Comics Kurt Busiek view on Spidey and MJ

[Ultimate_Superman]

From the official DC comics Forum

> Would you care to elaborate on the reasons why you
> think Peter and MJ shouldn't be married? I know
> that's not a Superman question, but it's a debated
> enough topic among comic fans that I'm curious what
> your two-cents worth on it is.

You can probably find my thoughts on it somewhere on the 'net by doing a Google search -- it's come up a few times.

But short version -- the essence of Spider-Man is that he's caught on the horns of a dilemma, between his responsibilities as Spider-Man and his responsibilities as Peter. The classic symbol of this was frail old Aunt May, who he didn't dare tell the secret to, but who didn't understand why he didn't make it to Sunday dinner or whatever. He had to do what he had to do, but was pulled in two directions, and wound up trying to juggle conflicting responsibilities.

If he's married to MJ, then he's not caught between responsibilities, because she knows the truth, and can help him manage his responsibilities, which takes the pressure off and makes the central dilemma of the series something less than it could be. And that undercuts the thematic strength of the series -- it can still work as action-adventure, but the themes that made it stand out among superhero books are muted, less effective.

I'm not opposed to changing things, but you've got to think them through -- if you do something that mutes the theme, you need to do it in a way that brings in something else, something that makes up for that thematic loss, and the MJ marriage doesn't do that. So it's pleasant and fun, but it makes the book that much less dramatic without compensating for it in any way.

Plus, it's hard to present Spider-Man as the struggling hard-luck hero if he's married to a sexy knockout. The readership should sympathize and identify with Spidey, not envy him.

And if he's not the young, struggling, hard-luck guy who's trying to juggle his responsibilities and doing the best he can, then what makes him different? If he's just another superhero, when he used to be distinctive and unique, then something important's been lost.

kdb

 

[Dark Spidey]

He obviously never read JMS and Romita Jr's run on ASM then. Because for a long time there was this whole on going sub-plot about how Peter's life as Spider-Man had put strain on their marriage.

I can see where he's coming from. But the problem isn't the concept of the marriage itself, it's how writers address it.

 

[Sloth7d]

So he wants Spider-man to date an ugly chick?
I don't understand that. Especially since if he was a true Spider-man fan he would know that Peter has always dated the knock out babes and always gotten them by showing his smarts rather than looks. And in that sense Peter Parker gives readers who identify with him hope. Not envy.

Furthermore the juggling responsibilties thing could have kept going had they allowed Baby May to exist. But they didn't. And she didn't. So it didn't.

But if he had read the unmasking and Civil War storylines he would know the whole hardluck concept of Peter is stronger than ever.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I agree with Dark Spidey. I see where Busiek is coming from but cant Peter's marriage to MJ be even more stressful to him, in a way? Before, if someone found out his ID, it was just Peter that was in danger. Now his wife is also a target. Plus, there is just the day to day stress that MJ has to deal with. "Will my husband make it home tonight or is this the time when he will move a second too slowly? Will someone shoot or pumpkin bomb or whatever at just the right time?" She has to constantly deal with that possibiity. Thats something that I think needs to be adressed in the marriage: Mary Jane's POV. It was touched on in the Sensational Spider-Man Annual, but it needs to be done more often.

 

[Guybrush]

What works with Spider-Man, is even with all the crap he have to deal with, and the problems he have. Every one of us will probably trade places with him in a second, and MJ is certainly one of the reasons we would.

 

[littleredhat]

My argument for the marriage is this. As a woman I feel that MJ is the female counterpart to Peter. Sure she's gorgeous and successfull in her carrer but she suffers a huge problem in that the love of her life can't stop putting himself in danger for the sake of others. It should be easy for her to dive into her mask of an airheaded party girl but she can't. She has to follow her heart no matter how much it screws up her life. Just like Peter.

I relate to Peter but I also relate to MJ.

This is a character that has proved strong enough to star in her own popular ongoing solo book.

The problem with this artist is that he still see's MJ as the hero's love interest.

MJ is too well rounded a character for that. The solution is not to get rid of her but to use treat her more like Peter's costar.

Like in addition to the main ongoing Peter problem central plot you could have a subplot featureing MJ's problems. Then have them intercect.

It's not like her life outside the marriage is boring. She's a popular model and actress. Their used to be lots very popular of "model girl" books for girls that stared characters not half as good as MJ.

Besides every Spider-Man fan 20 and under has grown up with MJ and the marriage so any change will be met with outrage.

 

[shinlyle]

Okay, first off, I'm a big fan of Kurt Busiek's works, and I can't name on all my fingers the stories he's done that I love. He's a great writer, and I respect him alot. Also, his reasons are valid for disliking the marriage. They make sense, and I'm taking them into account...

...but writers just don't know how to handle the marriage. We've had major changes galore throughout the history of the Spider-verse. Norman unmasking Peter, Gwen dying, alien cotume, dating Black Cat, the marriage, Harry accepting his father's legacy and then redeeming himself, the clone saga, the relaunch, the totem arc, sins past, and right up to the unmasking and Aunt May getting shot.

For 45 years, Spidey has been changing and growing. He's been through change after chnge after change, and writers have found ways to adjust, and move on. Spider-Man being married isn't this insurmountable obstacle for writers to overcome. It's actually quite simple to handle...but no one wants to admit it. I think, once Peter and Mj were married, there was a stint where MJ was simply written as an extensin of Peter. She was only there when he got home, or when they went out. MJ ceased to exist outside of Peter. JMS, despite his abundance of flaws, is one of the few writers who didn't do this (until recently). He had MJ getting an acting gig, interacting with the Avengers, and basically remaining the strong, independant woman she was back when Stan introduced her back in the day.

I think, were this approach maintained, we'd see a world where, instead of Peter having good luck because of MJ, he'd have to cope with the bad luck he has, which now affects his wife. THAT'S how it should be done. Show MJ having to deal with, not just the Spider-Man parts of their life together, but the Peter Parker parts of it...oops....they unmasked him in public and they can't do that, now, can they?

Anyways, those are my thoughts on it. I think, once we get writers on there who can use continuity for a stepping stone instead of a stumbling block, that we'll begin to see the marriage used more amicably.

 

[dkamphaus43]

It sounds like Busiek overlooked quite a few things when he made his statement.

 

[spider greg]

I know I'm in the minority (which is the way I like it) but I agree with everything Kurt says, and have agreed for quite a while. Every time this topic comes up there's always ideas for a quick fix, but the bottom line is the marriage always hit a dead end. Spidey is too "Superman and Lois Lane-ish" where you can't have one without the other. *starts singing Married w/ Children theme*.Spider-man's a loner and has always been more interesting that way.

 

[Guybrush]

I know I'm in the minority (which is the way I like it) but I agree with everything Kurt says, and have agreed for quite a while. Every time this topic comes up there's always ideas for a quick fix, but the bottom line is the marriage always hit a dead end. Spidey is too "Superman and Lois Lane-ish" where you can't have one without the other. *starts singing Married w/ Children theme*.Spider-man's a loner and has always been more interesting that way.

Spider-Man might be a loner, but Peter Parker isn't. Lets not make him Wolverine.

 

[spider greg]

Spider-Man might be a loner, but Peter Parker isn't. Lets not make him Wolverine.

Peter Parker is a loner, and I don't want him to be any thing like Wolverine.

 

[Guybrush]

Peter Parker isn't a loner, he always had a love interest, from the college years up until the clone saga he always had a circle of friends, and he never shown any desire to be a loner.

He might be socially akward, he might hurt his social life by being Spider-Man, but he was never portrayed as a loner, he ain't Batman.

 

[Captivated]

But short version -- the essence of Spider-Man is that he's caught on the horns of a dilemma, between his responsibilities as Spider-Man and his responsibilities as Peter. The classic symbol of this was frail old Aunt May, who he didn't dare tell the secret to, but who didn't understand why he didn't make it to Sunday dinner or whatever. He had to do what he had to do, but was pulled in two directions, and wound up trying to juggle conflicting responsibilities.

If he's married to MJ, then he's not caught between responsibilities, because she knows the truth, and can help him manage his responsibilities, which takes the pressure off and makes the central dilemma of the series something less than it could be. And that undercuts the thematic strength of the series -- it can still work as action-adventure, but the themes that made it stand out among superhero books are muted, less effective.

Oh, BULL...

"If he's married to MJ, then he's not caught between responsibilities"!? Are you serious?! The HUGE, GIGANTIC FLAW in his logic is that being married to MJ simplifies his personal life. Just the opposite! Marriage just made the pull of his personal life all the more compelling and the consequences of neglecting it all the more serious.

MJ "knows" so she might not be confused when Peter stands her up... but she STILL may be annoyed or terrified and the conflict that his alter ego may cause is certainly still there... perhaps on a more serious level.

MJ may be able to support him and help make his personal life more meaningful (and interesting, if WRITTEN properly!), but it also means he has BIGGER conflicts when deciding how to prioritize his life. And, because his personal life holds so much importance to him, he is also much more vulnerable.

Marriage takes the pressure off of him trying to "juggle conflicting responsibilities." Yeah right. May-be he doesn't have to worry about who to "date" and he can be more honest with his "neglect," but I really don't see how it "takes the pressure off and makes the central dilemma of the series something less than it could be." [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

I only see a bunch of [SIZE=-1]unimaginative, whining, writers making it LESS than it should be. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

 

[Captivated]

Peter Parker isn't a loner, he always had a love interest, from the college years up until the clone saga he always had a circle of friends, and he never shown any desire to be a loner.

He might be socially akward, he might hurt his social life by being Spider-Man, but he was never portrayed as a loner, he ain't Batman.

There you go.

He was alone in high school because the other students didn't respect his "smarts" and made fun of him... but it was not his choice. He wanted to have friends and date.

When the spider increased his confidence level and he was around a more mature crowd in college he enjoyed a better social life. It was his secret, obsessive, guilt-driven responsibilty as Spider-Man that made him feel isolated at times. But he didn't enjoy the isolation.

 

[shinlyle]

Oh, BULL...

"If he's married to MJ, then he's not caught between responsibilities"!? Are you serious?! The HUGE, GIGANTIC FLAW in his logic is that being married to MJ simplifies his personal life. Just the opposite! Marriage just made the pull of his personal life all the more compelling and the consequences of neglecting it all the more serious.

MJ "knows" so she might not be confused when Peter stands her up... but she STILL may be annoyed or terrified and the conflict that his alter ego may cause is certainly still there... perhaps on a more serious level.

MJ may be able to support him and help make his personal life more meaningful (and interesting, if WRITTEN properly!), but it also means he has BIGGER conflicts when deciding how to prioritize his life. And, because his personal life holds so much importance to him, he is also much more vulnerable.

Marriage takes the pressure off of him trying to "juggle conflicting responsibilities." Yeah right. May-be he doesn't have to worry about who to "date" and he can be more honest with his "neglect," but I really don't see how it "takes the pressure off and makes the central dilemma of the series something less than it could be." [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

I only see a bunch of [SIZE=-1]unimaginative, whining, writers making it LESS than it should be. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

Given how everyone in the biz seems to regard how "easy" things become after you get married, I'm starting to wonder how many of them are actually married. Marriage is work...it really is. Adding marriage to Peter Parker's list of personal responsibilities only makes him that much more accountable for his situation, and also adds that much more conflict to his life!

Ugh...why is it that I have to respout this same spiel every month on here?

 

[Sloth7d]

Spider-Man might be a loner, but Peter Parker isn't. Lets not make him Wolverine.

Agreed. Which is why him being on the Avengers is just a little weird to me. At the most I see him being a reservist.

 

[spider greg]

Peter Parker isn't a loner, he always had a love interest, from the college years up until the clone saga he always had a circle of friends, and he never shown any desire to be a loner.

He might be socially akward, he might hurt his social life by being Spider-Man, but he was never portrayed as a loner, he ain't Batman.

I see what you're saying, and I agree, but I think our definition of "loner", at least in terms of Peter Parker is different. I mean to say he's not a socially outgoing person, not a "I hate the world" loner. And even Bruce Wayne has friends.

 

[spider greg]

Given how everyone in the biz seems to regard how "easy" things become after you get married, I'm starting to wonder how many of them are actually married. Marriage is work...it really is. Adding marriage to Peter Parker's list of personal responsibilities only makes him that much more accountable for his situation, and also adds that much more conflict to his life!

Ugh...why is it that I have to respout this same spiel every month on here?

That's kind of the point, while being married, and especially having a kid, like some people want ,it should be pretty much impossible to be Spider-man, at least under Peter's circumstances.

 

[The Infernal]

He obviously never read JMS and Romita Jr's run on ASM then. Because for a long time there was this whole on going sub-plot about how Peter's life as Spider-Man had put strain on their marriage.

I can see where he's coming from. But the problem isn't the concept of the marriage itself, it's how writers address it.

Bingo. It's a problem a few writers seem to express. Though if it went their way then Spider-man would be more like a sitcom where there isn't a lot of character development through the series, just a bunch of jokes in the same situation every episode. Though even sitcoms nowadays have learned to let characters progress and not become stale.

Though I can see a point about central themes, but to me Spider-man's story wasn't such a confined theme. To me he's just a guy trying to be the best he can be in difficult circumstances and that leaves room for a lot of development.

If the writers all stuck to his assertion of what Spider-man aught to be then Spider-man would have ended its run decades ago.

 

[Captivated]

That's kind of the point, while being married, and especially having a kid, like some people want ,it should be pretty much impossible to be Spider-man, at least under Peter's circumstances.

Who's point? Your point? That is certainly NOT what Kurt Busiek was saying:

Kurt: But short version -- the essence of Spider-Man is that he's caught on the horns of a dilemma, between his responsibilities as Spider-Man and his responsibilities as Peter. The classic symbol of this was frail old Aunt May, who he didn't dare tell the secret to, but who didn't understand why he didn't make it to Sunday dinner or whatever. He had to do what he had to do, but was pulled in two directions, and wound up trying to juggle conflicting responsibilities.

If he's married to MJ, then he's not caught between responsibilities, because she knows the truth, and can help him manage his responsibilities, which takes the pressure off and makes the central dilemma of the series something less than it could be. And that undercuts the thematic strength of the series -- it can still work as action-adventure, but the themes that made it stand out among superhero books are muted, less effective.

That is his point and it is just ridiculous.

As I said... marriage just made the pull of his personal life all the more compelling and the consequences of neglecting it all the more serious.

MJ "knows" so when Peter stands her up or "runs away" she doesn't think he's a coward... but she still may be ANNOYED or TERRIFIED and the potential for conflict that his alter ego may cause is certainly still there... perhaps on a more serious level.

So MJ is there to make his personal life more meaningful (and INTERESTING, if WRITTEN properly!), but it also means he has BIGGER conflicts when deciding how to prioritize his life. And, because his personal life holds so much importance to him, he is also much more vulnerable.

May-be he doesn't have to worry about who to "date" and he can be more honest with his "neglect" when he disappears for days, but to say that marriage "takes the pressure off and makes the central dilemma of the series something less than it could be." [SIZE=-1] That is just an idiotic statement.[/SIZE]

 

[DACrowe]

It is a terrible argument Busiek creates because:

1. There can still be balancing dual responsibilities while married. So they can no longer using boring Aunt May but make it a more adult and realistic responsibility of juggling a struggling marriage with being a superhero and how it strains the realtionship.

2. Peter has been a character of growth. To keep him single and in his early '20s for the last 20 years would be boring and the series would be stuck in status quo and suck. Kind of like how for the last 4 years after MJ came back Joey Q put the brakes down and said "NO MORE PROGRESSION." Hence all the bull**** "SHOCKING EVENT OF THE MONTH" to make the series seem fresh. Removing MJ will not solve this problem. Only amplify it.

3. When well written Peter can still be down on his luck and be married to MJ. It was bad writers in the 'mid '90s and the last 3-4 years that have forgotten that. Which is a shame because JMS/Romita Jr. did the marriage pretty well.

 

[shinlyle]

That's kind of the point, while being married, and especially having a kid, like some people want ,it should be pretty much impossible to be Spider-man, at least under Peter's circumstances.

Peter's whole life has been about him trying to balance the impossibility of having a normal life and being the costumed adventurer, Spider-man...I'd say being married is the most logical and entertaining choice.

 

[Sloth7d]

I liked it when Peter had a friend at the daily bugle(forget his name) and the dude is always trying to hang out with him, but Pete keeps standing him up because of Spider-man. And if you noticed, what ever happened to that. Pete no longer has any friends. Well he has Flash again, but you only see him in one of the three Spider-man books.

 

[spider greg]

Who's point? Your point? That is certainly NOT what Kurt Busiek was saying:



That is his point and it is just ridiculous.

As I said... marriage just made the pull of his personal life all the more compelling and the consequences of neglecting it all the more serious.

MJ "knows" so when Peter stands her up or "runs away" she doesn't think he's a coward... but she still may be ANNOYED or TERRIFIED and the potential for conflict that his alter ego may cause is certainly still there... perhaps on a more serious level.

So MJ is there to make his personal life more meaningful (and INTERESTING, if WRITTEN properly!), but it also means he has BIGGER conflicts when deciding how to prioritize his life. And, because his personal life holds so much importance to him, he is also much more vulnerable.

May-be he doesn't have to worry about who to "date" and he can be more honest with his "neglect" when he disappears for days, but to say that marriage "takes the pressure off and makes the central dilemma of the series something less than it could be." [SIZE=-1] That is just an idiotic statement.[/SIZE]

I never said it was his point, but I guess I should've been more clear. I meant, that's why he shouldn't be married. I hear your points, and I understand what you're trying to say, but even with a good writer how long is this going to last, it's hard enough to write something good with him being single let alone being married. How many times will MJ be ANNOYED or TERRIFIED? till it gets old, which it already is. The character is supposed to be around for a long time, even out live us, keeping the character at his roots is the best way to handle this.
For the record, please refrain from saying statements that you don't agree with are idiotic. I agree with the statement and don't like to called an idiot because I do.

 

[spider greg]

Peter's whole life has been about him trying to balance the impossibility of having a normal life and being the costumed adventurer, Spider-man...I'd say being married is the most logical and entertaining choice.

At least for a while.