LEONARDO vs. RAPHAEL

[ryan dube]

quit making excuses for Raph, he is a big boy and a ninja to boot, he should be able to take care of himself. Like I said earlier, his vision restricting helmet had no baring on the fight at all, he should have been able to fight Leo blindfolded...

 

[Neptune]

......just to get technical and state the obvious, Raph beats Leo.....in the end and "final round", if you will. But I must also mention that Leo is CLEARY holding back while fight his brother. How, one might ask???

Someone mentioned it earlier, but didn't anyone see the quick shot during the "lock-up" where Leo purposely slides his katana blades outward while they are locked in Raph's sais. Didn't anyone care to even think why that quick shot is even showed to us???

Just think about that quick little "shot" and it shows that Leo wasn't intent on hurting Raph, while he is balls to the walls angry going all out and doing whatever it takes to win the fight, including hurting his own brother. Which Raph finally realizes when he so-called "wins".

I disagree. I don't think Leo was holding back. He told Raph he was better than him. Why would he hold back if he wanted to show Raph once and for all that he is better than him?

I think Leo underestimated Raph.

 

[November Rain]

well leo did hold back for the first raph attack, where you see him blocking for the majority of their hits, then after raph's second lunge, leo then becomes the aggressor in the bout which forces raph into the block that gets their weapons locked in the first place.

 

[November Rain]

quit making excuses for Raph, he is a big boy and a ninja to boot, he should be able to take care of himself. Like I said earlier, his vision restricting helmet had no baring on the fight at all, he should have been able to fight Leo blindfolded...

ryan, in real life, people can't fight other people blindfolded, especially their potential equals.

i don't know where this whole blindfolded fighting idea you've got comes from.

 

[November Rain]

last post on restrictive view

here is raph's view through his helmet

so if you compare this to a normal view, you can see he's restricted to only the upper torso region of leo and hardly anything above.

now if you notice in the fight, leo jumps out of raph's view once to lose him and then ducks underneath it another time, both while making this reference

'Funny thing about anger, let it consume you and soon enough...you lose sight of everything'

at this stage leo not only is making reference to raph's temper but is also using the low visibility of raph's helmet to first lose him and then hide close in his viscinity

as you can see here, leo is ducking out of view of raph right up close to him, a maneouvre he would be unable to perform if raph wasn't wearing his helmet.

basically leo was on par with raph in hand to hand combat (he got a kick in, raph got a punch) but used raph's low visibility to then stop fighting and start using misdirection to get the uppercut needed to stop put him down. Notice how raph wasn't outskilled in order to get that uppercut, it was as close to a sucker punch as you can get.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

hahaha okay wait, this is getting silly, I'll admit. So Raph can't see downward because of the part of his mask that's in the way, right? Well what about the big ass freakin green beak-hump thing all the turtles have instead of a mouth, wouldn't THAT be in the way. Also, I'm pretty sure Raph looks down at Leo and spots him just before Leo punches him. I don't think he's a robo-****** who can't see up or down, what kind of idiot would make a mask that restricted your movement or vision that much? Besides for Tim Burton...

 

[larryfilmmaker]

this started off as maybe Leo wasn't REALLY defeated in the final bout and now it's slowly turning into maybe Leo never won ANY of the bouts. I really like BOTH turtles but was just plain disappointed in the depiction of rage over discipline, it's just very out of sync with the entire theme and seems to be more of an ideal you'd find in a Frank Miller or Vin Diesel movie than one about 4 ninjas in training.

 

[Fanged-Hunter]

Not to mention Leo finishes his "you lose sight of everything" statement after Raph looks down at him before giving him that uppercut.

But as someone said before, Raph's the "rebel" and the fan favorite "cool" turtle, so just about everyone and their dog is going to say he can beat the snot out of any of the others without even trying.

Brute strength, blind anger, and lack of self control is arguably more powerful than focus, training, and discipline. That's the message I get!

Can't wait for prequel comic #5 so we can see what this year long training was supposed to be. If it was to help Leo learn to be a better leader, his martial arts training wouldn't have necessarily been the focus of that training. I'm just not sure how he undergoes training to be a better leader completely on his own.

Should be interesting to see. Too bad #2 sold out where I am and it's not certain if/when I can get a copy.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

But as someone said before, Raph's the "rebel" and the fan favorite "cool" turtle, so just about everyone and their dog is going to say he can beat the snot out of any of the others without even trying.

haha like "Batman can beat any superhero!" or "Wolverine's healing makes him immortal!" Yet another anti-hero being shoved down our throats. The thing is, I love all three characters... I just get really disappointed when the anti-heroes or rebels are completely overdone and I think TMNT is a huge example of this. Sure, the original movie had a lot of Raph, but to make up for it he was in a coma for a huge part and the other 3 had their own screen time. In this, it's just Raph talking with Casey, Raph as Nigh****cher, Raph arguing with Leo, Raph and Casey spying on bad guys, Raph going too far against Leo, Raph telling Splinter he knows why Leo is better, Raph leading the team to rescue Leo, jeez way too much. It's totally Wolverine all over again and the mainstream audience will keep it going.

Brute strength, blind anger, and lack of self control is arguably more powerful than focus, training, and discipline. That's the message I get!

EXACTLY. What kind of message is this for people? I know they didn't really make Raph OR Leo school the other one, but still... I kept thinking it was time for Leo to realize Raph is strong and his own man but also it's time for the bully (Raph) to eat his words. He deserved to be humbled and I suppose in a way he was, but not as much as i thought he needed to be. I love Raphael but he needs his ass kicked bad.

 

[Dr. Fate]

haha like "Batman can beat any superhero!" or "Wolverine's healing makes him immortal!" Yet another anti-hero being shoved down our throats. The thing is, I love all three characters... I just get really disappointed when the anti-heroes or rebels are completely overdone and I think TMNT is a huge example of this. Sure, the original movie had a lot of Raph, but to make up for it he was in a coma for a huge part and the other 3 had their own screen time. In this, it's just Raph talking with Casey, Raph as Nigh****cher, Raph arguing with Leo, Raph and Casey spying on bad guys, Raph going too far against Leo, Raph telling Splinter he knows why Leo is better, Raph leading the team to rescue Leo, jeez way too much. It's totally Wolverine all over again and the mainstream audience will keep it going.

Yeah, I hate that.

EXACTLY. What kind of message is this for people? I know they didn't really make Raph OR Leo school the other one, but still... I kept thinking it was time for Leo to realize Raph is strong and his own man but also it's time for the bully (Raph) to eat his words. He deserved to be humbled and I suppose in a way he was, but not as much as i thought he needed to be. I love Raphael but he needs his ass kicked bad.

Well, look at it this way: when you're mad or annoyed with Raph, you can always go back and watch the scene in the first film where he gets the crap kicked out of him by the Foot Clan. If getting your ass handed to you by an army of ninjas doesn't mellow you out, nothing will.

 

[Darkest Knight]

Umm, what are some of you smoking? Raph kicked the living hell out of Leo. Raph learned his lesson through self reflection. SMH @ Leo fans acting like Leo meant to get his ass kicked in order to teach Raph as lesson ... haha

Raph has always been the best fighter of the group. Always. Anyway, that scene rocked, as did the movie.

 

[Darkest Knight]

Well, look at it this way: when you're mad or annoyed with Raph, you can always go back and watch the scene in the first film where he gets the crap kicked out of him by the Foot Clan. If getting your ass handed to you by an army of ninjas doesn't mellow you out, nothing will.

See, some of you don't even get Raph. I love Raph because he has the sack and the heart to take on evil by himself if he has to. No matter how great in numbers. That's a warrior.

I think Leo deserved getting his ass kicked by Raph. He has this sense of self entitlement, and of course him being a corny ass kiss up doesn't help matters. I just wouldn't want someone like that leading me. I think Raph would definetely be the better leader. He's strong with his convictions and his passions.

 

[LostSon88]

See, some of you don't even get Raph. I love Raph because he has the sack and the heart to take on evil by himself if he has to. No matter how great in numbers. That's a warrior.

Who's to say Leo wouldn't do the same? Hell he spent a year defending a village in South America all on his own! AND tried to fight the monsters despite being sedated...

I think Leo deserved getting his ass kicked by Raph. He has this sense of self entitlement, and of course him being a corny ass kiss up doesn't help matters. I just wouldn't want someone like that leading me. I think Raph would definetely be the better leader. He's strong with his convictions and his passions.

He's also reckless and hot headed and with a tendency to go into situations head on without thinking it through, and this is coming from a guy who's been a RAPH FAN since I was 5 years old. Raph lets his passion and emotions control his actions...admirable as a fighter, but not as a leader.

Leo however, has the disipline and skill to keep a level head through tense situations. Yeah he can be smug at times but for the most part he is quite humbled and follows the practices of a TRUE ninja. He is certainly a much more dedicated ninja than Raph. He also has no problem following orders from his superiors (Splinter) and take responsibility for the entire team when he makes a mistake...that is a leader.

Hell, by the end of the movie even Raph understands that.

Raph fights with his heart....Leo with his mind.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Well, to be honest, I think the point is that BOTH of them fight with their hearts and have very good intentions... but Leonardo is more mature and at peace with who he's supposed to be while Raph is the sort of bitter, angry brother. I think both of them can come off as very one dimensional with the "goody two shoes" gimmick or the "one liner spewing bad boy" gimmick but that both turtles are way deeper than that if handled well.

No, "Darkest Knight", it's not as simple as "Leo is a prick and Raph is the man". Raph is just as big of a prick about thinking he's always right as Leo is. THAT'S the irony. He accuses Leo of being smug but what is he? Humble? Yeah, right.

 

[Matt]

Fantastic scene. I tend to favor Leo more than Raph, but I was glad to see Raph win the physical fight. Why?

Well, what would have happened if Leo had won? Surely nothing helpful. Raph would have been humiliated and his resentment toward his brother would have only worsened.

Though I don't think Leo was totally schooled. He seemed to be holding back quite a bit during the fight, as he was only aiming to win. Note how Nightw@tcher barely touched him, but as soon as the helmet came off, the odds evened out...fast. Raphael, I think, was angry enough that his objective was kill, so there was nothing he was holding back from. All he wanted to do was beat Leo into a bloody pulp to prove his point.

Though, I gotta say I loved this depiction of Leonardo as imperfect. Unlike the 1990 movie Leo, he had a backbone. Unlike the 2003 'toon Leo (season 4 aside) he isn't perfect. While being a great, stubborn foil to Raph, Leo even gets upset enough with him during their argument to dare to suggest that he's better than Raph. I don't think it was a geniune sign of arrogance, just something hurtful that he got ticked enough to throw out there (though it could be rooted in truth).

While the subtlety of the acting in the movie overall didn't even touch what Pixar can do, this scene definitely came very close. Especially the wordless bit when Raph realizes what he was just about to do. Excellent, excellent stuff.

This is probably the best analysis of the scene that I've read so far

 

[Fanged-Hunter]

Darkest Knight, I ask you how Raph beat the hell out of Leo? He got a single punch during their initial fight, a kick when Leo realized it was Raph (a sucker kick), and he got a roundhouse when he broke Leo's blades. Three hits out of how many attacks? Leo played with him and never even took him seriously until he realized it was Raph. Even then, Raph never got a real hit on Leo until the final kick that knocked him down. I don't care how big a Raph fan you are (and don't get me wrong, I do love Raph, the whole thing wouldn't be the same without him), you can't say Raph controlled that fight and was on top the whole way through.

Went and saw it for a third time and I watched the fight with this thread particularly in mind. Have to say, there's a few things I saw differently.

First off, let's talk about that glance at Leo's blades. Watching it again, I didn't get any impression that he turned the blades. It just seemed to be showing that the weapons were locked and Leo was pushing back as much as Raph was. Raph's brute force and Leo's unwillingness to back down caused them to break.

As for the vision from the helmet, when Leo avoided the attack during his "The thing about anger" lines, he jumped behind Raph and said "You lose sight of everything" while still standing up. Raph did a spinning kick, which Leo ducked. When Raph looked down, that's when he gave him the uppercut. I can't really give Raph any credit due to his restricted helmet. He knew Leo was behind him when he gave that kick and looked around, then down before the punch. Not a sucker punch, though there wasn't much time to react. (Plus, a ninja should be making use of any advantage he can).

Finally, everyone who's saying Leo was being cocky or an ass should really step back and get off their "Raph is cool and unflawed" kick.

"I hope he never comes back."
"Hey, Leo's back. Better say hello before he leaves again."
"Try to keep up, jungle boy."
"Are you still here? Go back to your jungle."

The only part I liked (and by liked, I mean something I could really identify with saying if it were me) of Raph's spouting off on Leo was "You're going to quote me from a rulebook you ain't been following for over a year?" But then again, going against Leo on this "don't fight" was indeed going against Splinter's direct commands. Leo, as far as we know, was never told by Splinter to come home.

As for the fight, Leo proved every word he said was true and therefore won by making his point. When he says he's better than Raph, Raphael takes it to mean better at fighting. Not at all. Leo is only referring to better leadership; calm, rational, decisive, rather than Raph's hot headed rebelious attitude. The exact line is:
Raph: I'm better off calling my own shots.
Leo: You're not ready! You're impatient, you're hot headed, and most importantly...I'm better than you.

Raph's not ready to call the shots. Leo never really says "I can kick your butt" but Raph jumps to fighting as the solution. By beating back Leo, breaking his blades, he realizes that Leo was right about his hot head attitude.

I do still feel a little disappointed that the disciplined martial arts student (Leo is only called a master by Raph in one of his snarky remarks, so I consider Leo still a student) is beaten by the emotion driven street brawler (though Raph has martial arts training, of course, he is a down and dirty nitty gritty rough house fighter. That's why he's loved, after all).

But I give the fight to Leo in proving his point, Raph in overpowering his brother's weapons. The shock of such an act gave Raph an opening and he took advantage of it (as I've said, a ninja should use any opening they get).

Just because Leo follows the samurai code of bushido doesn't mean the other ninja brothers have to, after all.

This debate will likely go on with no clear winners. Leo fans will give the win to Leo based on the principle he proved right while Raph fans will give the win to Raphael based on pinning Leo with a sai by his head.

Now then....who wants to see a Leo vs. Raph vs. Don vs. Mike all-out training match in the sequel with Splinter overseeing?

EDIT ADDITION: Oh, and the best Raph/Leo verbal trade still comes from the 2003 series' first episode...
Raph: Teacher's pet.
Leo: Ninja drop-out.

 

[Kessy Wessy]

First off...i have to say "Fanged Hunter" knows his stuff!i i agree with him almost completely on most of his points.As for Leo vs Raph...it was a very good scene and alot of opinions can be made throughout.I admit that i am a Leo fan but Raph is my second favorite,so i try to make my opinions as non-biased as possible.

The Fight: Leo vs Night watcher...Leo clearly wins.yes Raph has armor,a helmet and different weopons.does the armor slow him down? maybe!?! as for the helmet and restriction of vision...nonsense.if it really restricted his vision,that's his fault for choosing a crappy helmet.my point about that is...how does he expect to fight crime by himself with restricted vision.when last i checked Mikey was the dumb one(sorry Mikey and his fans...just making a point).my point is he (Raph) can see well enough with it.as for weapons...the chain and ball crap are not his primary weapons but to say he is unfamiliar with them is just wrong.he didn't pick those weapons up from a dumpster and started fighting u know!!!be realistic.

The Fight 2: Leo vs Raph...Raph wins.here's why : first off...the little part before the actual fight showing Leo's sword tilting a little dosen't mean he is holding back.although Leo probably held back (and that i do believe),that clip alone doesn't prove that in any way.does he have a reversed edged sword like "Kenshin"?...who knows!!!to me,it's just a clip showing they are ready to fight.the fight was good and one has to comb through it (probably more than once)to get everything.skipping to the near end of the fight right before they lock weapons...what happened?i'll tell u!in my opinion...Leo showed Raph he could have won!after Leos roundhouse that sent Raph to the wall,a quick strike above the sholder with the katana missing completly.did Leo hold back?...yes!if he didn't hold back the entire fight...then he held back in this scene.looking at that scene again...i can say Raph could make little or no movement to dodge the thrust...if it was a direct thrust aiming to kill,we will have three heroes in a half-shell (in my opinion this paricular cut was underplayed.you should not have to replay to see what Leo did because everyone saw what Raph did at the end.but it's all good!).with that said,Raph didn't give up.they locked weapons and then the moment of truth.one must consider,that out of all the turtles' weapons,Raph's sai is the best suited to counter Leo's katana.the reason Raph won is because he broke his big brother's katana(basically proving the fight was over).the stab to the ground just missing Leo's head is to prove he could have took him out as well.it was then he realized how far he had gone.bottom line Raph ended an almost even fight by breaking Leo's katana.Raph won!!

Who won overall?: Leo...here's why!!!after the fights i can safely say they both achieved something they wanted to do!Leo achieved his goal of confronting and defeating the Night Watcher.Raph achieved his goal of defeating Leo in one on one combat(something he wanted to do ever since he was a "pre-school mutant ninja turtle").now for the Tie-break!!!Leo won because he achieved his goal(as well as master Splinter's goal) of getting Raph back on the team.eventhough he lost a fight to achieve this goal...he still achieved it.Leo is the winner!

For all the Leo fans (like myself) who thought he was the best fighting turtle by far and no other tuurtle could have compared are wrong.there is someone who could compare...and it's Raph.in my opinon Leo is better in hand to hand combat than Raph...but could Ralph be better with his weapon than Leo...maybe?(that's scary).but i know in my heart Leo is still better (at least for now....who knows what other movies and cartoons might show you!).pure fighting skill maybe even right now in my opinion...but Leo's poise,experience and just knowing what to do with a calm head will put him over the edge with hot head Raph!

Leo's No. 1.....but not by far!!!

 

[blksuperman2]

I thought this was an awesome scene. I don't know, I was never a fan of Raphael ever since the pilot mini-series in the '80s, that said I always thought that he was the best fighter in the group. This scene showed that even though Leo was quicker (especially because Raph had a huge bulky suit on) and more skilled, that Raph was just a more brute force low down fighter. This is the same like most heated vs topics such as Bats vs Supes. Everyone's going to see things differently.

 

[Buslady]

quit making excuses for Raph, he is a big boy and a ninja to boot, he should be able to take care of himself. Like I said earlier, his vision restricting helmet had no baring on the fight at all, he should have been able to fight Leo blindfolded...

maybe so but his helmet may have also reduced his hearing senses as well as obstructing his periferal vision.

 

[Fanged-Hunter]

maybe so but his helmet may have also reduced his hearing senses as well as obstructing his periferal vision.

But he pinpointed Leo's position based on his voice when big bro was behind him. Leo just ducked the kick.

Don't downplay Raph. The suit does NOT have any bearing on the guy's abilities. To say it does is actually an insult to Raphael's abilities. The guy's a top notch fighter even while wearing the big metal turtle suit.

 

[TEDDY]

I look at it this way:

It wasn't Leo teaching Ralph a lesson. Despite how obvious it was, it appeared Leo didn't know Ralph was the Night Stalker.

The way I interpreted it, Leo and Ralph are basically even with their chosen weapons, but that won't be enough for the Ralph or Leo fans, will it.

Ok, here goes: at the heat of the tussle, Leo and Ralph are even. Weapons locked, neither one budging. But Leo gets a look on his face which I interpret as "What am I doing? This is my brother? I can't hurt him!" Leo is the more cool headed of the two. He loves his brothers so much and has proven that he is more than willing to die to protect them.

Ralph, however, is a hot head. Between: his natural adrenaline rush from fighting, the disagreements with Leo, and the feeling of being abandon by his brother when the family need him most; Ralph is thinking with his fists rather than his head.

So he powers through the lock, breaking Leo's sword, and almost almost kills Leo in a rage, realizing just in time what he was doing.

They both look at each other as if they both realize what Ralph could have done if he let his anger take control. Then Ralph runs off, on verge of tears realizing the mistake he could have (and almost did make).

So lets round this up!

Strongest: Ralph

Better fighter: Leo

Skills: Even

They are both pretty much the same. (Which explains why they don't get along. After all, opposites attract.) But Leo is better fit to be leader.

 

[ninjaspyder13]

I look at it this way:

It wasn't Leo teaching Ralph a lesson. Despite how obvious it was, it appeared Leo didn't know Ralph was the Night Stalker.

The way I interpreted it, Leo and Ralph are basically even with their chosen weapons, but that won't be enough for the Ralph or Leo fans, will it.

Ok, here goes: at the heat of the tussle, Leo and Ralph are even. Weapons locked, neither one budging. But Leo gets a look on his face which I interpret as "What am I doing? This is my brother? I can't hurt him!" Leo is the more cool headed of the two. He loves his brothers so much and has proven that he is more than willing to die to protect them.

Ralph, however, is a hot head. Between: his natural adrenaline rush from fighting, the disagreements with Leo, and the feeling of being abandon by his brother when the family need him most; Ralph is thinking with his fists rather than his head.

So he powers through the lock, breaking Leo's sword, and almost almost kills Leo in a rage, realizing just in time what he was doing.

They both look at each other as if they both realize what Ralph could have done if he let his anger take control. Then Ralph runs off, on verge of tears realizing the mistake he could have (and almost did make).

So lets round this up!

Strongest: Ralph

Better fighter: Leo

Skills: Even

They are both pretty much the same. (Which explains why they don't get along. After all, opposites attract.) But Leo is better fit to be leader.

....

First of all, it's RAPH (pronounced raf, as in cRAFt).

Second, it's Nightwatcher, which is one word despite the antics of some hyperactive censors on this forum.

Third, I agree with you.

 

[Spidey]

I look at it this way:

It wasn't Leo teaching Ralph a lesson. Despite how obvious it was, it appeared Leo didn't know Ralph was the Night Stalker.

The way I interpreted it, Leo and Ralph are basically even with their chosen weapons, but that won't be enough for the Ralph or Leo fans, will it.

Ok, here goes: at the heat of the tussle, Leo and Ralph are even. Weapons locked, neither one budging. But Leo gets a look on his face which I interpret as "What am I doing? This is my brother? I can't hurt him!" Leo is the more cool headed of the two. He loves his brothers so much and has proven that he is more than willing to die to protect them.

Ralph, however, is a hot head. Between: his natural adrenaline rush from fighting, the disagreements with Leo, and the feeling of being abandon by his brother when the family need him most; Ralph is thinking with his fists rather than his head.

So he powers through the lock, breaking Leo's sword, and almost almost kills Leo in a rage, realizing just in time what he was doing.

They both look at each other as if they both realize what Ralph could have done if he let his anger take control. Then Ralph runs off, on verge of tears realizing the mistake he could have (and almost did make).

So lets round this up!

Strongest: Ralph

Better fighter: Leo

Skills: Even

They are both pretty much the same. (Which explains why they don't get along. After all, opposites attract.) But Leo is better fit to be leader.

Sure, why not.

 

[Fanged-Hunter]

In the movie comic adaptation, Raph pins Leo with the sai pointed square at Leo's face. They put this shot for Leo to say "Don't do this, Raph." and then Raph runs off, saying "What am I doing? I almost killed Leo! I was gonna!"

He stops, thinking he could have really hurt Leo, and that's why he goes back and sees Leo captured, not hearing Leo scream.

All in all, I don't recommend the comic adaptation. The art is fairly low quality and a lot of panels are just a copy of a previous panel with a slight addition or removal. It's really a shame because I felt the Raph, Leo, and April prequel comics were really well done (Raph's was so-so, more of an explanation of where the Night.watcher suit came from, but a really cool stylized art (the long bandana strands at the back in certain shots is awesome. I really like Leo's because it showed his year-long journey, explained why he didn't want to go back to the city, and intertwined a bit with the movie, as well as had the same really good art that Raph's did. April's is so-so as well, but still good artwork).

Donatello's was kinda weird with him discovering one of the monsters, though it gives a new outlook on the 13 monsters. The art wasn't too good in his either, I didn't think.

Haven't gotten Michaelangelo's just yet.

 

[crd1682]

Actually, the Leo vs. Raph fight was nearly exactly like the Vader vs. Luke fight. There's no way Luke would have won against Vader if Vader had actually TRIED to beat him. He lacked the fighting experience AND Anakin had more control over the force. But he didn't want to kill his son, despite his attitude.

And there's no way Raph would have beaten Leo if Leo was actually trying to hurt Raph. Leo could have killed him easily if he wanted to, but it's not in him. I'll admit that Raph still won in the end though.