LEONARDO vs. RAPHAEL

[Mr Jide]

This is so simple, bias aside, Raph won.

Sure, Leo playfully and confidently dodged nigh****cher's attacks but when it came to Raph vs. Leo, Raph opened up a can of undiluted whoopass. Raph was driven by anger and blind rage, thus winning the fight. However, as he contemplates executing the final blow, he realises his weaknesses and being aware of the situation witha recently clear mind, he runs away because of the shame that befalls him. He loves his brother and is disgusted with himself for being such an ass.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Okay... the conclusion I'm drawing up from the insights I've read here is:

Raph won the physical fight. He was stronger than Leonardo and had the katanas in a lock, enabling him to break the sais.

As someone said, the turning point came when Raphael realized that Leo probably hadn't given his all -- he fought Raphael as a brother. But Raph fought Leo with the intensity he would give an enemy. Thereby proving, I think unexpectedly for both, how Leo was "better" than Raph. In other words, the outcome of the fight shows that Leo is more concerned about his family. Raph is much more concerned with proving his superiority, and when he realizes that, he feels sick.

Okay. That's it. I am seriously done analyzing and rewatching this scene. I understand it and have reached what I consider to be a logical, satisfying conclusion.

But this scene is still awesome no matter how many times I see it. This movie has totally rekindled my TMNT fan spirit.t:

I saw it again with some friends and I don't think Leo really intended to lose the fight. I don't think either was established as a better fighter simply because it came to a stand still and Raph used his sais to break the swords. If they'd had the same weapons who knows what would have happened? I also don't think Leo ever intended to win the fight either. I think it's a brilliant scene that made Raph look physically superior, maybe because he wanted so badly to beat Leo, while Leo is definitely the master and rightful leader who's heart was never in the fight.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

This is so simple, bias aside, Raph won.

Sure, Leo playfully and confidently dodged nigh****cher's attacks but when it came to Raph vs. Leo, Raph opened up a can of undiluted whoopass. Raph was driven by anger and blind rage, thus winning the fight. However, as he contemplates executing the final blow, he realises his weaknesses and being aware of the situation witha recently clear mind, he runs away because of the shame that befalls him. He loves his brother and is disgusted with himself for being such an ass.

All bias aside, was either really established as better fighter? Raph broke Leo's swords with his sais... does that make him the better fighter? I think it was meant to establish that he was trying way too hard to fight or kill his brother.

 

[ninjaspyder13]

I saw it again with some friends and I don't think Leo really intended to lose the fight. I don't think either was established as a better fighter simply because it came to a stand still and Raph used his sais to break the swords. If they'd had the same weapons who knows what would have happened? I also don't think Leo ever intended to win the fight either. I think it's a brilliant scene that made Raph look physically superior, maybe because he wanted so badly to beat Leo, while Leo is definitely the master and rightful leader who's heart was never in the fight.

I didn't say Leo meant to lose the fight -- he just didn't go into the fight with the same bloodlust as Raphael.

All bias aside, was either really established as better fighter? Raph broke Leo's swords with his sais... does that make him the better fighter? I think it was meant to establish that he was trying way too hard to fight or kill his brother.

Exactly. Leo wanted to challenge Raph, not duel him to the death. Raphael loses (MENTALLY) because he nearly succumbs to murderous intent.

 

[DarkKnight182]

Raphael definitely won the fight, and almost did something he would regret, hence the look on his face right before he flees. I don't think Leo was trying to teach Raoh a lesson, but rather trying to prove by fighting him that anger and passion won't win fights alone. In the end, Raphael's rage won out, almost at a great cost. Leo wouldn't hold back against Raph if he knew that Raph was giving his all. Raph won using his sheer strength and by the defensive nature of his weapon. I think it was a fight between brothers, that had been brewing for a long time. I would've loved for the fight to have been a minute or two longer, but I loved every second of what they gave us. It was all I'd been expecting and more. Kudos to Munroe.

 

[Mr Jide]

All bias aside, was either really established as better fighter? Raph broke Leo's swords with his sais... does that make him the better fighter? I think it was meant to establish that he was trying way too hard to fight or kill his brother.

Its got nothing to do with the breaking of weapons or wh's the better fighter. It's establishing who won this particular fight and it was clearly Raph.

 

[Fanged-Hunter]

Well, let's start with this: Favorite turtle: Leo
However, my friend I saw it with holds Raph as his favorite.

I didn't say anything about this fight afterwards, he brought it up and he feels that Leo embarassed Raph in this fight. Personally, I do agree.

First, I don't count the chase. Leo has an advantage of speed with that Night Watcher (should be one word) suit weighing Raph down some.

Second, Raph decides to teach Leo a lesson with the chains. Doesn't work. Leo avoids the attacks with ease and even insults his opponent, but with a purpose. Leo sees this vigilante as having a weakness: his anger.

Third, Raph goes hand to hand, still as Night Watcher. Excellent fight sequence here. But again, Leo wins with an uppercut that lays Raph out.

Now we move to weapons and the reason my Raphael fan friend feels Leo still wins. The blade across the shoulder. Before the lock, Leo takes the katana in a stab that goes above Raph's left shoulder and just to the side of his neck/head. That could have been a killing blow about as easily as Raph's sai next to Leo's head on the ground. For Leo to unquestionably win, he's going to have to use those katana to full effect, and being a bladed weapon, that would probably mean injuring his brother. That wouldn't happen.

Personally, I thought Leo was going to score more light hits, cutting some straps and dis-armoring Raph in the process. Kind of a "this isn't who you are" scenario, but alas no.

As for strength, we can't say that Raphael is the stronger based on this scene either. Leonardo never backed down and never gave an inch. The steel of his katanas broke, not Leo. That means Raph and Leo's force against one another was stronger than the blades, not one turtle was stronger than the other.

If we look at this as a competition match, Leo won the majority of the "rounds." However, there are multiple layers to the scene and in the end, the point Raph took away was that he lost on principle. I really liked that he was actually sounding on the edge of tears as he ran away. He can't be hard as his shell all the time.

That look Leo gives him is, as someone said "Now, what?" Raph realizes that he was close to being ready to kill Leo just because they were opponents and he knows Leo would never come near that point. For that matter, how could Leo possibly beat Raph if Leo's not willing to truly hurt Raph? That's why I think Raph got that horrified/disgusted/disappointed look with himself and ran.

So all in all, Leo wins the fight by making his point. The contest of skill remains in question. Personally, I'm sick of Leo's straight laced appearance from the cartoons and past movies. I got chills when he finally got sick of it and took his shots "You're hot tempered, you're impatient, and most of all....I'm better than you." Finally, it's about time Leo shows some spine instead of constant restraint.

But one thing is for certain, one thing we can all agree on. Leo and Raph are stronger than steel blades.

Turtles 1
Blades 0

 

[larryfilmmaker]

nice post, Fanged. I wasn't saying "Leo won" as much as neither one did. I'm sure if you asked Raph who won that encounter he'd say Leo did. If you asked Leo, he'd say Raph. Both proved their points and like you said, the best quote on this topic so far... "The steel of his katanas broke, not Leo."

 

[LostSon88]

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wD27S58FHw

Shh...

 

[ninjaspyder13]

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wD27S58FHw

Shh...

Don't worry. TMNT has so little marketing power, I'll bet someone could put up the entire freakin movie and no one would take it down.

Sorry, this is one of those rare instances when I really wish people wouldn't pirate the movie. TMNT isn't like POTC where it's gonna be successful no matter what. TMNT has a very slim chance, I think, of making it to 100mil -- considering what's coming this weekend (Meet the Robinsons and Blades of Glory which could completely sap TMNT of its main demographics). I really want a sequel... but that's not gonna happen if the target audience just downloads the film instead of showing some financial support for the movie, which barely got made.

Anyways... as for the Raph vs Leo fight clips, they are great for keeping me occupied in between my trips to the movie!t: I'm going to see TMNT again this weekend.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

One thing I will say is that I was very disappointed with the film from the end of the duel to the credits. Leo, who had finally proven his worthiness to Raph, falls to the background. Raph has ALL the dialogue for the rest of the movie and even narrates the ending. What the?!?! He totally had about 10 times as much screen time as Donny and Mikey put together, and twice as much as Leo. What is going on here? DO NOT RUIN THIS CHARACTER! I beg you! We don't need Raphael and his amazing Turtle friends like the X-Men movies did to us with Wolvie. We don't need another angry Frank Miller character outdoing the other characters because idiots want the rebel to be the hero every time. I'm really worried they are going to over do Raph and his "bad boy fan favorite" image by shoving him down our throats. I hope Leo is the established leader, Raph still has an edge personality wise but finally "falls in line", and that Mikey and Donny get their own stories in the sequel.

 

[DieSmiling]

That scene made the movie for me. The whole thing was awesome, but the confrontation between Leo and Raph (which I was hoping for but figured they'd end up not doing) was top banana.

Awesome, awesome fight.

 

[Dr. Fate]

One thing I will say is that I was very disappointed with the film from the end of the duel to the credits. Leo, who had finally proven his worthiness to Raph, falls to the background. Raph has ALL the dialogue for the rest of the movie and even narrates the ending. What the?!?! He totally had about 10 times as much screen time as Donny and Mikey put together, and twice as much as Leo. What is going on here? DO NOT RUIN THIS CHARACTER! I beg you! We don't need Raphael and his amazing Turtle friends like the X-Men movies did to us with Wolvie. We don't need another angry Frank Miller character outdoing the other characters because idiots want the rebel to be the hero every time. I'm really worried they are going to over do Raph and his "bad boy fan favorite" image by shoving him down our throats. I hope Leo is the established leader, Raph still has an edge personality wise but finally "falls in line", and that Mikey and Donny get their own stories in the sequel.

Kind of like how Wolverine dominates the X-Men films, isn't it?

 

[terry78]

^That's exactly how it is. I remember back in the 80's Michelangelo was the favorite. The poster also features Raphael at the forefront almost. Though I do wish that Cyclops had acted more like Leonardo.

 

[DaneShobe]

Raphael being at the center is nothing new. Revisit the 90's film. Everything of significance in that movie happens because of Raphael. Even Judith Hoag was quoted as saying April "sort of falls in love with Raphael."

 

[hlbimage]

[FONT=&quot]I thought the scene was very emotional on so many levels. It worked because it was about Leo teaching Ralph of the important of being a leader. When Ralph sees himself almost losing it and ran away I admit that I almost cried. I’m 25 and I almost cried at a PG movie. After he ran away and Leo got captured and Ralph was catching up man that was some great acting in the animation that maybe Pixar could never match in all their movies.[/FONT]

 

[November Rain]

jesus, that's like more mature and realistic dialogue than i've seen from the about 95% of superhero movies to date...

how can any x-men fan watch that and be happy with the cyclops wolverine relationship shown on the big screen.

so so so so so so so mature...

oh and raph definitely won the fight.

however there are other factors to include..

i doubt leo was going all out although he certainly was not holding his blows

raph's armour is definitely going to limit his movement so he was probably doing the best he could do anyway..

i doubt leo really wanted to hurt his bro



i really wished that they had continued without weapons for a while and that raph had completely lost it and ended up smahing up leo a lil

also the fact that raph was the aggressor for the majority of the battle also plays a part, had he used tactics i think the outcome would be different

all in all, raph one the fight, leo's brace faced actions taught raph and lesson but by no means is this an indication of who would be better in a true one-on-one situation.

 

[Fanged-Hunter]

I'm still going to throw my card to Leo with the first hit during the chase (through a lighted sign and I loved the sound of Leo's shell down the ladder), the ease of avoiding the chains, the undisputable hand to hand victory, the katana over the shoulder (a twist could have sliced Raph's neck), and then losing because Raph essentially stabbed him through the heart by breaking his blades. With Leo being more of a samurai-ninja following Bushido, that was far more insulting and cruel than anything Raph can vocally say to him. It took me remembering this to appreciate the look of shock when Leo looks at the broken blades before he's round housed into next Tuesday.

Raph's one decisive hit after all that, including what I'd mark a potential kill shot, doesn't really strike me as putting him as winning the fight.

Though TMNT does stand out as the only martial arts-based movie where anger and power tends to be portrayed as overcoming better than discipline and control with Raph's emergence as the "Wolverine" of the series, I think Leo should hands down beat any of his brothers in single combat. When they're outnumbered, however, Raph's going to win the body count every time.

Next movie, I want to see Mike doing some devestation. Nunchukus are pretty scary weapons. And Don needs to shine with some hacking or other needed brain work. t:

 

[November Rain]

saying leo one is like saying vader one against luke at the end of ROTJ

same priciples, vader didn't want to go all out against his own son and hurt him because the emperor wanted him

luke attacked out of anger

he essentially unarmed his assailant

when it came to a deciding blow, he didn't take it because he came to his senses.

yet i bet all those people who say leo won won't say vader beat luke.

 

[The Caped Knight]

yet i bet all those people who say leo won won't say vader beat luke.

You've got one right bub !!!! t:

 

[iceberg325]

I think leo taught him a lesson. Throughout the whole movie he always said your anger jepordizes the team. I think it showed raph how his anger gets the best of him.

IMO its one of the best scenes of the film. I really loved this movie.

 

[Masked Ninja]

Fantastic scene. I tend to favor Leo more than Raph, but I was glad to see Raph win the physical fight. Why?

Well, what would have happened if Leo had won? Surely nothing helpful. Raph would have been humiliated and his resentment toward his brother would have only worsened.

Though I don't think Leo was totally schooled. He seemed to be holding back quite a bit during the fight, as he was only aiming to win. Note how Nightw@tcher barely touched him, but as soon as the helmet came off, the odds evened out...fast. Raphael, I think, was angry enough that his objective was kill, so there was nothing he was holding back from. All he wanted to do was beat Leo into a bloody pulp to prove his point.

Though, I gotta say I loved this depiction of Leonardo as imperfect. Unlike the 1990 movie Leo, he had a backbone. Unlike the 2003 'toon Leo (season 4 aside) he isn't perfect. While being a great, stubborn foil to Raph, Leo even gets upset enough with him during their argument to dare to suggest that he's better than Raph. I don't think it was a geniune sign of arrogance, just something hurtful that he got ticked enough to throw out there (though it could be rooted in truth).

While the subtlety of the acting in the movie overall didn't even touch what Pixar can do, this scene definitely came very close. Especially the wordless bit when Raph realizes what he was just about to do. Excellent, excellent stuff.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

yet i bet all those people who say leo won won't say vader beat luke.

Huh? Luke just beat the hell out of Darth relentlessly as Darth was overwhelmed. That's not what happened with Raph and Leo. They were at a standstill and Raph did the unthinkable by shattering his brother's weapons. It wasn't a clear cut victory... it was more of a dude going way too far in a fight with his brother. That was the lesson. I might get into scraps with my brothers but I'm not going to have blood on my mind and knock them to the ground with a knife in their face. If that was my intention, I'd have no problem beating them because they'd be so damn confused and bewildered abotu why their brother is trying so hard... like Leo was.

 

[DarkKnight182]

The graphics during this scene were jaw-dropping, IMHO. The rain coming down, the exchange of words, and the fighting were top notch. BY FAR the best scene in the movie.

 

[the norminator]

leo beat the crap out of Raph when he thought Raph was someone else. it appears that many here forget that little fact. Great fight!!! i will own this on HD-DVD. i most say that i did have a big smile on my face when Leo uppercut Raph. i'd say it was a tie.