"Make America Great Again!": The TRUMP Thread!!! - Part 5

[katie_girl09]

Oh, he has the best platform. He has all the platforms. He's a builder. He had smart people build the most solid platform you've ever seen. It's a big beautiful platform. It's so great you won't believe it.

 

[katie_girl09]

Melania is more slender and more feminine than Michelle. She is a ex-model for a reason. It's not even a fair comparison. It's a low hanging fruit to rustle people's jimmies.

I love how you use the term "feminine" as though it is somehow universal. As though different cultures and races don't have different views of what femininity is. As if INDIVIDUALS don't have differing ideas of what femininity is.

And can we please cut the "it's not racist" BS? Go look up the meaning of misogynoire. Black women rarely (in fact, almost never) experience sexism alone. It is usually combined with race. It's called intersectionality. Let's not sit here and pretend like we don't know that a racist, white-supremacist society like the USA hasn't spent years teaching people that black women are masculine and automatically less attractive than white women. The racist undertones are obvious here. Stop denying it.

 

[Mad Ones]

It very plainly did not depict "black women's bodies" in that light, which I conceded in my previous post would be racist. It only showed one black woman, the First Lady, and therefore there is literally no reason to believe, without the cartoon depicting more than one black woman, that her depiction had any relation to her race.

This picture doesn't exist in a vacuum and is part a racist tradition of depicting black women as more masculine and therefore less civilized because they perform gender improperly.

 

[DDS]

This picture doesn't exist in a vacuum and is part a racist tradition of depicting black women as more masculine and therefore less civilized because they perform gender improperly.

I would have to agree with this notion. The line between racism and sexism here is pretty faint.

But of course it probably appeals to Trump's base, because like Trump, the artist Ben Garrison is just "telling it like it is."

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Obama on Trump: Don't Be an Idiot

In a blistering condemnation of Donald Trump’s political platform, President Obama told graduating seniors at Rutgers University to be smart and not dumb on Sunday, NPR reports.

“Class of 2016, let me be as clear as I can be: In politics and in life, ignorance is not a virtue,” said Obama, a remark “widely interpreted” as criticism of Trump.

Without naming the presumptive Republican nominee, Obama slammed a number of key Trump policies, including “building walls,” “disparaging Muslims” and “not knowing what you’re talking about.” From CBS News:

“Facts. Evidence. Reason. Logic. An understanding of science,” Mr. Obama said. “These are good things. These are qualities you want in people making policy. These are qualities you want to continue to cultivate in yourselves as citizens.”

“We traditionally have valued those things, but if you were listening to today’s political debate, you might wonder where this strain of anti-intellectualism came from,” he continued. “So class of 2016, let me be as clear as I can be: in politics and in life, ignorance is not a virtue. It’s not cool to not know what you’re talking about. That’s not keeping it real or telling it like it is. That’s not challenging political correctness, that’s just not knowing what you’re talking about. And yet we’ve become confused about this.”​

“Have faith in democracy,” said Obama, acknowledging “it’s not always pretty” as a dark, faintly orange shadow presumably crept overhead.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...akes-aim-at-trump-during-rutgers-commencement

Big O dropping truth bombs on the grads.

 

[routhman]

This picture doesn't exist in a vacuum and is part a racist tradition of depicting black women as more masculine and therefore less civilized because they perform gender improperly.

I'm not familiar with that tradition, but if it is a known thing as it seems to be from a few of the above responses, then I'd be compelled to agree with you that it could certainly be interpreted as racist.

I still hold that there's nothing perceptibly racist within the image itself if you don't know about this history of the broader culture, and as such, it's impossible to tell whether the author intended what you've perceived by virtue of your own awareness of this cultural phenomenon.

So in other words, I guess in the end it comes down to the question of the author's intent. You can't really call something racist if the intent wasn't there. It's like if an alien from another planet, with no knowledge of our culture, handed a watermelon and grape soda to a black person; that wouldn't be racist, because the alien was simply oblivious to the broader context.

But whereas earlier I had dismissed the idea that it was racist, I can at least admit that it's a very realistic possibility.

 

[Mad Ones]

I'm not familiar with that tradition, but if it is a known thing as it seems to be from a few of the above responses, then I'd be compelled to agree with you that it could certainly be interpreted as racist.

I still hold that there's nothing perceptibly racist within the image itself if you don't know about this history of the broader culture, and as such, it's impossible to tell whether the author intended what you've perceived by virtue of your own awareness of this cultural phenomenon.

So in other words, I guess in the end it comes down to the question of the author's intent. You can't really call something racist if the intent wasn't there. It's like if an alien from another planet, with no knowledge of our culture, handed a watermelon and grape soda to a black person; that wouldn't be racist, because the alien was simply oblivious to the broader context.

But whereas earlier I had dismissed the idea that it was racist, I can at least admit that it's a very realistic possibility.

I'm sorry but this is just beyond. The artist isn't an alien, doesn't exist ahistorically, and should understand the contexts of the images they produce. If someone wants to be political they better understand the history and culture of the space they are participating in. It's entire possible and actually common that "unintending" ignorant people produce racism. Black people are calling it racist - what's the artist's excuse?

 

[routhman]

I'm sorry but this is just beyond. The artist isn't an alien, doesn't exist ahistorically, and should understand the contexts of the images they produce. If someone wants to be political they better understand the history and culture of the space they are participating in. It's entire possible and actually common that "unintending" ignorant people produce racism. Black people are calling it racist - what's the artist's excuse?

To be clear, I'm not defending the artist or his repugnant "work." But from a purely philosophical standpoint, the alien story was meant to illustrate that a person's cultural ignorance could validly lead to that person committing an act that, though appearing outwardly racist to others familiar with the broader culture, would not be inherently or inwardly racist in nature. That's just plainly true, as that alien story illustrates.

Now, on the other hand, your criticism that a political commentator should understand the culture and its history is wholly valid, and that's a very good, defensible point. I agree with you. In either case, whether he is racist or whether he is just plain-old ignorant, he's a buffoon.

But in the end, without a clearer indication within the cartoon itself, we don't whether the artist was racist or ignorant, and as a consequence, we can't really say for sure whether the cartoon is racist (meaning it was created with racist intent) or not. That's all. I don't know why this is a contentious statement. It's not meant to downplay the grossness of the cartoon in any way; it's just a general philosophical observation. Does that mean it's any less hurtful to people who perceive it as racist? No, of course not! It's a terrible cartoon!

So in conclusion, I would say that the cartoon is definitely racially insensitive, but that's not the same as it being racist; whether the cartoon's racial insensitivity is because of the artist's ignorance or racism, we can't know for sure.

________
EDIT: If you don't like the alien story, consider an analogous one. Suppose there are two friends, Alice, who is white, and Bob, who is black. While the two friends are hanging out together at Alice's apartment, Alice asks Bob if he'd like a snack, to which Bob replies in the affirmative. Alice gets up from the couch, goes to her fridge, which she opens to find almost empty except for a slice of watermelon and a grape soda. Is she racist for bringing these to Bob for his snack? NO! Nobody in they're right mind would say yes. That's all Alice had for food in her apartment; she wasn't making a racist joke, she was just trying to be a good friend and get her friend Bob some food! It's all a matter of context.

 

[craigdbfan]

Obama on Trump: Don't Be an Idiot

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...akes-aim-at-trump-during-rutgers-commencement

Big O dropping truth bombs on the grads.

Says the social engineering war criminal.

"Big O" needs to join Bush Jr, Clinton, and Pa Bush in the hall of shame. Sad.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

That Online Iconoclast Syndrome is spreading I see. That's the real shame.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Obama on Trump: Don't Be an Idiot

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...akes-aim-at-trump-during-rutgers-commencement

Big O dropping truth bombs on the grads.

As much as I often haven't agreed with his decisions over the past 8 years, I've been thoroughly enjoying the "One Last Ride, No Craps Given" Obama.

 

[regwec]

It is racist. It's using transphobia and sexism to construct black women's bodies differently, and therefore less desirable, than white women's. Racism and (hetero)sexism are often imbricated.

Yes but you can't presume that to be the case. I think the cartoonist might very well have been equally cruel about the first lady if she were white: Trump was certainly similarly cruel about Mrs Cruz. It is simply a horrible thing to do: such behaviour does not need the stamp of racism to be officially certified as objectionable.

 

[chaseter]

sure it is. a racist by it's very definition thinks their race is superior.

now lets put it into the context of the comparison of Michelle and Melania.

What qualities of Melania make her superior to Michelle?

Education? Career? C'mon she was born with her looks and used them to make money and snag a billionaire husband. His 3rd trophy wife. Quite an accomplishment.

Michelle came from nothing and graduated *** laude from Princeton.
She worked at a Chicago law firm and was for a while was City Administrator. Her charity work and community organizing speaks for itself.

But you know what makes America great? Bimbos who take their clothes off for the cameras. Who marry money and live a life of leisure.

I think the cartoon and subsequent debate about it are all encompassing as far as idiocy goes.

However, your post exemplifies the modern day liberalism as a mindset. You insult Melania to defend Michelle. You're no better than the people or the right wing mindset you despise. You're no better than the childish Trump.

 

[chaseter]

Pretty damning and extensively researched of Trump and how he's treated women privately over the years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/u...&gwh=2064613A532130269F86BE1494C8BDB4&gwt=pay

Him and Bill should have a night out in Vegas together.

 

[DDS]

I think the cartoon and subsequent debate about it are all encompassing as far as idiocy goes.

However, your post exemplifies the modern day liberalism as a mindset. You insult Melania to defend Michelle. You're no better than the people or the right wing mindset you despise. You're no better than the childish Trump.

No, calling out racism even a little bit zealously is not equal to being a racist. Even if you'd like it to be.

 

[chaseter]

Calling out racism zealously. LOL

What does insulting Melania accomplish? That's racist and sexist to insult a white woman that had nothing to do with the cartoon. That's the society liberals have created. You scream bigot and racist at the wind and attack anyone and everyone within 7 degrees of separation of what you deem as socially unjust. Hypocrisy.

 

[Mad Ones]

Yes but you can't presume that to be the case. I think the cartoonist might very well have been equally cruel about the first lady if she were white: Trump was certainly similarly cruel about Mrs Cruz. It is simply a horrible thing to do: such behaviour does not need the stamp of racism to be officially certified as objectionable.

Who cares? It's a racist cartoon. The author's intention doesn't matter because authors lose authority over their work once it becomes public. Black people critique this cartoon's racism and the artist doesn't address it. People could say (and have said) all kinds of racist or sexist things and not feel like they're accountable because they (probably willingly) don't understand contexts or effects.

 

[regwec]

I'm sorry, but that's simply incorrect. If there was no racist motivation behind the cartoon, then it is not racist. It may be racially insensitive, ignorant or offensive, and it may therefore be construed as racist, but we cannot impute a thought crime because we are offended. I'm sorry if this seems pedantic, but words of vast social power are beginning to lose their meaning. "Racism" cannot be taken to mean "any expression that is taken to be offensive by a person of the race referenced", because that hollows the word to nothing.

 

[Mad Ones]

I'm sorry, but that's simply incorrect. If there was no racist motivation behind the cartoon, then it is not racist. It may be racially insensitive, ignorant or offensive, and it may therefore be construed as racist, but we cannot impute a thought crime because we are offended. I'm sorry if this seems pedantic, but words of vast social power are beginning to lose their meaning. "Racism" cannot be taken to mean "any expression that is taken to be offensive by a person of the race referenced", because that hollows the word to nothing.

People have done sexist and racist things without thinking they are racist or sexist all the time. Many slave owners never thought of themselves as racist. Many men who control women's lives don't think of themselves as sexist. To not call those things racist or sexist would be nonsensical. "Racially insensitive" and "ignorant" just make racism more palatable. I'm not even arguing the artist is racist. But the cartoon is.

The cartoon is doing something racist and participating in racism. Does an artist have to label their work as "racist" in order for it to be taken up and criticized as racist? Does the artist need to have written "I am racist" in his biography?

 

[regwec]

People have done sexist and racist things without thinking they are racist or sexist all the time. Many slave owners never thought of themselves as racist. Many men who control women's lives don't think of themselves as sexist. To not call those things racist or sexist would be nonsensical. "Racially insensitive" and "ignorant" just make racism more palatable. I'm not even arguing the artist is racist. But the cartoon is.

The cartoon is doing something racist and participating in racism. Does an artist have to label their work as "racist" in order for it to be taken up and criticized as racist? Does the artist need to have written "I am racist" in his biography?

Just read that back. To make your view work, inanimate things have to be given agency. And by whom? Presumably by those who find them offensive, for whatever reason.

An act of expression can only ever evidence the racism of the person expressing; it cannot itself be capable of racism. Intent can be objectively deduced from evidence, but it cannot be conclusively asserted by those who find their feelings hurt. Were that so, you would be able to declare expression to be racist expression even when you knew beyond doubt that neither the speaker nor his intentions were racist.

You could well be right to say that the cartoonist shows his racist intent through the cartoon, but you may be wrong, and simply saying "it's racist because (people of the race referenced) say it's racist" won't do.

 

[Mad Ones]

Just read that back. To make your view work, inanimate things have to be given agency. And by whom? Presumably by those who find them offensive, for whatever reason.

An act of expression can only ever evidence the racism of the person expressing; it cannot itself be capable of racism. Intent can be objectively deduced from evidence, but it cannot be conclusively asserted by those who find their feelings hurt. Were that so, you would be able to declare expression to be racist expression even when you knew beyond doubt that neither the speaker nor his intentions were racist.

You could well be right to say that the cartoonist shows his racist intent through the cartoon, but you may be wrong, and simply saying "it's racist because (people of the race referenced) say it's racist" won't do.

Inanimate things produce effects. Animacy/inanimacy exist in relation to each other. The effect of the cartoon was to perpetuate racist stereotypes/critique Michelle Obama for the ways her race and gender don't conform to white male sensibilities. Yes, black people have critiqued the cartoon for being racist and given reasons. But a certain segment of the American population is so hesitant to account for racism, which certainly (partly) explains Trump.

 

[Charlatan]

I think the cartoon and subsequent debate about it are all encompassing as far as idiocy goes.

However, your post exemplifies the modern day liberalism as a mindset. You insult Melania to defend Michelle. You're no better than the people or the right wing mindset you despise. You're no better than the childish Trump.

if the truth is insulting it's not my fault. if Donny didn't have all that money she wouldn't have given him the time of day.

 

[chaseter]

Thank you for confirming my point.

 

[Kelly]

Just......WOW! at this discussion.

 

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