Leonardo: Hypocrite?

[Leon the Professional]

Can someone explain to me what exactly Raphael was doing as the Nigh****cher that was so different from what Leonardo himself was doing in the jungles of South America, or what the turtles all do together as a team in the city for that matter?

The only difference I see is that Raph wears a costume, which if something is better since the turtles are concerned with keeping their existence a secret.

So just what was Raph doing wrong to justify Leo being so upset with him? I don't see any real reason for Leo to be pissed, and I don't remember him ever giving a good explanation for why he is upset.

I'm thinking it's just poor writing. Munroe just needed an excuse for Raph and Leo to have a conflict culminating in a fight, and so he threw this idea together without really thinking it through. Maybe I'm just not seeing how it makes sense.

 

[ninjaspyder13]

Part of it was poor writing.

Technically, the threat posed by Raphael going out to regularly patrol the neighborhood every night ALONE (willingly putting himself in danger) is never specifically spelled out. The TMNT have reason to want to avoid being captured alone -- scientists dissecting them, people investigating the sewers to extirpate them. We unfortunately never get a sense of this threat.

Michelangelo ventures the surface, but people might just assume he's in a costume. Plus he isn't looking for trouble.

The Nigh****cher is more likely to create enemies because of his actions. If Raphael is ever targeted and his real identity is ever discovered, he risks the TMNT to public exposure.

As for Leo being a hypocrite... well, he is.

"The road you're on is a dead end. Believe me, I've tried it."

We watch Leo kill a guy (offscreen) at the beginning. Vigilante? Questionable behavior? Yeah. Then again, he is in a rural environment, as opposed to an urban environment (his presence is not very public, whereas Nigh****cher gets constant media coverage). Plus, since Leo is thousands of miles away, it will be that much harder for anyone who might capture him to trace him back to his family in the sewers of NYC.

Raph fights right in the neighborhood above his home. He puts the whole family at greater risk this way.

On top of it all, Leo IS a hypocrite. If you watch his interactions with Raph in the argument before the fight, observe how he reacts to Raphael's, especially with the pointing. Raphael points at Leo so much that it's overkill. You have to be blind not to notice the excessiveness of the action. That makes us notice Leo's reaction all the more. Right before his "I'm better than you" bomb, Leo, at last points an accusing finger at Raphael. They're doing the same thing. Leo's just better at covering it up until he finally lets loose. Not so noble after all.

He sees himself as a more capable fighter and more responsible in all aspects of life. But he doesn't realize that his actions are no more honorable than Raph's.

The information is actually there, and you'll pick up a lot more of it if you rewatch the movie one or two times and/or read the prequel comics. But not enough of it is directly pointed out. It's like the director assumes we'll pick up all the little hints and cues on the first viewing. The Leo/Raph conflict made sense to me on the first viewing. But I'm a TMNT fan who knows about the characters in their other incarnations. Again, if you rewatch the movie, you'll see that the information is there -- random comments are in fact not random at all (with the exception of anything attempting to be humorous or trying to make logical sense of the monster plot).

Good material. But the writing was certainly frayed at the edges.

 

[Mandi-chan]

Yeah, I didn't get it either.

Why was Leo so hellbent against the Nigh****cher?

Because he was a vigilante?

Well, that doesn't make sense....Casey's one, the TMNT as a team are, and Leo himself was one on his little trip to South America.

Because of his methods?

Again, that doesn't make sense since the Nigh****cher's methods were no different than Leo's. In fact, from what we saw in the movie, he didn't kill his enemy like Leo did...

Because the guy was getting a lot of attention on the news?

Maybe, but if we really do consider this movie a loose sequel to the original films then that doesn't add up either since the boys landed on the cover of a newspaper in the second movie...

The only reason I can come up with is that Leo was jealous of the attention the Nigh****ch got from his family. Mike respected the guy, and Raph (who was the person in question) defended him.

But, that's a really stupid reason for Leo to be against the Nigh****cher.

However, as we see in the movie, his inflated ego drives him to hunt down the Nigh****cher and preach to him about the error of his ways being a vigilante (totally glossing over the fact that he, his family, and a friend of his are ALL vigilante's themselves).

His actions were completely hypocritical and senseless to me.

I do get why he was so pissed when he discovered it was Raph though.

Leo did act alone in South America, but it wasn't anywhere near as populated there...so the risk of being caught was low, especially since the people there were grateful for his actions.

In NYC, the population is high, and vigilante's are more shunned than praised. The authorities want them arrested.

While the TMNT do act as vigilante's, they're actions are done as a team. They can watch each other's backs, to prevent from getting caught. And Casey's a human, so it's no big deal if the cops catch him.

 

[Spidey]

It does seem a bit hypocritical and presumptuous of Leo to denounce Raph for going rogue vigilante. The only difference I see would be that Leo's perimeter was more contained and there was less opportunity for violence and retaliation, which would only lead to more lives put in jeopardy.

For example, if the Nigh****cher were to mop the pavement with a group of thugs and they took it as some type of attack by a rival gang, they would retaliate and endanger the lives of those in the crossfire, the citizens of New York. Out in the jungle, Leo could get the bad guys alone with him and take them out quickly and cleanly.

 

[Buslady]

I wanna know what Leo thought when he was LECTURING Mister Night-watcher ...that was funny, what did he think Raph was gonna just take off his helmet and go 'jee wiz brother, your right...i should stop this silliness and go home' HHAHAHAHAAA

 

[Mandi-chan]

The thing is...he didn't know Raph was the Nigh****cher until AFTER the helmet fell off.

So, why was he so against the Nigh****cher, and what gives him the right to chase after the guy and start lecturing him, telling him it's wrong to act as a vigilante (even though Casey, the TMNT as a team, and LEO HIMSELF are all vigilantes!!!!!)?

Leo's a prick.

 

[Leon the Professional]

It's just a real shame that we finally got a kickass Raph/Leo battle in a Turtles movie, yet it was poorly motivated.

 

[Leon the Professional]

It's actually laughable how Leo himself is basically a vigilante, yet he reacts with such disdain toward the Nigh****cher.

 

[Shadow]

That's Leo's Character flaw. He looks down on what his brother was doing because he thinks him to be irrational at times and thinks himself to be above that.

The other part of that character flaw is that Leo thinks that his actions were honorable, while Raph (NW) was just smashing people up for no good reason. Leo's arrogant.

Leo and Raph are opposites in Leo's mind so it is probably a knee jerk reaction for him to see the things Raph does as irrational and hot headed and things he does as honorable and purposeful. Even though he didn't know Raph was NW at first.....this was a guy just like his brother in his mind I bet.

 

[ninjaspyder13]

It's just a real shame that we finally got a kickass Raph/Leo battle in a Turtles movie, yet it was poorly motivated.

Actually, like Shadow mentioned, it wasn't poorly motivated. It was poorly explained -- in a way similar to Kevin's normal style of speaking. He assumes that we're following the logic of his ideas -- and that shows in TMNT as well. There isn't enough reinforcement to make the reason for the conflict clear in the movie (especially to those who are not already aware of this more comic-based Leo and Raph.) It helps if you already know the backstory of the characters and can infer what did or likely took place. Problem was, too much gets left up to the imagination. He needed to spell it out by showing us more scenes that show how aware the audience needs to be of the hypocrisy and the fact that both characters were being blind in their own way.

 

[ScottishFogg]

i just think it's really funny how much of this very clean conversation is being censored. apparently, there's a very dirty word right in the middle of Raphael's alter ego, "Nigh****cher" that SHH! is recognizing, but not seeing that's it's just part of a bigger word.

 

[Leonardo Mystic]

In a word; no. And I'll explain why with my opinion.

Most of us tend to overlook what Leo bears on his shoulders everyday as leader and big brother. He is responsible for his family, and often he takes the blame for anything that goes wrong. Splinter presses more weight onto him by expecting everything out of him, to be this or to be that. Where do you think his perfectionism partly stems from? No one is hardest on him when he fails than himself. I know. I've grown up and gone through the same.

Leo didn't like the Night-watcher for the tactics he used, and perhaps too he felt a resentment because he walked the very same path at one time. He wasn't proud of it. He had no reason to be. Confronting the Night-watcher, which turned out to be his own brother, was I think in his mind he was only trying to turn him around before it was too late, and something really bad happened.

When he found out it was really Raph, that's when his whole attitude changed. He couldn't believe his brother would endanger his life like that and even those of his brothers. Yes, they are vigilantes in a sense, but they don't go purposely announcing themselves to the world as Raph was doing as Night-watcher. That's why Leo went off on a tangent. Raph was being very public about it, and he wasn't seemed to be thinking of the consequences for their family should he get captured or killed.

Leo's far from arrogant, although he does have a tendency to let it show every once in a while, especially if he's frustrated as he was with Raph, or he's got a lot of pressure on him. What Leo is is that he's often very confident of himself. Confidence and arrogance are two different animals, and while they are usually confused, they shouldn't be because they aren't the same.

I know arrogance; I've worked and still work with arrogant people. They continously boast of their abilities to others, and how they can do this and that, and think they're better than everyone else. They usually talk to you like you're the lowest of the low, and think you're dumb as dirt. And when they get into trouble, they think it's everyone else's fault but their own.

A former manager, fired because of his own doing, was like this. He was there for almost six months, and he still couldn't do his job properly despite what he'd been shown over and over again repeatedly. Did he ever stop to think that perhaps it was his own fault he couldn't? No, because he thought his inability to do his job right was everyone else's fault. He thought he knew it all.

In addition, he was always causing trouble in some fashion, and most of the entire staff of that store did not like him one bit. Even the owner, but the only reason he was still around for that long was because the owner's daughter was friends with his family. Finally he was fired when he got caught for stealing food.

My point is Leo is none of these things; he'd never do such. He's not that kind of person. He strives hard to maintain the standards he sets upon himself and those of his sensei's, but he's rarely boastful of it. His role is sometimes very stressful, and it can be a real drag. I bet that he wishes at times he didn't have all that responsibility.

 

[Zombie_samurai]

i just think it's really funny how much of this very clean conversation is being censored. apparently, there's a very dirty word right in the middle of Raphael's alter ego, "Nigh****cher" that SHH! is recognizing, but not seeing that's it's just part of a bigger word.

LOL So thats why Nigh****cher is getting censored

 

[LostSon88]

Perhaps its in the way they go about it?

Like, Superman and Batman...in a way, they're BOTH vigilantes in doing what they do, just different in their approach? Like in the STAS when they first met, Superman at first was against Batman, feeling that he's too much of a loose cannon...it wasn't until he got to know him that he realized that Bats wasn't 'crazy' as he had assumed. Perhaps, Leo felt the same way about the Nigh****cher?

While Leo (I assume) is in complete control of himself while fighting and patrolling the amazon...Raph has a tendency to let his emotions get the better of him almost every time and as a result is at risk of stepping across that invisible line. Which basically was the point of the fight.

That is why Leo is against the Nigh****cher...his methods, in Leo's mind, are just far too extreme.

 

[Spidey]

I'm sure the writers and producers of this movie appreciate us trying to make sense of their mistakes, but I bet this whole hypocritical morale issue was just a plothole goof-up in the script.

And yet...it doesn't detract from the film's quality even one iota, in my opinion. Hm, weird.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Great fight scene though.

 

[Winking Samurai]

At first I couldn't understand why the middle four letters of "Nightw.atcher" were in asterisks. Then I realized what the spelled out, and got a good laugh out of it.

The moderators have dirtier minds than I do.

 

[3dman27]

night watcher
nope i didn't see anything censored

 

[ReallyCoolGuy]

Keep in mind in the beginning of the movie... Leo was not following instructions either (which, of course, has already been pointed out). But once he returned I believe that his "leadership" instinct came back to him and he was just trying to remedy all the problems within the family, including his own. So, I don't see that as hypocrisy

...but the question is, if Splinter forbade them to fight unless all four were a team... why did he go after the Nightwatcher alone (assuming he didn't know it was Raph)?

...of course, the easy explanation is that Splinter sent him after his brother knowing of Raphael's moonlighting activities... which I suspected throughout the movie and was hinted at toward the end but was never implicitly stated.