LEONARDO vs. RAPHAEL

[larryfilmmaker]

First off, I was totally impressed by this movie. It had a real story, deep themes, individual characters, and a bottom line.

To me though, the absolute best stuff was between Leo and Raph... and EASILY the best scene of the movie was the fight between the two.

SPOILER AHEAD

With no weapons, Leo cleans Raph's clock. With weapons, Raph wins... but does he? When we left the theater I wasn't sure what exactly had happened. Leonardo turned his swords sideways so that he couldn't hurt Raph, and his face was blank as Raph heaved and grunted with rage. Was this a real one on one fight or was it Leonardo teaching Raphael about his anger? After all, Splinter says "you know what you have to do" and Leo says "yes". Our group was leaving and I asked about the fight and people either said "Raph won" or others said "No, Leo was teaching him a lesson".

Whaddya you guys think? I think that the fight was never really meant to be a physical contest and that it was an awesome clash of personalities that essentially showed Leonardo proving Raphael wrong (Raph confesses to now understanding WHY Leo is the leader afterwards).

I'm interested to hear both sides on this and to me, both characters were awesome, overshadowing Donny and Mikey a little too much even.

 

[Road Warrior]

Ralph lovers will ALWAYS say that Ralph won. They are as hot-headed as he is. lol. Leo was just teaching him a lesson.

 

[ninjaspyder13]

What happened?

Spoiler

Sais are defensive weapons. Raph was holding Leo's swords in a lock -- in the end, his brute strength won and he was able to apply the right "leverage" to break the swords.

And yeah, I did wonder about Raph's reaction after seeing what he'd done. Maybe he got a little disgusted with himself. By breaking Leo's swords (there has been some parallel between weapons and masculine worth) Raph kind of proves that's all he really cared about was beating someone else.

I dunno. I'm glad there was no dialog then... and then how he fled like that,

man... best scene of the film. t: I don't even want to talk it to death, so I'm leaving now before I get drawn in.

Totally seeing this movie again.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

What happened?

Spoiler

Sais are defensive weapons. Raph was holding Leo's swords in a lock -- in the end, his brute strength won and he was able to apply the right "leverage" to break the swords.

And yeah, I did wonder about Raph's reaction after seeing what he'd done. Maybe he got a little disgusted with himself. By breaking Leo's swords (there has been some parallel between weapons and masculine worth) Raph kind of proves that's all he really cared about was beating someone else.

I dunno. I'm glad there was no dialog then... and then how he fled like that,

man... best scene of the film. t: I don't even want to talk it to death, so I'm leaving now before I get drawn in.

Totally seeing this movie again.

I totally agree.

 

[Mr Jide]

No. Raph kicked Leo's ass, period. It's what Raph did next which was the lesson. Critical reflection. Once Leo was on the floor and overpowred, Leo simply left the situation to Raph. Would Raph strike his fallen brother or would he see in himself what's been hindering him all along? Leo was being the sensible one and for that, it paid off but lets not forget that, Raph took Leo down....great fight, great movie.

 

[venom628]

Pity leo didnt win.

 

[ninjaspyder13]

Pity leo didnt win.

What do you mean? Leo was being an arrogant ass, and while he may be a better leader/more skilled, Raph just happens to be stronger. I think either one of them could have won -- it's just that they got into that weapons lock, which brought the fight down to strength alone. If that hadn't happened, Leo's skill may have beaten Raph's... although, I'd have to watch the scene again to be sure.

Eh heheh... Yeah... I came back. t: But I'm leaving now. Honest!

 

[Matt]

Raph didn't win at all. He may have broken Leo's Kitanas and pinned him...but Leo had the upperhand as was proven by Raph's flight afterwards.

 

[DaneShobe]

What, do you think Raph ran because he was scared? His "flight" afterwards proved nothing of the sort. Raph definitely won, and I would've been disgusted if he hadn't. Leo was being way too smug and cocky.

 

[Buslady]

Raph's always been physically stronger than the others, Raph won the fight. He is fast despite what others say about him, Leo's fast too, but Raph's got the weaponry to trap and break and as close as they were, and as much power he put behind his sai, paired with the anger he seethed towards Leo, he won that fight but he also won in another way...he couldn't believe what he'd just done, and I believe the lesson about anger blinds and you loose focus, etc. clicked in his head, he learned a lesson. Raph really didn't want to hurt Leo, it's proven when he turns and runs after the stone dudes taking him, if he didn't give a care he would have not bothered to attempt a rescue.

Me, being a biased Raph fan, I was on his side with his argument. Was Leo to expect them all to fall in like little soldiers? Feh! Hell no!!

 

[Matt]

What, do you think Raph ran because he was scared? His "flight" afterwards proved nothing of the sort. Raph definitely won, and I would've been disgusted if he hadn't. Leo was being way too smug and cocky.

Leo was being intentionally cocky. As for Raph winning, he may have physically defeated Leo, but Leo beat him mentally.

 

[bsquad]

wow Leo said one messed up thing to Raph and he's an arrogant ass? Umm what about all the horrible things Raph was saying to Leo. Hell he was openly hostile with Leo for no real reason through out the film (well atleast no real reason that he would be willing to elaborate on to anyone but Casey). I'm not saying that Leo was 100% right because he wasn't but be real, who was the one picking fights through the film because Leo wanted to follow Splinter's orders? I understand if your a Raph fan but let's not front like Raph was the angel in all of this just because he's the cool bad boy

 

[XP NACHOS]

I made a reply about this in one of the other threads, I'm going to go ahead and expand on it here.

One thing you have to remember about this fight, is that it is a dramatic setup to the rest of the movie and the way that Leo and Raph make amends. When Leo first saw Raph as the Nigh****cher, and Nigh****cher ran Leo had absolutely no problem in keeping up, and of course did manage to corner him. So in that way the first third of the encounter goes to Leo. After Raph decided to attack Leo as the Nigh****cher, again Leo had very little problem in defeating him here, giving Leo 2/3rds of the fight. When Leo and Raph finally went at it as Leo and Raph, Leo was still holding back, as he would have been calm enough to realize that he didn't really want to hurt Raph, as much defeat him. Whereas Raph, with his temper, and some taunting by Leo, seemed to have lost control of himself and was going all out against Leo, which is evident when Raph broke Leo's swords. So while the fight goes to Raph, Leo was morally superior at this point. So overall I wouldn't say that Raph won the fight because he was the better fighter. And to be perfectly honest, even if Leo would have schooled him 99.99% of the time in a one on one fight Raph was going to win this fight. I say this because this fight was critical to the story between Leo and Raph, and dramatically speaking Raph had to win this fight. It was really the only way for Raph to see what was wrong with his style of fighting and the way he was acting. If Leo had won, what would have been accomplished? Raph might have fallen in line, but I doubt it. Most likely he would have run off again.

 

[terry78]

^I see people keep trying to type Nigh****cher, so I assume the word **** is edited on here now.

 

[XP NACHOS]

yes, it would seem so.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I made a reply about this in one of the other threads, I'm going to go ahead and expand on it here.

One thing you have to remember about this fight, is that it is a dramatic setup to the rest of the movie and the way that Leo and Raph make amends. When Leo first saw Raph as the Nigh****cher, and Nigh****cher ran Leo had absolutely no problem in keeping up, and of course did manage to corner him. So in that way the first third of the encounter goes to Leo. After Raph decided to attack Leo as the Nigh****cher, again Leo had very little problem in defeating him here, giving Leo 2/3rds of the fight. When Leo and Raph finally went at it as Leo and Raph, Leo was still holding back, as he would have been calm enough to realize that he didn't really want to hurt Raph, as much defeat him. Whereas Raph, with his temper, and some taunting by Leo, seemed to have lost control of himself and was going all out against Leo, which is evident when Raph broke Leo's swords. So while the fight goes to Raph, Leo was morally superior at this point. So overall I wouldn't say that Raph won the fight because he was the better fighter. And to be perfectly honest, even if Leo would have schooled him 99.99% of the time in a one on one fight Raph was going to win this fight. I say this because this fight was critical to the story between Leo and Raph, and dramatically speaking Raph had to win this fight. It was really the only way for Raph to see what was wrong with his style of fighting and the way he was acting. If Leo had won, what would have been accomplished? Raph might have fallen in line, but I doubt it. Most likely he would have run off again.

I think you nailed it. Like I said before, if Leo had just beaten him the third time (assuming the chase counts), what lesson would Raph have learned? I'm pretty sure the slow motion view of Leo knocking Raph's head off was meant to establish who the better fighter was. Either way, I love this fight and I don't want to take anything away from either of them.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Leo was being way too smug and cocky.

I hate this crap. One character is the fan favorite "grumpy rebel" and he mocks the **** out of the leader nonstop and when the leader says something back or finally returns the attitude he's the cocky one. How can you even say Leonardo was the cocky one? Did you miss every single one of Raph's lines of dialogue in the entire movie? Did you miss him disobeying direct orders or rushing into fights without thinking? I mean everybody has their favorites but that doesn't mean you ignore their flaws.

 

[Dino Pollard]

I agree, this was the greatest scene in the movie. And even though Raph is my favorite character, I don't think it was simply a matter of him beating Leo -- it was Leo teaching him a lesson.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

no matter who really won, or whether one of them won physically and the other won mentally, doesn't matter. To me, it wasn't just a great scene.. it was one of the best emotional encounters I'd seen in a movie in a LONG LONG LONG time.

The whole time Leo was talking about teamwork, Raph was being a pain in the ass, the other two were slacking... I was thinking "THIS is what an X-Men movie should be... teamwork." Kudos to TMNT for finally going there first. Yes, they definitely built Leo and Raph up to be these gods among the others, but who cares... it fit their personalities and their drives to be the best.

Anybody notice similarities between Leo/Raph and Supes/Bats in Kingdom Come? Raph with the robot suit and telling Leo "you left, I stayed", Raph refusing to fall in line behind the leader upon his return, etc...

 

[The Caped Knight]

I just came back from seeing TMNT, Wow this movie had great a story as well as Powerful Themes such as [Family] [Brotherhood] & most of all [Unity] . The Fight between Leo & Raph was great .

As a Die-hard Hardcore fan of Leo (My number one favorite Turtle period.) In the fight Leo won . [By getting the message across to Raph.]

 

[terry78]

This is what the X-movies should've been, as mentioned above. Cyclops as Leo, Wolverine as Raph, both having massive screentime and depth. The movies should've been Cyclops and Logan's together, but whatever.

 

[D.Rex]

What an amazing fight scene. It was so well done. Great action and a ton of suspense. The whole dynamic of the two of them and their relationship was great and a high point of he movie. I mean that was character depth and conflict that is as good some four star classic movies. it was great. Their relationship reminds me of my relationship with my brother so it held special meaning for me.

 

[Buslady]

wow Leo said one messed up thing to Raph and he's an arrogant ass? Umm what about all the horrible things Raph was saying to Leo. Hell he was openly hostile with Leo for no real reason through out the film (well atleast no real reason that he would be willing to elaborate on to anyone but Casey). I'm not saying that Leo was 100% right because he wasn't but be real, who was the one picking fights through the film because Leo wanted to follow Splinter's orders? I understand if your a Raph fan but let's not front like Raph was the angel in all of this just because he's the cool bad boy

oh he's no angel, believe me I know him well, I study his character. He's a real prick when he's in a bad mood. What they didn't really tell you clearly in the movie is why Raph was pissed off towards Leo.
At least I didn't see it plain, but I know why.

 

[ninjaspyder13]

doublepost...

 

[ninjaspyder13]

Okay... the conclusion I'm drawing up from the insights I've read here is:

Raph won the physical fight. He was stronger than Leonardo and had the katanas in a lock, enabling him to break the sais.

As someone said, the turning point came when Raphael realized that Leo probably hadn't given his all -- he fought Raphael as a brother. But Raph fought Leo with the intensity he would give an enemy. Thereby proving, I think unexpectedly for both, how Leo was "better" than Raph. In other words, the outcome of the fight shows that Leo is more concerned about his family. Raph is much more concerned with proving his superiority, and when he realizes that, he feels sick.

Okay. That's it. I am seriously done analyzing and rewatching this scene. I understand it and have reached what I consider to be a logical, satisfying conclusion.

But this scene is still awesome no matter how many times I see it. This movie has totally rekindled my TMNT fan spirit.t: