Lee Bermejo and Brian Azzarello's Joker Graphic Novel

[ultimatefan]

i dont see anything that will date this book. at all. the fashion, cars, and story elements werent even all that modern. a do not think a modern bmw and a hummer are going to date this.

the only thing that seemed really modern were croc and his thugs with thier timbalands and headbands, but that has been pretty standard gangsta wear for better than two decades now.

the story gave me a very seventies noir vibe.

what exactly is so dated and trendy?

Nothing, really. It´s a story of a small-time thug thinking he has the chance of a lifetime when he meets the king daddy of the underworld, and he slowly but surely realizes his master, while brilliant, is also a deranged psycho who kills and destroys more for his own twisted amusement and entertainment than any logic or practical goal. That´s not trendy, that´s the mystery of evil beyond reason or explanation, and that´s a very universal theme.

 

[CaptainClown]

I disagree - Dent's threat to have the contents of the case disappeared suggests that the contents are leverage that can be used against Dent in Joker's final bid for control of Gotham, and that Dent is very worried about it, from the get-go. So I think it's very relevant.

I don't think its relevant because the story isn't about them. It is about Johnny Frost. While it may be the trump card for Joker it is nothing to Frost. He is just witnessing Joker in action. Frost is just witnessing his madness and almost admiring his ability to think ahead.
It's contents are just shown to be important to Two-face. Anything past that is just looking to far into it.

If the story was about Joker's fight for Gotham then yes I would agree, however I feel the story at its core is from Frost's pov and his interpretation of the disease of Gotham.

 

[frakkingoff]

I don't think its relevant because the story isn't about them. It is about Johnny Frost. While it may be the trump card for Joker it is nothing to Frost. He is just witnessing Joker in action. Frost is just witnessing his madness and almost admiring his ability to think ahead.
It's contents are just shown to be important to Two-face. Anything past that is just looking to far into it.

If the story was about Joker's fight for Gotham then yes I would agree, however I feel the story at its core is from Frost's pov and his interpretation of the disease of Gotham.

I agree, yes, that the story is ultimately about Frost and his shifting perspective on the Joker. Thematically, the case has nothing to do with the story.

I just want to make sure I understand the plot (which seems, in these cases, to be moving beyond me). And if the writer decided it's unimportant enough not to explain or show us, then that's fine by me - I just don't want to have missed something that might be there.

 

[CaptainClown]

I think he emphasizes its importance by making it ambiguous. That way the reader can mentally increase its importance to two-face then having it actually being revealed. Also having it told from Frost's point of view we are kept in the dark of its content and on what exactly is going on. However like frost you can piece together what is exactly taking place through context clues.

 

[deathfromabove]

and by not letting us know "whats in the box" the reader can insert anything they can think of. if it was revealed many would feel it wasnt cool/badass/interesting etc enough.

 

[Yurka]

Ive read it like 2 times and I'm still not sure if its implied that Joker banged Jonnys girl.
Anyone?

 

[frakkingoff]

Ive read it like 2 times and I'm still not sure if its implied that Joker banged Jonnys girl.
Anyone?

If by banged, you mean raped, then yes.

 

[deathfromabove]

Ive read it like 2 times and I'm still not sure if its implied that Joker banged Jonnys girl.
Anyone?

if by banged you mean had sex with then yes. he is zipping up his pants and her panties are lying on the car seat.

whether or not it was rape is a little more vague.

 

[Drz]

Yeah you can see a clear joy from Jonny's wife... oh wait, she seems shocked and so is Jonny, maybe Joker just showed his huge penis instead or it was just shockingly white so their all shocked there lololol.

 

[frakkingoff]

whether or not it was rape is a little more vague.

I think it was absolutely clear that it was rape.

A) She looks both mortified and shamed afterwards.
B) Jonny looks equally mortified and in shock.
C) Joker did it to get back at Jonny (for meeting with Dent secretly). It was a punishment ("that makes us even, no?")
D) Joker's "joke" about paying her whatever it was worth (i.e., like a prostitute) makes no sense if she did it willingly for her own pleasure.

Sorry, I don't know how you can call it "vague." It was about as clear and explicit as could be given the fact that they didn't actually show the act (for obvious reasons).

For me, this was the most unsettling part of the book.

Many people had to go back a second time before they got it - but I think that's because it was so shocking, their mind didn't comprehend what was laid out in front of them (it might never occur to you that so shocking a crime could be committed by so beloved a character - but that's the point of the novel, no?). Personally, I stopped in my tracks and read that scene three times before continuing - not because I didn't understand it, but because it was so shocking, I couldn't believe my own eyes and thought maybe I was misinterpreting it (unfortunately, I wasn't). It really feels icky - but it's honest, isn't it? The Joker really IS a horrific person, isn't he? I've never felt that before in my heart, even though abstractly, I know it mentally.

Now, as for whether or not the Joker raped Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke," that's more vague - and it could be argued from either point of view (personally, I think he DID rape her, though it was much less unsettling - perhaps because it was so vague and it never occurred to me until years later that that might have happened).

 

[Yurka]

I think it was absolutely clear that it was rape.

A) She looks both mortified and shamed afterwards.
B) Jonny looks equally mortified and in shock.
C) Joker did it to get back at Jonny (for meeting with Dent secretly). It was a punishment ("that makes us even, no?")
D) Joker's "joke" about paying her whatever it was worth (i.e., like a prostitute) makes no sense if she did it willingly for her own pleasure.

Sorry, I don't know how you can call it "vague." It was about as clear and explicit as could be given the fact that they didn't actually show the act (for obvious reasons).

For me, this was the most unsettling part of the book.

Many people had to go back a second time before they got it - but I think that's because it was so shocking, their mind didn't comprehend what was laid out in front of them (it might never occur to you that so shocking a crime could be committed by so beloved a character - but that's the point of the novel, no?). Personally, I stopped in my tracks and read that scene three times before continuing - not because I didn't understand it, but because it was so shocking, I couldn't believe my own eyes and thought maybe I was misinterpreting it (unfortunately, I wasn't). It really feels icky - but it's honest, isn't it? The Joker really IS a horrific person, isn't he? I've never felt that before in my heart, even though abstractly, I know it mentally.

Now, as for whether or not the Joker raped Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke," that's more vague - and it could be argued from either point of view (personally, I think he DID rape her, though it was much less unsettling - perhaps because it was so vague and it never occurred to me until years later that that might have happened).

Thanks for clearing that up and I agree. I thought he raped her but I really couldn't believe it so I re-read it a few times but was still in shock I guess. That was really the only time in the book I really felt disgusted by the Joker, even though he murders an old couple in bed with a razor, I still felt that was more shocking.
I cant remember if that took place after Jonny saved his life and Joker really was "getting even" in a truly perverted Joker-esqe way.

 

[GoblinWhirlwind]

I don't think I'll be able to buy it for a while.. I'm only gonna be able to scrape together enough for either the GN, or HB II. Fortunately I'm getting it from my library, so I'll at least be able to read it and scan anything I want out of it. Is there an art gallery in the back?

 

[deathfromabove]

I think it was absolutely clear that it was rape.

A) She looks both mortified and shamed afterwards.
B) Jonny looks equally mortified and in shock.
C) Joker did it to get back at Jonny (for meeting with Dent secretly). It was a punishment ("that makes us even, no?")
D) Joker's "joke" about paying her whatever it was worth (i.e., like a prostitute) makes no sense if she did it willingly for her own pleasure.

Sorry, I don't know how you can call it "vague." It was about as clear and explicit as could be given the fact that they didn't actually show the act (for obvious reasons).

For me, this was the most unsettling part of the book.

Many people had to go back a second time before they got it - but I think that's because it was so shocking, their mind didn't comprehend what was laid out in front of them (it might never occur to you that so shocking a crime could be committed by so beloved a character - but that's the point of the novel, no?). Personally, I stopped in my tracks and read that scene three times before continuing - not because I didn't understand it, but because it was so shocking, I couldn't believe my own eyes and thought maybe I was misinterpreting it (unfortunately, I wasn't). It really feels icky - but it's honest, isn't it? The Joker really IS a horrific person, isn't he? I've never felt that before in my heart, even though abstractly, I know it mentally.

Now, as for whether or not the Joker raped Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke," that's more vague - and it could be argued from either point of view (personally, I think he DID rape her, though it was much less unsettling - perhaps because it was so vague and it never occurred to me until years later that that might have happened).

i meant vague as in not explicit. although i would assume it was rape we dont know what really happened.

and i agree with you about the point of the book and one of the things that makes it great. it shows the joker is what all know to be true. he is a horrible human being. a monster. not funny. and not someone you would really want to know.

bermejo said in one of his interviews that a character like the joker is easy to glamorize but the truth is, he is a deplorable and evil man. and i think that is what the book set out to show.

 

[The Jester]

Ok, so I purchased the book on its release date and have read it about three times now. This unique world that's created is amazing and I'd absolutely love for there to be another story set in it. I Love how every character is represented: Joker, Riddler, Killer Croc, Harley,Batman etc. I honestly found nothing that I didn't like. It was far better than what i expected.

Talking with a friend, I thought it would be extrememly awesome if they made a sort of a prequel graphic novel. Most would probably despise this idea, but in my opinion would be a perfect companion. Like I said, this would be a prequel with Joker being locked up in Arkham. It would just show his daily routine there with Scarecrow and Mad HAtter as secondary characters. The basic plot would be Joker almost making a bet with scarecrow and mad hatter that he can easlily get out of arkham if he wanted to, with the story ending exactly where "Joker" begins, him leaving.

I can just picture a scene in Arkham's cafeteria where someone picks a fight with him and, as my friend said, joker tossing his hot soup into his face.

 

[GoblinWhirlwind]

I think it was absolutely clear that it was rape.

A) She looks both mortified and shamed afterwards.
B) Jonny looks equally mortified and in shock.
C) Joker did it to get back at Jonny (for meeting with Dent secretly). It was a punishment ("that makes us even, no?")
D) Joker's "joke" about paying her whatever it was worth (i.e., like a prostitute) makes no sense if she did it willingly for her own pleasure.

Sorry, I don't know how you can call it "vague." It was about as clear and explicit as could be given the fact that they didn't actually show the act (for obvious reasons).

For me, this was the most unsettling part of the book.

Many people had to go back a second time before they got it - but I think that's because it was so shocking, their mind didn't comprehend what was laid out in front of them (it might never occur to you that so shocking a crime could be committed by so beloved a character - but that's the point of the novel, no?). Personally, I stopped in my tracks and read that scene three times before continuing - not because I didn't understand it, but because it was so shocking, I couldn't believe my own eyes and thought maybe I was misinterpreting it (unfortunately, I wasn't). It really feels icky - but it's honest, isn't it? The Joker really IS a horrific person, isn't he? I've never felt that before in my heart, even though abstractly, I know it mentally.

Now, as for whether or not the Joker raped Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke," that's more vague - and it could be argued from either point of view (personally, I think he DID rape her, though it was much less unsettling - perhaps because it was so vague and it never occurred to me until years later that that might have happened).

I've always imagined Joker as not being interested one bit in sexual pleasure. He doesn't have emotions and feelings like we do, or at least not in the same fashion. That's why I've never liked the whole "Mad Love" thing between him and Harley. SHE should be the one in love with him, the Joker just tolerates her. I don't think he should ever care one bit whether she's there or not.. he sorta just lets her tag along.

 

[CaptainClown]

There is one like what you described. Arkham Asylum Living Hell

 

[CaptainClown]

I've always imagined Joker as not being interested one bit in sexual pleasure. He doesn't have emotions and feelings like we do, or at least not in the same fashion. That's why I've never liked the whole "Mad Love" thing between him and Harley. SHE should be the one in love with him, the Joker just tolerates her. I don't think he should ever care one bit whether she's there or not.. he sorta just lets her tag along.

See, I see Joker as someone who would rape you (male or female) if he thought it was funny and would ultimately hurt you. Not for sexual pleasure.

 

[JaD]

I was at Borders today and couldn't find this dammit. I'll try again later or someplace else.

 

[The Jester]

There is one like what you described. Arkham Asylum Living Hell

I'll add that to my list. Thanks

 

[CaptainClown]

well I don't think its that good, but the premise is what you described.

 

[The Jester]

Then I'll read it at my comic book shop..making the owner think im just taking awhile to decide on my purchase

 

[Ramystein]

Then I'll read it at my comic book shop..making the owner think im just taking awhile to decide on my purchase

"I'll read comic books at the store so I don't have to buy them." - Bart Simpson. (Ok, so I probably botched that quote up cause I can't remember it well).

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Read the part where Joker owns Two-Face who begs for his life, and by that part stopped reading. Seriously, while some parts are pure win, I hate the way all the villains in this are used for the sole purpose of making the Joker look way better. Penguin was just fodder, Riddler out-riddled and now dent is pleading for his life? sorry, I'm not convinced. Two-Face is notoriously known for not fearing the Joker, governed by the will of the coin not a will to live. I'll try and find the rest (I'm using the internet here) but I already smell overration after that scene.

 

[Greg]

Read the part where Joker owns Two-Face who begs for his life, and by that part stopped reading. Seriously, while some parts are pure win, I hate the way all the villains in this are used for the sole purpose of making the Joker look way better. Penguin was just fodder, Riddler out-riddled and now dent is pleading for his life? sorry, I'm not convinced. Two-Face is notoriously known for not fearing the Joker, governed by the will of the coin not a will to live. I'll try and find the rest (I'm using the internet here) but I already smell overration after that scene.

My Harvey... pleading...?

 

[CaptainClown]

My Harvey... pleading...?

read it and you will understand.