LEONARDO vs. RAPHAEL

[Mr Jide]

jesus, that's like more mature and realistic dialogue than i've seen from the about 95% of superhero movies to date...

how can any x-men fan watch that and be happy with the cyclops wolverine relationship shown on the big screen.

so so so so so so so mature...

oh and raph definitely won the fight.

however there are other factors to include..

i doubt leo was going all out although he certainly was not holding his blows

raph's armour is definitely going to limit his movement so he was probably doing the best he could do anyway..

i doubt leo really wanted to hurt his bro



i really wished that they had continued without weapons for a while and that raph had completely lost it and ended up smahing up leo a lil

also the fact that raph was the aggressor for the majority of the battle also plays a part, had he used tactics i think the outcome would be different

all in all, raph one the fight, leo's brace faced actions taught raph and lesson but by no means is this an indication of who would be better in a true one-on-one situation.

 

[ryan dube]

The only reason why Leo did not have the upper hand in the second match is simply because he now knew his opponent was Raph, when he was dealing with the Night watcher, he had no problems letting him make his own mistakes and then capitalizing on them (ie uppercut).

Knowing that he was up against Raph, Leo used restraint, whereas Raph did not, he let his emotions get the better of him, thus realizing his fault when he broke the katanas.

If Leo had not knocked Raphs helmet off, concealing his identity still, he would have handed Raph his shell...

 

[November Rain]

Huh? Luke just beat the hell out of Darth relentlessly as Darth was overwhelmed. That's not what happened with Raph and Leo. They were at a standstill and Raph did the unthinkable by shattering his brother's weapons. It wasn't a clear cut victory... it was more of a dude going way too far in a fight with his brother. That was the lesson. I might get into scraps with my brothers but I'm not going to have blood on my mind and knock them to the ground with a knife in their face. If that was my intention, I'd have no problem beating them because they'd be so damn confused and bewildered abotu why their brother is trying so hard... like Leo was.

luke beat vader in a anger fueled rage, just like raph beat leo

just like luke was close to killing his own pop, raph was close to killing his own bro

having your hand cut off and being defenseless like vader was is the same sense of overwhelming that leo had when his weapons were broken and he was taken down.

the victory is clear cut. however it isn't a proper representation of a fair fight between the two.

yeah sure, leo may be better but he lost this fight, the scene isn't a reflection on any of the character's skills in comparison to one another rather than a metaphor about their relationship with one another. THAT's why raph's victory is empty and he leaves since he really hasn't proved any of his points.

in winning the physical confrontation he loses the mental one.

thats the point of the whole scene.

 

[November Rain]

The only reason why Leo did not have the upper hand in the second match is simply because he now knew his opponent was Raph, when he was dealing with the Night watcher, he had no problems letting him make his own mistakes and then capitalizing on them (ie uppercut).

Knowing that he was up against Raph, Leo used restraint, whereas Raph did not, he let his emotions get the better of him, thus realizing his fault when he broke the katanas.

If Leo had not knocked Raphs helmet off, concealing his identity still, he would have handed Raph his shell...

oh please, i could easily make a counter claim as to the visibility restrictions of the night watcher helmet (AND COSTUME) which held raph back until it was revealed at the end.

why is everyone making excuses for leonardo's defeat?

 

[Ultra-Spidey]

......just to get technical and state the obvious, Raph beats Leo.....in the end and "final round", if you will. But I must also mention that Leo is CLEARY holding back while fight his brother. How, one might ask???

Someone mentioned it earlier, but didn't anyone see the quick shot during the "lock-up" where Leo purposely slides his katana blades outward while they are locked in Raph's sais. Didn't anyone care to even think why that quick shot is even showed to us???

Just think about that quick little "shot" and it shows that Leo wasn't intent on hurting Raph, while he is balls to the walls angry going all out and doing whatever it takes to win the fight, including hurting his own brother. Which Raph finally realizes when he so-called "wins".

 

[ryan dube]

oh please, i could easily make a counter claim as to the visibility restrictions of the night watcher helmet (AND COSTUME) which held raph back until it was revealed at the end.

why is everyone making excuses for leonardo's defeat?

but that is such a weak point, if raph's costume was so restrictive as you put it, then how did he manage to make his alterpersona so formidable in battle? That is like arguing that Leo could have fought better if he was wearing a gee instead of fighting while he is naked...

 

[ninjaspyder13]

but that is such a weak point, if raph's costume was so restrictive as you put it, then how did he manage to make his alterpersona so formidable in battle? That is like arguing that Leo could have fought better if he was wearing a gee instead of fighting while he is naked...

 

[larryfilmmaker]

...
Someone mentioned it earlier, but didn't anyone see the quick shot during the "lock-up" where Leo purposely slides his katana blades outward while they are locked in Raph's sais. Didn't anyone care to even think why that quick shot is even showed to us???
".

I have tried so hard to figure out that shot. Is it Leo turning his blades away so that he doesn't hurt Raph? We're all trying to figure that one out.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

luke beat vader in a anger fueled rage, just like raph beat leo

.

I don't think anybody is having a hard time understanding the point or message of the scene. What I was saying is that the WAY Luke decapitated Vader was much more of a "victory" than the way Raph did it to Leo. In Star Wars, it happened in the heat of battle and Luke was clearly the stronger when he gave in to the dark side. In TMNT, it didn't happen in battle, it happened in a stand still between brothers and Raphael did the unthinkable. He didn't outmatch Leo, breaking his swords in the process. He snapped them when they were face to face, a huge insult. Yes, Leo and Vader were both decapitated. Still, it's much more debatable that Leo didn't lose a fair fight than it is that Vader didn't. Nobody's making excuses for Leo's losing... we're analyzing a scene that was obviously much deeper than a simple "red beats blue".

 

[larryfilmmaker]

but that is such a weak point, if raph's costume was so restrictive as you put it, then how did he manage to make his alterpersona so formidable in battle? That is like arguing that Leo could have fought better if he was wearing a gee instead of fighting while he is naked...

I don't think that Raph's suit was shown to restrict him at all. He still kicked ass and had no problem seeing anything. His senses were still in tact, he hit a guy behind him without looking and he was running, jumping, and climbing ladders while wearing the suit. The helmet is what makes it look heavy.

 

[AssMan]

The only thing that bothered me a little about this was that Leo could not figure out that Raph was the Night Watcher. At first look Casey easily figured it out that Raph was the Night Watcher just by the shape of his body as Casey said. Leo was told about Raph never being seen at night & I do think Leo should have been able to figure out before they went face to face that Raph was the Night Watcher. Raph himself was surprised that Leo did not figure out that Raph was the Night Watcher when Casey easily did.

 

[ninjaspyder13]

The only thing that bothered me a little about this was that Leo could not even figure out that Raph was the Nigh****cher. At first look Casey figured out easy that Raph was the Nigh****cher jus by the shape of its body. Leo was told about Raph never been seen at night & I do think Leo should have figured it out before they went face to face that Raph was the Nigh****cher. Raph himself was surprised that Leo did not figure out that Raph was the Night Watcher when Casey easily did.

Simple: Leo did not know his brother as well as he thought. (He learns this by the end of the fight). Casey and Raph are close friends who understand each other's personalities. Casey probably also sensed that vigilantism was also the sort of thing Raph would do -- since Casey started it, anyway.

 

[November Rain]

but that is such a weak point, if raph's costume was so restrictive as you put it, then how did he manage to make his alterpersona so formidable in battle? That is like arguing that Leo could have fought better if he was wearing a gee instead of fighting while he is naked...

costumes, especially ones with a form of body armour are always going to be restrictive in combat, especially against someone who is just as capable of combat as you are who doesn't have it on.

especially the helmet's visor which one clearly sees limits raph's range of vision through his eyes and could be the reason why raph has a hard time dealing with leo's movements in their unarmed combat duel. notice leo hides underneath raph for the uppercut because his helmet has low no natural visibility below the horizontal.


your argument is the exact opposite to what i'm saying.

 

[ryan dube]

^that is why my arguement is more right!

These guys are ninjas right? WTF do they need to rely on vision for? They should be able to fight each other blind folded...

 

[November Rain]

oh yes because all ninjas can fight blindfolded...

especially in the night on a slippery rooftop with the sound of pooring rain hindering your hearing

 

[ryan dube]

yep, they have to adjust to their environments...

 

[terry78]

Raphael is a ninja, but he learned a lot of his fighting through street brawl type stuff. He learned Splinter's lessons, but he likes to go his own route, as you can see. Just because my parents taught me things doesn't mean I always do it.

 

[ryan dube]

oh ok, I thought I went to the movies to watch TMNT...Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, guess what I got was Teenage Mutant Notdoingwhatsplintertaughtus Turtles...


I see it all the more clearly now

 

[Parker]

Raph does what he's taught, just not what he's told.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

oh ok, I thought I went to the movies to watch TMNT...Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, guess what I got was Teenage Mutant Notdoingwhatsplintertaughtus Turtles...


I see it all the more clearly now

Yeah I was pretty irritated with how even Donny and Mike blatantly ignored Splinter and Leo's orders. Hopefully in the next movie they're a TEAM again.

 

[Mr Jide]

I'm actually dissapointed with Leo. He went out to train for over a year and there's nothing he did that was amazingly spectacular, they all seemed to fight the same. I would have expected Leo to defeat Raph rather easily but it's as if his newly acquired training at least combat-wise didn't even pay off.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I'm actually dissapointed with Leo. He went out to train for over a year and there's nothing he did that was amazingly spectacular, they all seemed to fight the same. I would have expected Leo to defeat Raph rather easily but it's as if his newly acquired training at least combat-wise didn't even pay off.

I was surprised Leo didn't just humiliate the crap out of Raph. I mean, when he was fighting the Nigh****cher he seriously just made him look like nothing. People say the mask limited vision or whatever but that's dumb, look at the mask... it has an eye piece that goes around the sides too. I mean, I understand that Raphael's heart was in the right place and that he was working hard and everything but really, why would Leo's being a "master" according to Raph and being "much stronger" according to Splinter not completely destroy Raph? Again, I really enjoy the Raphael point of view but I'm very disappointed with the writer's obsession with making the "bad boy" just as tough as the guy who's dedicated his life to getting better. It goes against everything being a ninja and having discipline and honor stand for to have Raph lay Leo out... so at least it was done during a stand still and not during an actual fight. I agree with an earlier post that this is the only story involving ninja codes and training that makes rage and blind strength equal to or greater than discipline and training. It's the one piece of the puzzle that just doesn't seem to fit if you look at the film without having a favorite turtle.

 

[Assassin]

its prob in my top ten all time fav fight scenes in a movie.

 

[November Rain]

I'm actually dissapointed with Leo. He went out to train for over a year and there's nothing he did that was amazingly spectacular, they all seemed to fight the same. I would have expected Leo to defeat Raph rather easily but it's as if his newly acquired training at least combat-wise didn't even pay off.

maybe he simply just wasn't that good enough.

 

[November Rain]

I was surprised Leo didn't just humiliate the crap out of Raph. I mean, when he was fighting the Nigh****cher he seriously just made him look like nothing. People say the mask limited vision or whatever but that's dumb, look at the mask... it has an eye piece that goes around the sides too. I mean, I understand that Raphael's heart was in the right place and that he was working hard and everything but really, why would Leo's being a "master" according to Raph and being "much stronger" according to Splinter not completely destroy Raph? Again, I really enjoy the Raphael point of view but I'm very disappointed with the writer's obsession with making the "bad boy" just as tough as the guy who's dedicated his life to getting better. It goes against everything being a ninja and having discipline and honor stand for to have Raph lay Leo out... so at least it was done during a stand still and not during an actual fight. I agree with an earlier post that this is the only story involving ninja codes and training that makes rage and blind strength equal to or greater than discipline and training. It's the one piece of the puzzle that just doesn't seem to fit if you look at the film without having a favorite turtle.

ok, it's comments like this that quite annoy me because you can clearly see the obstructions to the view if you see the clip, especially the limited vision towards the bottom (which lead to the uppercut beforehand).

We also know that Raph gets easily distracted when people are annoying him while bouting which was exactly what leo was doing, notice how when leo stops the taunts, raph's fighting with his sais are much better improved.

if raph had started with his sais instead of those chains and not allowed himself to get wound up in the first place, it may have turned out differently