The Rise of Skywalker Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (IX)

[writer0327]

Either way, J.J. messed up by not having Luke in TFA. Whether he he went away to “hide” on some remote island or to look for some ancient artifact, he still let Han die. I don’t blame Rian for writing Luke the way he did. He was kind of pushed into a corner. In fact, I think Luke would come off looking worse if he let Han die just so he can look for some artifact. That would be stupid and I guarantee people would complain about that saying Luke would never do that in the OT.

If Han Solo, possibly the most popular character in the SW universe, died because Luke allowed it so he could search for some way to beat Snoke, that would have been 10x worse than anything in TLJ. Luke would have been completely and utterly dead to everyone for that move.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I don't project what I believe Luke *should* become as a character. That's putting writers in a box. I look to see if his new actions are consistent with the Luke from the past, and in this case, they are. Rian also clearly understood the original Luke archetype (King Arthur) and applied it to his character. He didn't only focus on the positive aspects of OT Luke's character; he circled around the negative aspects of OT Luke's character, those characteristics that left him on that island in TFA (emotional, rash, unfocused). Luke is ascending to the rank of a master, can an emotional failure along the way lead to a crisis of faith? Sure, same as King Arthur.

So I'm not ignoring your point, I'm just disagreeing with it. Luke is still a rash and emotional individual. He displays these characteristics in ROTJ, especially when it comes to dealing with his *family*. When Vader threatened his sister, Luke goes into an emotional rage. All that calm, focused Jedi training goes out the window and he nearly kills his father. When he acts rashly, turns Ben into Kylo Ren, losing his sister's son to the Dark Side and leading to the death of his students, he becomes despondent and undergoes a crisis of faith and believes the Jedi must end. This situation was his fault, he let everyone down, his own family, the galaxy at large. And when he reviews the history of the Jedi, he sees Jedi were responsible for the creation of Darth Vader, full of pride and hubris, allowed Sidious to rise and destroy the peace of the galaxy. Rey points out that Luke was acting in error and emotionally and thought that Ben's final choice was made. Yoda said the same. It fits with Luke's negative characteristics which we saw in the previous films. This is who the character is. And this Luke undergoes a crisis of faith, completely making sense when you consider who he is (rash) and who was involved (family).

I'm not sure what your point about Leia only sensing Han's death just as he died, but this wouldn't apply to Luke. Luke knew his friends were in trouble in ESB before the Falcon ever landed on Bespin. It's not so much about sensing death, but friends in danger that set off visions in Luke's head and called him into action. So when JJ decided not to have Luke respond to that danger, it meant that something was seriously wrong with Luke, something that would require a great deal of explanation and nothing as simple as "it won't help enough" will do.

This "extremely strong urge to murder his nephew" was described by Luke as "a briefest moment of pure instinct...that passed like a fleeting shadow." Here one second, gone the next. Luke immediately changed his mind, within a second.

Should Luke have gone after Kylo and tried to bring him back? Sure why not? Rian could have easily written a line of dialog that says "And I tried to go after him, I reached out to him, in person and through the Force, but he was already gone." Would that have satisfied the people who didn't like TLJ Luke? Highly doubtful because they would not accept a crisis of faith Luke by any measure. They wanted optimistic, hopeful Luke.

You're disagreeing now but you did ignore it as your previous post completely omitted to comment on that part, which was important to what I was saying. I also didn't say that he should become that, I said that's a logical extension of the journey he had already started so that's not incompetent character writing. There's a very apparent difference in Luke in RotJ which comes from a logical place as he's learned enough to be on the verge of being a Jedi Knight. As for the negative aspects you're mentioning, he's regressing some of Luke's development and making him unable to overcome minuscule versions of the hurdles he tackled before.

When Luke goes into a rage in the RotJ climax it's him being manipulated by two extremely powerful Sith Lords trying to force him towards the dark side. They are using the dark side to break him and he does falter for a short time, but ultimately he passes his final test to become a Jedi Knight and conquers the dark side within him. A hugely important point of his character development as one of his previous flaws were that same weakness towards the dark as his father had.

To compare that to what happens in Ben's hut is pretty amusing. There are no dark forces working upon Luke and trying to twist his actions, he's way further into his Jedi knowledge than when he passed in the past, and yet we're supposed to buy that he can't handle that? Unwavering faith in the goodness of one of the most evil men in the galaxy but actually having a real thought of murdering his innocent nephew in cold blood? It's not believable to have him act like that when he's in a far better place to handle it, and the test is orders of magnitude lesser than what he beat in the past.

There are many ways to explain why Luke didn't come back that doesn't ruin anything with his character. Another poster already gave the simplest one, which would be that he was unable to get off the planet. But as said, even if him not coming back would be done in a way that makes it a flaw of consistency, it's not even remotely close to as bad as what Rian did regarding making Luke just don't give a crap about helping anyone (including Han). Yet you treat the smaller part that actually has possible functional explanations as being of utmost importance, and only offer a casual "why not?" to the bigger part which encompasses the other and that has no explanation that doesn't contradict the character.

I don't know why you keep talking about what "people" that didn't like TLJ Luke would be satisfied with. You're talking to me, and you're making a clear straw man argument if you mix me into that, and there's no reason for you not to as why would you talk to me and only address other concerns about this subject than the ones I have? I don't appreciate straw men.

I already said that I'm fine with Luke being broken as long as it's written in a manner that's consistent with the character, and the change is so utterly simple that it's laughable that they didn't manage to avoid such huge inconsistencies. Especially since it even elevates Snoke and Kylo Ren in the process. Well, then again Rian seems to have done his best to lessen those two characters as well, so that latter point might be moot. In any case, this is what you get when you write the plot on its own and then just bend everything to fit it.

We've arrived at the same change that Game of Thrones had. Martin writes plot based on the characters he have, and D&D wrote their own material based on what they wanted to happen, with disastrous results to the characters.

 

[henzINNIT]

There are many ways to explain why Luke didn't come back that doesn't ruin anything with his character. Another poster already gave the simplest one, which would be that he was unable to get off the planet.

That is terrible though. It's the Star Wars equivalent of locking yourself in.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

That is terrible though. It's the Star Wars equivalent of locking yourself in.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but if I interpret your intent correctly I'd just point out that I wasn't saying that his inability to get off the planet would be by his own design. In fact my argument does by definition mean that it would have to be by some outside force or accident as my example scenario has Luke's intent be to find something that would allow him to come back to challenge Snoke and Kylo again.

 

[Prison Mike]

Still...I don’t think it would look any better. The greatest Jedi master ever doesn’t know how to get off a planet? Nah it would make him seem incompetent

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Still...I don’t think it would look any better. The greatest Jedi master ever doesn’t know how to get off a planet? Nah it would make him seem incompetent

So Yoda is incompetent? He had no way off Dagobah after his ship stopped functioning. Not that he tried to leave, but that's besides the point of being able to.

Personally I couldn't begin to compare that to the issue of Luke just willingly abandoning everyone and let them deal with the new dark lord themselves. I do notice that there's quite a divide between the sides in how things are judged. Like the previous comment that thought it was terrible that Luke wouldn't go back when Han was in danger, but was fine with Luke abandoning everyone. I try to view things from other perspectives as well when I think about them, but in this case I have to admit that I fail to see it.

 

[Prison Mike]

So Yoda is incompetent? He had no way off Dagobah after his ship stopped functioning. Not that he tried to leave, but that's besides the point of being able to.

Personally I couldn't begin to compare that to the issue of Luke just willingly abandoning everyone and let them deal with the new dark lord themselves. I do notice that there's quite a divide between the sides in how things are judged. Like the previous comment that thought it was terrible that Luke wouldn't go back when Han was in danger, but was fine with Luke abandoning everyone. I try to view things from other perspectives as well when I think about them, but in this case I have to admit that I fail to see it.

Yeah same here. I fail to see how any of these ideas would be better than the one we got.

 

[henzINNIT]

So Yoda is incompetent? He had no way off Dagobah after his ship stopped functioning. Not that he tried to leave, but that's besides the point of being able to.

Imagine Yoda in 'Empire' telling Luke he's trapped there, or asking for a lift off of the planet when Luke leaves. Being there by choice or being helplessly stuck makes all the difference. Also Luke has force skype with Leia. He'd look an utter fool.

 

[BatLobster]

Also Luke has force skype with Leia.

I was thinking about this on my drive this morning. When Luke tells Rey "Leia knew too", I think it clearly implies that he also has known she was a Palpatine for some time. This invites the question of how long did he know and was it at any point during TLJ?

My thought is, the moment he reconnects with The Force and has the connection with Leia, that's when he's able to piece it together. How Leia knows is more mysterious, which I'm okay with. But I think it adds a nice new layer to the fight Luke and Rey have after he breaks up the Force skype with Kylo, and how Luke looks kind of fearful of Rey's aggression when she pulls the saber on him.

On the other hand, it would be a pretty wild re-contextualization of TLJ if Luke suspected who she was all along (especially if he and Lando knew anything about Ochi being after Palpatine's family) and was a further reason he was so reluctant to train her at first. I always thought when Rey says "I don't think they like me" about the Jedi caretakers, and Luke quips back "Can't imagine why..." that felt like a bit of a random grumpy remark. Could be interesting if that's actually a bit of Luke's resentment of her bloodline creeping through. Not enough evidence to support either of these theories yet, but I'm hoping the novelization will clear this up.

I'd say the biggest bit of foreshadowing to her being a Palpatine is Luke's "You went straight to the dark" line. It always felt like a clear setup for something bigger, because it's never really paid off in TLJ.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Yeah same here. I fail to see how any of these ideas would be better than the one we got.

They come closer to follow basic logic in character writing, and I guess the demand for that is what differs. The objection that's discussing isn't even making any sense since some are die hard bent on that Luke wouldn't let Han get in such danger, but they are fine with him abandoning Han to such danger as long as he also abandons everyone else as well. Luke not giving a crap about helping Ben makes it extremely likely that Han and Leia would try to.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Imagine Yoda in 'Empire' telling Luke he's trapped there, or asking for a lift off of the planet when Luke leaves. Being there by choice or being helplessly stuck makes all the difference. Also Luke has force skype with Leia. He'd look an utter fool.

Yoda was trapped there. He didn't make sure he couldn't get away, that just happened as his ship broke down.

Of course the plot never called for him to get away from there, and less need to do so since before he went there he did show that he was a decent person and did his duty as a Jedi, which was to do what was in his power to try to save the galaxy. He also created a final plan before going away, so he wasn't just running away to feel sorry for himself. There's a lot of difference between a hero that failed, and a despicable person that just chose selfishness.

 

[Bobber]

When do we find out that Yoda's ship broke down?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't project what I believe Luke *should* become as a character. That's putting writers in a box. I look to see if his new actions are consistent with the Luke from the past, and in this case, they are. Rian also clearly understood the original Luke archetype (King Arthur) and applied it to his character. He didn't only focus on the positive aspects of OT Luke's character; he circled around the negative aspects of OT Luke's character, those characteristics that left him on that island in TFA (emotional, rash, unfocused). Luke is ascending to the rank of a master, can an emotional failure along the way lead to a crisis of faith? Sure, same as King Arthur.

So I'm not ignoring your point, I'm just disagreeing with it. Luke is still a rash and emotional individual. He displays these characteristics in ROTJ, especially when it comes to dealing with his *family*. When Vader threatened his sister, Luke goes into an emotional rage. All that calm, focused Jedi training goes out the window and he nearly kills his father. When he acts rashly, turns Ben into Kylo Ren, losing his sister's son to the Dark Side and leading to the death of his students, he becomes despondent and undergoes a crisis of faith and believes the Jedi must end. This situation was his fault, he let everyone down, his own family, the galaxy at large. And when he reviews the history of the Jedi, he sees Jedi were responsible for the creation of Darth Vader, full of pride and hubris, allowed Sidious to rise and destroy the peace of the galaxy. Rey points out that Luke was acting in error and emotionally and thought that Ben's final choice was made. Yoda said the same. It fits with Luke's negative characteristics which we saw in the previous films. This is who the character is. And this Luke undergoes a crisis of faith, completely making sense when you consider who he is (rash) and who was involved (family).

I'm not sure what your point about Leia only sensing Han's death just as he died, but this wouldn't apply to Luke. Luke knew his friends were in trouble in ESB before the Falcon ever landed on Bespin. It's not so much about sensing death, but friends in danger that set off visions in Luke's head and called him into action. So when JJ decided not to have Luke respond to that danger, it meant that something was seriously wrong with Luke, something that would require a great deal of explanation and nothing as simple as "it won't help enough" will do.

This "extremely strong urge to murder his nephew" was described by Luke as "a briefest moment of pure instinct...that passed like a fleeting shadow." Here one second, gone the next. Luke immediately changed his mind, within a second.

Should Luke have gone after Kylo and tried to bring him back? Sure why not? Rian could have easily written a line of dialog that says "And I tried to go after him, I reached out to him, in person and through the Force, but he was already gone." Would that have satisfied the people who didn't like TLJ Luke? Highly doubtful because they would not accept a crisis of faith Luke by any measure. They wanted optimistic, hopeful Luke.

You keep mentioning Luke going to his friends aid in ESB. But then fail to mention that even Yoda could not see if they would die or not when Luke asked him. 900 year old super Jedi Master Yoda couldn't see if someone died or not. It's more than possible Luke would not have been able to sense Han dying until the moment it actually occurs. Especially with the amount of conflict going through Kylo Ren in that moment.

So there you have your reason for Luke not saving Han. Then you can come up with any number of reasons for him staying on the island following Han's death. If he was there looking for something, Han's death and Luke's inability could have driven him more to find it. Or his X-wing was damaged and he couldn't take off. Or Snoke/Palatine were able to cut him off from the force as they connected Rey and Kylo. All better ideas than what we actually got that didn't spit in the face of a popular OT character.

 

[BatLobster]

It's not about "logic" per se, it's about giving Luke a dramatic reason, in story terms, for being in exile and not being involved in the events of TFA. I mean rewatch the end of TFA. He does NOT look happy to be found, at all. He does not come off like someone who's just been waiting for the next new hope to show up so he can train them. I was not even surprised when he chucked the saber, honestly.

I feel like having it be "Whoopsie, I was so knee-deep in Jedi leveling-up so I can take on Snoke/find the source of his power, that I felt nothing when The First Order decimated the New Republic and chose to continue doing nothing after that happened even as I sensed Han was in danger" would've felt both even more fan-fiction-y than people accuse this trilogy of being as is, and it just simply doesn't add up. If Luke is uber-Jedi at the start of TLJ and still completely in tune with The Force, I don't see how it doesn't make him look even worse for not returning at some point during the events of TFA. I know that was J.J.'s original idea with the floating rocks, but I'm sorry, that just would've made it all worse to me.

I mean honestly. If Luke was supposed to be the same straight forward hero in this trilogy, he could've just went and fetched the Jedi texts from Ahch-To, and continued his Jedi-quest to do whatever you imagined he was doing there while continuing to be involved with his sister's Resistance. Much like Rey in TROS was doing. The fact that he chose to stay in the most remote place in the Galaxy for 5-6 years while The First Order was rising was the giant elephant in the room that TLJ had to deal with. And mind you, TFA establishes that Luke blamed himself and "just walked away from everything".

 

[Prison Mike]

They come closer to follow basic logic in character writing, and I guess the demand for that is what differs. The objection that's discussing isn't even making any sense since some are die hard bent on that Luke wouldn't let Han get in such danger, but they are fine with him abandoning Han to such danger as long as he also abandons everyone else as well. Luke not giving a crap about helping Ben makes it extremely likely that Han and Leia would try to.

Agreed. The way Luke was written in TLJ makes the most logical sense given the set up in TFA.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Agreed. The way Luke was written in TLJ makes the most logical sense given the set up in TFA.

It's not logical in any scenario. To write an existing character as the opposite of what he used to be, and try to explain the change by showing another scene where he also acts the opposite of what he used to be for no reason, is illogical.

It's the equivalent of answering a question with just "because". It's not a real answer.

 

[henzINNIT]

Yoda was trapped there. He didn't make sure he couldn't get away, that just happened as his ship broke down.

Of course the plot never called for him to get away from there, and less need to do so since before he went there he did show that he was a decent person and did his duty as a Jedi, which was to do what was in his power to try to save the galaxy. He also created a final plan before going away, so he wasn't just running away to feel sorry for himself. There's a lot of difference between a hero that failed, and a despicable person that just chose selfishness.

Really? He goes deliberately "into exile" in Episode 3, and is still there when Luke arrives. I never thought of Yoda as stranded.

When do we find out that Yoda's ship broke down?

Never, to my knowledge. Without the deleted scene, we don't even see how he gets there. I don't know a tremendous amount of EU though.

I was thinking about this on my drive this morning. When Luke tells Rey "Leia knew too", I think it clearly implies that he also has known she was a Palpatine for some time. This invites the question of how long did he know and was it at any point during TLJ?

My thought is, the moment he reconnects with The Force and has the connection with Leia, that's when he's able to piece it together. How Leia knows is more mysterious, which I'm okay with. But I think it adds a nice new layer to the fight Luke and Rey have after he breaks up the Force skype with Kylo, and how Luke looks kind of fearful of Rey's aggression when she pulls the sabre on him.

On the other hand, it would be a pretty wild re-contextualization of TLJ if Luke suspected who she was all along (especially if he and Lando knew anything about Ochi being after Palpatine's family) and was a further reason he was so reluctant to train her at first. I always thought when Rey says "I don't think they like me" about the Jedi caretakers, and Luke quips back "Can't imagine why..." that felt like a bit of a random grumpy remark. Could be interesting if that's actually a bit of Luke's resentment of her bloodline creeping through. Not enough evidence to support either of these theories yet, but I'm hoping the novelization will clear this up.

I'd say the biggest bit of foreshadowing to her being a Palpatine is Luke's "You went straight to the dark" line. It always felt like a clear setup for something bigger, because it's never really paid off in TLJ.

I agree that it implies Luke also knew. I think the most common theory is that Luke didn't know until he passed on, but he could inform Leia after his death. She decides to train Rey anyway. I think the context of the conversation works this way. This makes more sense than people knowing pre-TLJ, especially Luke.

 

[BatLobster]

I agree that it implies Luke also knew. I think the most common theory is that Luke didn't know until he passed on, but he could inform Leia after his death. She decides to train Rey anyway. I think the context of the conversation works this way. This makes more sense than people knowing pre-TLJ, especially Luke.

See, I feel like the implication could be that Leia even knew in TFA. I like the idea of being able to look back on that hug in TFA with the idea that Leia puts her faith in Rey from the very beginning because she sees her heart. Also, it makes sense that Leia would relate to and have a connection with Rey, as she also went much of her life without knowing she was the daughter of the (second) most evil man in the galaxy. A connection Luke obviously shares too.

I would like it if Luke knew by the time he makes his stand on Crait. Especially with his "I will not be the last Jedi" line. I think it's a powerful idea that Luke and Leia would've put their faith in The Emperor's granddaughter and aid her journey toward the light, the opposite of what The Emperor did to their father. A true reversal of Palpatine's legacy.

EDIT: Terrio just backed me up on this, in terms of Leia knowing from the beginning:

So, the idea was that Rey, who’s had inclinations towards the Dark Side, would learn in the course of this movie that Leia is training the descendant of her greatest enemy and that she has the Force strength of Leia’s greatest enemy. Discovering that you actually descended from your adoptive family’s greatest enemy, the same enemy who corrupted Anakin Skywalker and is responsible for the destruction of the Skywalker family in the first place, felt most devastating to us. Based on that, we were very moved by the idea that Leia would have known that from the very beginning, but since she still saw such hope, heart and spirit in Rey, she decided that she was going to take a chance on putting all the hope of the galaxy into the hands of a descendent of her greatest enemy. As Luke says, some things are stronger than blood. That felt like a really strong story point to us.

'Star Wars' Co-Writer Chris Terrio Sets Record Straight on Perceived 'Last Jedi' Jabs

Fantastic interview btw.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Really? He goes deliberately "into exile" in Episode 3, and is still there when Luke arrives. I never thought of Yoda as stranded.

As I said the plot never tries to get him away from there, at least nothing that is canon, but it has been explained that his ship broke down so he couldn't go anywhere even if he wanted to. Not that this is of much importance to the general discussion.

 

[Brother Jack]

Yoda stayed on Dagobah because he wanted to. Even if he didn't have a ship to leave, he could have reached out through the force and contacted someone to come and get him. Which is exactly what Luke could have done on Ahch-To if he was stranded. He was only there for six years because he wanted to be.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Yoda stayed on Dagobah because he wanted to. Even if he didn't have a ship to leave, he could have reached out through the force and contacted someone to come and get him. Which is exactly what Luke could have done on Ahch-To if he was stranded. He was only there for six years because he wanted to be.

What kind of space taxi do you expect? Han dies the day before Rey shows up.

Not that it's a given that Luke would feel anything anyway. He felt that his friends were in danger in ESB but not even Yoda could tell in how much danger. Luke's friends were in even more danger in RotJ when the Emperor himself set up a trap but Luke didn't feel anything.

Trying to claim that Luke sensing things as a rule is laughable as it's not consistent whatsoever. Luke's core traits are however consistent in all the three OT movies, yet the TLJ defenders don't seem to give a crap about that.

 

[Prison Mike]

It's not logical in any scenario. To write an existing character as the opposite of what he used to be, and try to explain the change by showing another scene where he also acts the opposite of what he used to be for no reason, is illogical.

It's the equivalent of answering a question with just "because". It's not a real answer.

True. Given the scenario that J.J. laid out for Luke in TFA, him going into a self imposed exile makes sense.

 

[henzINNIT]

As I said the plot never tries to get him away from there, at least nothing that is canon, but it has been explained that his ship broke down so he couldn't go anywhere even if he wanted to. Not that this is of much importance to the general discussion.

Where was it explained his ship broke down?

See, I feel like the implication could be that Leia even knew in TFA. I like the idea of being able to look back on that hug in TFA with the idea that Leia puts her faith in Rey from the very beginning because she sees her heart. Also, it makes sense that Leia would relate to and have a connection with Rey, as she also went much of her life without knowing she was the daughter of the (second) most evil man in the galaxy. A connection Luke obviously shares too.

I would like it if Luke knew by the time he makes his stand on Crait. Especially with his "I will not be the last Jedi" line. I think it's a powerful idea that Luke and Leia would've put their faith in The Emperor's granddaughter and aid her journey toward the light, the opposite of what The Emperor did to their father. A true reversal of Palpatine's legacy.

Fantastic interview btw.

Good find!

I'm not sure I like this though. While there's an interesting bond between Leia and Rey in the first two, Leia already felt out of place in TROS due to Carrie's passing, and all that added lore on top was really clumsy. I don't think this family history adds anything, except making Palpy's downfall kind of ironic. It's not like you'll ever judge someone based on who their grand parent is. There's not something that runs in the blood, Rey's father was a direct descendant and died to protect her.

Maybe in time I'll warm to it. Luke is doing some incredible long-con if we're supposed to believe he knew during TLJ though.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

True. Given the scenario that J.J. laid out for Luke in TFA, him going into a self imposed exile makes sense.

I can see something breaking Luke, but the explanation needs to be better. Preferably including Luke being himself and a proper Jedi but just failing against the threat.

Where was it explained his ship broke down?

One of the reference books I think. It's on the Canon part of Wookiepedia.

 

[writer0327]

You're disagreeing now but you did ignore it as your previous post completely omitted to comment on that part, which was important to what I was saying. I also didn't say that he should become that, I said that's a logical extension of the journey he had already started so that's not incompetent character writing. There's a very apparent difference in Luke in RotJ which comes from a logical place as he's learned enough to be on the verge of being a Jedi Knight. As for the negative aspects you're mentioning, he's regressing some of Luke's development and making him unable to overcome minuscule versions of the hurdles he tackled before.

When Luke goes into a rage in the RotJ climax it's him being manipulated by two extremely powerful Sith Lords trying to force him towards the dark side. They are using the dark side to break him and he does falter for a short time, but ultimately he passes his final test to become a Jedi Knight and conquers the dark side within him. A hugely important point of his character development as one of his previous flaws were that same weakness towards the dark as his father had.

To compare that to what happens in Ben's hut is pretty amusing. There are no dark forces working upon Luke and trying to twist his actions, he's way further into his Jedi knowledge than when he passed in the past, and yet we're supposed to buy that he can't handle that? Unwavering faith in the goodness of one of the most evil men in the galaxy but actually having a real thought of murdering his innocent nephew in cold blood? It's not believable to have him act like that when he's in a far better place to handle it, and the test is orders of magnitude lesser than what he beat in the past.

There are many ways to explain why Luke didn't come back that doesn't ruin anything with his character. Another poster already gave the simplest one, which would be that he was unable to get off the planet. But as said, even if him not coming back would be done in a way that makes it a flaw of consistency, it's not even remotely close to as bad as what Rian did regarding making Luke just don't give a crap about helping anyone (including Han). Yet you treat the smaller part that actually has possible functional explanations as being of utmost importance, and only offer a casual "why not?" to the bigger part which encompasses the other and that has no explanation that doesn't contradict the character.

I don't know why you keep talking about what "people" that didn't like TLJ Luke would be satisfied with. You're talking to me, and you're making a clear straw man argument if you mix me into that, and there's no reason for you not to as why would you talk to me and only address other concerns about this subject than the ones I have? I don't appreciate straw men.

I already said that I'm fine with Luke being broken as long as it's written in a manner that's consistent with the character, and the change is so utterly simple that it's laughable that they didn't manage to avoid such huge inconsistencies. Especially since it even elevates Snoke and Kylo Ren in the process. Well, then again Rian seems to have done his best to lessen those two characters as well, so that latter point might be moot. In any case, this is what you get when you write the plot on its own and then just bend everything to fit it.

We've arrived at the same change that Game of Thrones had. Martin writes plot based on the characters he have, and D&D wrote their own material based on what they wanted to happen, with disastrous results to the characters.

I suppsed you also ignored my reference to the King Arthur archetype that Rian Johnson used to further Luke's story. This isn't lazy writing or an illogical step for the character. Its tried and true storycraft coming from a person who clearly understands the genre, but overestimated the audience he was writing for.

I guess my question to you is when is it permissible to evolve a character, in Luke's case, to undergo a crisis of faith? Something common to even the most dogmatic adherents?