. The only reason I am getting a Move controller, is because I already have an Eye. $49.99 is not that bad for me, but if I didn't have the Eye already, I probably would pass on it. MS would price themselves out of the market they are targeting if the Kinect was $150 IMO.

To be fair, you're likely going to need the navigator which brings the price up to $80. And if you're spending $80 a lot of people will go for the $100 model which includes the camera and a game (opting to sell the camera online, etc)

$150 is on the very high end -- if they had something concrete to sell people on, they'd have more of a chance.. I'm guessing $125 is going to be the max though.

It's going to be an uphill fight though if they can't get ahead of these rumors (the sit down thing, the not-detecting-black-people thing, etc) Even if proven false, the rumors circulate like crazy and keep getting parroted.

 

[KALEL114]

The DualShock 3 can be used instead of the Navigator. That's the route I will be going with. The casual consumer will probably not know this though. I am not intersted in Sports Champions, so $49.99 is the deal for me.

 

[Tron Bonne]

To be fair, you're likely going to need the navigator which brings the price up to $80. And if you're spending $80 a lot of people will go for the $100 model which includes the camera and a game (opting to sell the camera online, etc)

You actually don't need it, you can just use the dualshock controller in its place. It's just an alternative controller designed specifically for the wand.

 

[Tron Bonne]

The DualShock 3 can be used instead of the Navigator. That's the route I will be going with. The casual consumer will probably not know this though. I am not intersted in Sports Champions, so $49.99 is the deal for me.

I'm sure they'll be some kind of indication on the box or something to let people know they don't have to buy the navigator and can use the DS3 instead.

 

[KALEL114]

Maybe, but you never know.