The Rise of Skywalker Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (IX)

[writer0327]

True. Given the scenario that J.J. laid out for Luke in TFA, him going into a self imposed exile makes sense.

Indeed. And the details explained in TLJ harmonize with TFA.

 

[BatLobster]

Maybe in time I'll warm to it. Luke is doing some incredible long-con if we're supposed to believe he knew during TLJ though.

That part, I feel much less sure about myself, but it's kind of interesting to ponder the possibilities for now.

 

[Venomfan]

Give Mark Hamill a disney+ show that takes place between these trilogies please

 

[henzINNIT]

Give Mark Hamill a disney+ show that takes place between these trilogies please

I said elsewhere that Disney and Dave Filoni should do a post-ROTJ animated series with Luke, Leia and Co. It would be great fun to see the classic heroes in action. If Hamill wanted to voice it, that'd be a great bonus.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I suppsed you also ignored my reference to the King Arthur archetype that Rian Johnson used to further Luke's story. This isn't lazy writing or an illogical step for the character. Its tried and true storycraft coming from a person who clearly understands the genre, but overestimated the audience he was writing for.

I guess my question to you is when is it permissible to evolve a character, in Luke's case, to undergo a crisis of faith? Something common to even the most dogmatic adherents?

You can do it any time you want as long as you provide a plausible chain of events that explains it. To explain something contradictory by just showing something else that's contradictory is not an answer to anything. That's what breaks the character - the lack of proper explanation. Not that Luke is broken or anything like that, as already has been said.

 

[writer0327]

You can do it any time you want as long as you provide a plausible chain of events that explains it. To explain something contradictory by just showing something else that's contradictory is not an answer to anything. That's what breaks the character - the lack of proper explanation. Not that Luke is broken or anything like that, as already has been said.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of a religious adherent I think his crisis of faith is plausible, under the circumstances.

After Ben falls, Luke reviews his failure and blames it on his arrogance in believing he could pass on his Jedi learnings because he was "Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master...a legend." His hubris led to a family tragedy, the slaughter of students under his care, and the emergence of a new Dark Lord, setting the galaxy on a course to repeat its tragic past. He then reviews the failures of Jedis past and concludes their failures were likewise due to their arrogance. They created and trained Vader, allowed Sidious to rise, leading to the destruction of the Republic and a devastating civil war, where billions of lives were lost. He concludes the Jedi ultimately do more harm than good and it is time for their faith to end.

 

[The Guard]

Fans are complaining about the "consistency" of Luke's character as if because he overcame being tested in one way in ROTJ that therefore he wouldn't fail in another way. That's...that's not how real people work. Or how characters work, for that matter.

Some are treating these elements of the film/franchise like they're math problems that have only one solution or possible outcome. They're not.

Even in the Extended Universe stories, Luke does at various points almost succumb to the Dark Side, doesn't he? He's not, as a character, suddenly going to be immune to doubt, fear and pain because he overcame doubt, fear and pain once before in a particular story.

As for Luke abandoning the galaxy to evil when he exhiles himself...Luke isn't the only one who saved the galaxy in the OT and Luke isn't the only person fighting for good after the Empire falls. In fact, his sister, who is head of the Resistance (which, you know, essentially fights evil), also seems to be a fairly powerful Jedi.

It was said that Yoda pops up "far too late", but it's ostensibly Yoda's pep talk, at least in part, that causes Luke to decide to help the Resistance. Seems like per the movie, Yoda showed up exactly when he needed to.

What Rian Johnson does in TLJ is not portray Luke especially inconsistently...he portrays Luke consistently over a longer period of time within the story. Luke still overcomes his doubt, pain and fear, but his tests are more significant in a generational sense, and happen over a long period of time. Johnson dramatized Luke overcoming those types of obstacles in a far more compelling way than "dramatic but brief emotional struggle". Which is something that we'd already seen.

 

[Delwin]

They created and trained Vader, allowed Sidious to rise, leading to the destruction of the Republic and a devastating civil war, where billions of lives were lost. He concludes the Jedi ultimately do more harm than good and it is time for their faith to end.

Forgetting about thousands of generations of successful peacekeepers. And then, instead of trying to "get" Ben and stop him (which he intended in the first place) he says, nah. Forget about the rest of the Galaxy. Yeah, extremely plausible..

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Looking at it from the viewpoint of a religious adherent I think his crisis of faith is plausible, under the circumstances.

After Ben falls, Luke reviews his failure and blames it on his arrogance in believing he could pass on his Jedi learnings because he was "Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master...a legend." His hubris led to a family tragedy, the slaughter of students under his care, and the emergence of a new Dark Lord, setting the galaxy on a course to repeat its tragic past. He then reviews the failures of Jedis past and concludes their failures were likewise due to their arrogance. They created and trained Vader, allowed Sidious to rise, leading to the destruction of the Republic and a devastating civil war, where billions of lives were lost. He concludes the Jedi ultimately do more harm than good and it is time for their faith to end.

I could see thoughts like that come up after he had tried all he could to save Ben, but failed, but Luke freaks out to the point of being completely unrecognizable the very moment he notices any darkness in Ben, even if it's a fleeting moment. And he never lifts a finger to fix it either.

Luke doesn't give up on the people he cares about even if his life is on the line, he eventually learned the lesson of patience and control from Yoda, and he finally conquered the dark side in the Emperor's throne room. Based on that I think the transition in TLJ was written very poorly.

And Luke's situation makes it all the more weird that the Force ghosts aren't there to help him. We even have Luke's father being one after his redemption, yet no one seems to care, except Yoda when it's many years too late. It would probably have been easier to swallow without Yoda showing up as then the option that they are just gone would be on the table, but instead they seem more powerful than ever.

As a side note, I never bought the idea that Luke would think the Jedi didn't fill an important function. They kept the peace for thousands of years but suddenly that's supposed to mean nothing because they eventually failed? It was even Luke himself that, as a Jedi, fixed that failure so he should know better than anyone that without the Jedi the Sith rule the galaxy.

 

[titansupes]

I'm glad people are bringing this up-- I find it incredibly frustrating that Luke reduces the Jedi history like that.

And the fact that there was a better option staring Johnson right in the face, in regards to giving Luke a personal story/haunted past, as well as tying into and expanding the lore, while also paralleling Rey's journey to find purpose and belonging, AND properly using the provocative idea of the First Jedi Temple that JJ set up and ultimately went to waste--

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice". Then they fell twice in 60 years. What's the common denominator in those two falls of the Jedi? The emergence of Skywalkers.

THAT could have been something, IMO.

EDIT: Screw it, fanfiction time--

Spoiler

Luke doesn’t want anything to do with Rey. He solemnly drops the 'saber to his feet (rather than doing a comedy toss over his shoulder).

He’s actively investigating the first Jedi Temple, searching for the lost archives, hoping there’s a key in there to defeating the Dark Side once and for all—the original Jedi were able to keep the Sith underground for over a thousand generations, after all… But now, they’ve taken over the galaxy TWICE in the last 60 years.

Through a combo of tech and Force ability, Luke is breaching the Temple, a few levels deep now. Something goes wrong with the tech, the entrance (or whatever) starts to close, Luke tries to hold it all together but can't-- until Rey steps in at the last second, and they do it together. He sees something special in her and agrees to let her stay. They’ll figure out the next steps together, and in return for her help with the troublesome tech ("I'm an experienced farmer, an ace pilot and a Jedi Master... But I never was much of an engineer") Luke agrees to give her some BASIC lessons, but no more until he gets his answers. Besides, what’s a master without an apprentice?

There’s riddles and Force based booby traps etc. Rusted but seemingly unbeatable guard droids (where they eventually realise the most Jedi'ish way of defeating them is to stop fighting entirely, and the droids let them pass).

They train in the meantime— Luke teaches her not just how to connect to the Force, but how to LISTEN to the Force, lightsaber defense etc. They go through stage after stage, deeper into the Temple. The whole time, we mostly see the same Luke we know-- full of hope and enthusiasm... yet somehow, just off slightly. Rey can sense it, too, and says as much to Chewie and Artoo (who help where they can).

One night, after a particularly challenging stage/on the eve of reopening the archives, he’s not just looking for a key to fixing the Jedi path, and defeating the Sith... He's looking for the Journal of the Whills aka the source of the Chosen One prophecy. Like Luke said, the Jedi kept the peace for over a thousand generations, but have fallen twice in 60 years... and what was the common denominator in those twin falls... The emergence of the Skywalkers. Anakin and Ben were supposed to be the greatest of them, but both fell, both helped cause untold destruction. Rey protests-- for all Anakin's misdeeds, he did right in the end. And Luke himself is good. That's when Luke confides in her that he himself almost slipped, and that cost him Ben.

As much as Rey is searching for her place in things, Luke is searching for his and his whole families. For the first time, we realise we’re not just seeing his usual sense of hope and enthusiasm… but actual desperation... He's at the end of his tether. Rey wants answers for him more than she does for herself now.

One last combined effort. Luke and Rey breach the archive. Luke is emotionally overwhelmed, and thanks Rey for helping him get here, without her it would not have happened. Luke approaches the old books... brimming with lost Jedi knowledge from a thousand generations before... but one book in particular seems to call to him-- the Journal of the Whills. Luke touches it, and is thrown into a vision.

It shows him the First Jedi, his First Padawan… The Temple and Council… the first CONFLICT. It shows the Jedi winning… and losing. Their first major defeat. It shows the Jedi’s secret cunning… their arrogance and their hubris…. Leading to their creation of a stronger Jedi… a form of Jedi their traditional, ingrained values wouldn’t accept…. their creation of the SITH. Designed to be their very secret weapon when the Jedi ways failed them. But, of course, they lose control. The Sith strikes out on his own. Then trains another, and another… The Jedi go to war against these monsters of their own creation. The fallen Sith swears he’ll return, says the Jedi have shackled themselves to the Light… Swears he no longer serves the Force, but the Force serves him… and one day there will come a Sith so powerful he can create… life itself. An image of Vader flashes and Luke rips himself out of the vision.

Luke, out of breath, in full on nervous breakdown. There’s no saving the Jedi, they were broken and hypocritical from the outset… and the Skywalker’s are the bastard children of their secret shame.

“It’s time for the Jedi to end”.

They argue, Rey leaves. Luke goes to burn the Temple, Yoda appears--

Luke: Did you know?!
Yoda: Mmm…. Suspicions, I held. Proof, I did not. To focus on the problems in front of my nose, I chose.

Etc, etc.

And Luke comes to realise (and tell Rey... because it's bizarre they don't have another scene together in TLJ) that he now realises it doesn't matter where or who you're from, but that you make the choice to be and do good every day etc. You choose your own path.

Something like that, at least.

 

[Herolee10]

See, I'm not against the idea of Luke going through a period where he has a crisis of faith. However, if you're going to put a character through an emotional journey then it should be one that makes sense based on what's been established of their character.

From what we were shown/told in "The Last Jedi", Luke only saw Ben's future tyranny as Kylo Ren. Under no circumstances should Luke have been tempted to kill Ben in his sleep based on that conclusion alone. This is the same guy that was willing to give his father, the (well established) scourge of the galaxy, a chance at redemption. Plus, it doesn't really help when we (as the audience) don't exactly know on WHY Ben was tempted to the dark side. All we're left with is really bread crumbs that we have to use and decipher on why WE think Ben turned to the dark side prior to his incident with Luke.

And to make matters worse, Rian had to kill Luke immediately afterwards. Thus, we're left with a Luke Skywalker who never managed to atone for his mistakes or reestablish an successful Jedi Order. Disney/Kathleen/Abrams/Rian took an well beloved/timeless hero from our pop culture and turned him into a shell of his former self so that they could make Rey into a credible character/protagonist/hero.

Personally, I'm of the mind where I'm no longer going to consider the sequel trilogy as canon anymore. Not after the huge crap that the studio took on Luke's legacy and the Skywalker lineage. Really, you could summarize each trilogy like this:

- Prequel Trilogy: The Fall of Anakin Skywalker
- Original Trilogy: The Redemption of Anakin Skywalker and Rise of Luke Skywalker.
- Sequel Trilogy: Rey adopting the surname of a character that gave her ONE lesson in the ways of the force. Leia, as far as we know, never adopted the Skywalker family name.

 

[henzINNIT]

The Vader comparison is often cited but I don't think it really works. The context of each situation is drastically different:

Vader: Luke is out-matched and unlikely to defeat Vader. Though he is encouraged to kill, Luke senses that a hint of his father survives, and with it a chance to reach out and turn Vader. Luke doesn't want to fight his family, and refusing could save his dad and the galaxy in one fell swoop.

Kylo: Luke has spent decades of his life rebuilding what his father destroyed. The galaxy is at peace, his friends are safe, and Luke is training new students. He then sees the future of Ben to cause another generation of death and suffering. They have tried to save Ben's soul but it appears to be in vain. Luke could prevent untold darkness by snuffing out one life, and considers it, for a moment.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

The Vader comparison is often cited but I don't think it really works. The context of each situation is drastically different:

Vader: Luke is out-matched and unlikely to defeat Vader. Though he is encouraged to kill, Luke senses that a hint of his father survives, and with it a chance to reach out and turn Vader. Luke doesn't want to fight his family, and refusing could save his dad and the galaxy in one fell swoop.

Kylo: Luke has spent decades of his life rebuilding what his father destroyed. The galaxy is at peace, his friends are safe, and Luke is training new students. He then sees the future of Ben to cause another generation of death and suffering. They have tried to save Ben's soul but it appears to be in vain. Luke could prevent untold darkness by snuffing out one life, and considers it, for a moment.

The vision is just one potential future, as both we and Luke have directly been told in the films. You can't foresee the future with any great accuracy, and even Yoda couldn't see what would happen within a day or two in ESB.

So given that Luke knows more than well that nothing is exact about Force visions, and that he never gave up on one of the most evil men in the galaxy and was less close to go for the coup de grace when the dark side was actively used upon him, still makes that a very weak explanation.

His plan to turn Vader, after Yoda told him that the dark side dominates your destiny forever if you fall, must have been far more unlikely to succeed even to his mind. From the only source we have on the matter Ben hadn't even fallen to the dark side yet either.

 

[writer0327]

See, I'm not against the idea of Luke going through a period where he has a crisis of faith. However, if you're going to put a character through an emotional journey then it should be one that makes sense based on what's been established of their character.

From what we were shown/told in "The Last Jedi", Luke only saw Ben's future tyranny as Kylo Ren. Under no circumstances should Luke have been tempted to kill Ben in his sleep based on that conclusion alone. This is the same guy that was willing to give his father, the (well established) scourge of the galaxy, a chance at redemption. Plus, it doesn't really help when we (as the audience) don't exactly know on WHY Ben was tempted to the dark side. All we're left with is really bread crumbs that we have to use and decipher on why WE think Ben turned to the dark side prior to his incident with Luke.

And to make matters worse, Rian had to kill Luke immediately afterwards. Thus, we're left with a Luke Skywalker who never managed to atone for his mistakes or reestablish an successful Jedi Order. Disney/Kathleen/Abrams/Rian took an well beloved/timeless hero from our pop culture and turned him into a shell of his former self so that they could make Rey into a credible character/protagonist/hero.

Personally, I'm of the mind where I'm no longer going to consider the sequel trilogy as canon anymore. Not after the huge crap that the studio took on Luke's legacy and the Skywalker lineage. Really, you could summarize each trilogy like this:

- Prequel Trilogy: The Fall of Anakin Skywalker
- Original Trilogy: The Redemption of Anakin Skywalker and Rise of Luke Skywalker.
- Sequel Trilogy: Rey adopting the surname of a character that gave her ONE lesson in the ways of the force. Leia, as far as we know, never adopted the Skywalker family name.

It comes down to whether or not you just accept what the story gives you or not. I can understand why many will not accept but I guess for me, Star Wars has always asked me to fill in the blanks. For instance, the OT told us Anakin was a good man who was seduced by the dark side. I accept that, but when I watched how it actually occurred in the PT, it was beyond unacceptable, it was downright insulting to my intelligence. Even after watching the Clone Wars as the creators attempted to fill in the blanks, I am still unsatisfied with this seduction. However, I just accept what I am being told about the characters and their motivations, just as I accept other attempts to fill in the gaps in logic, such as when it comes Anakin wanting to save Padme and believing he needed to learn the dark side to do so.

I think SW has always used this highly emotional, "certain point of view" brand of storytelling. The whole thing about "faith" is that faith hits us all differently. A crisis of faith can occur when someone undergoes an emotional situation they don't quite understand (Anakin comes to mind, maybe its inherited) and their reasoning may not make a smidgen of sense to anyone else, but it makes sense to that person in crisis. Logic goes out the window. All we can do in Luke's case is fill in the blanks based on what we know.

Rey definitely should never have taken the Skywalker name. That was fan service, like giving Chewie the medal, which made no sense in the context of the film, only making sense to fans.

The ST seems to be about shaping your own destiny regardless of where you came from, not letting your heritage decide your fate. That was at least what I think Rian Johnson was aiming towards.

 

[writer0327]

The vision is just one potential future, as both we and Luke have directly been told in the films. You can't foresee the future with any great accuracy, and even Yoda couldn't see what would happen within a day or two in ESB.

So given that Luke knows more than well that nothing is exact about Force visions, and that he never gave up on one of the most evil men in the galaxy and was less close to go for the coup de grace when the dark side was actively used upon him, still makes that a very weak explanation.

His plan to turn Vader, after Yoda told him that the dark side dominates your destiny forever if you fall, must have been far more unlikely to succeed even to his mind. From the only source we have on the matter Ben hadn't even fallen to the dark side yet either.

Luke said Snoke had already turned him.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Luke said Snoke had already turned him.

Yes, that slipped my mind for some reason. There are conflicting sources.

 

[BatLobster]

Rey definitely should never have taken the Skywalker name. That was fan service, like giving Chewie the medal, which made no sense in the context of the film, only making sense to fans.

I'm kind of torn on this point. I think it works on a broader level for the saga, and the idea that Palpatine's heir ends up rejecting his legacy and choosing to honor the legacy of the people that opposed his tyranny is a really powerful way to symbolize good conquering evil once and for all in the story, it pays off the Skywalkers' faith in Rey as well as fully resolving Rey's search for belonging/family. I just think the way it's set up in that particular scene feels a bit on the nose and clunky, and definitely predictable.

Also, as much as I enjoyed Luke's arc in TLJ, I have to admit that the Rey Skywalker ending may have sat better if we gotten to see a bit more warmth develop in the relationship between Luke and Rey. At the same time, by the end of TLJ, Luke shows enough belief in Rey to sacrifice his life, confident she will become the heir to the Jedi. Luke's support and trust in Rey is there, it's just more implicit. Also complicating matters is the fact that in terms of the Rey/Leia relationship, they were obviously very limited with what they could do. In retrospect, that moment where Leia hugs Rey instead of Chewie in TFA becomes a pretty crucial moment.

Basically I get the criticism of the ending, but I also think it works better than it even should given the circumstances.

 

[writer0327]

I'm kind of torn on this point. I think it works on a broader level for the saga, and the idea that Palpatine's heir ends up rejecting his legacy and choosing to honor the legacy of the people that opposed his tyranny is a really powerful way to symbolize good conquering evil once and for all in the story, it pays off the Skywalkers' faith in Rey as well as fully resolving Rey's search for belonging/family. I just think the way it's set up in that particular scene feels a bit on the nose and clunky, and definitely predictable.

Also, as much as I enjoyed Luke's arc in TLJ, I have to admit that the Rey Skywalker ending may have sat better if we gotten to see a bit more warmth develop in the relationship between Luke and Rey. At the same time, by the end of TLJ, Luke shows enough belief in Rey to sacrifice his life, confident she will become the heir to the Jedi. Luke's support and trust in Rey is there, it's just more implicit. Also complicating matters is the fact that in terms of the Rey/Leia relationship, they were obviously very limited with what they could do. In retrospect, that moment where Leia hugs Rey instead of Chewie in TFA becomes a pretty crucial moment.

Basically I get the criticism of the ending, but I also think it works better than it even should given the circumstances.

I agree with this. As fans, I think we're more forgiving when we like the outcome of their decisions. We get past those leaps in logic more readily. That's why Chewie getting a medal is okay to most people, and Rey Skywalker is acceptable, even though Rey Organa is probably more likely given Rey and Leia's relationship.

 

[henzINNIT]

The vision is just one potential future, as both we and Luke have directly been told in the films. You can't foresee the future with any great accuracy, and even Yoda couldn't see what would happen within a day or two in ESB.

So given that Luke knows more than well that nothing is exact about Force visions, and that he never gave up on one of the most evil men in the galaxy and was less close to go for the coup de grace when the dark side was actively used upon him, still makes that a very weak explanation.

His plan to turn Vader, after Yoda told him that the dark side dominates your destiny forever if you fall, must have been far more unlikely to succeed even to his mind. From the only source we have on the matter Ben hadn't even fallen to the dark side yet either.

You say the visions aren't accurate but they are. They all came true unless I'm forgetting something, sometimes happening because a character attempted to prevent it. Regardless, those visions are depicted as being vivid enough that the character experiencing them is compelled to act on them. They are also incredibly traumatic, with characters being visibly shaken by the experience.

I agree that Luke Skywalker would think better of a vision. He is a hero, the eternal optimist. He saw the most brutal future imaginable, more than saw - he felt it - and only wavered for a second. And when that moment passed, he was crushed by the weight of that intent and it thoroughly destroyed him.

As mentioned above, rightly or wrongly, Luke believed at this point that Ben had already turned.

I'm kind of torn on this point. I think it works on a broader level for the saga, and the idea that Palpatine's heir ends up rejecting his legacy and choosing to honor the legacy of the people that opposed his tyranny is a really powerful way to symbolize good conquering evil once and for all in the story, it pays off the Skywalkers' faith in Rey as well as fully resolving Rey's search for belonging/family. I just think the way it's set up in that particular scene feels a bit on the nose and clunky, and definitely predictable.

Also, as much as I enjoyed Luke's arc in TLJ, I have to admit that the Rey Skywalker ending may have sat better if we gotten to see a bit more warmth develop in the relationship between Luke and Rey. At the same time, by the end of TLJ, Luke shows enough belief in Rey to sacrifice his life, confident she will become the heir to the Jedi. Luke's support and trust in Rey is there, it's just more implicit. Also complicating matters is the fact that in terms of the Rey/Leia relationship, they were obviously very limited with what they could do. In retrospect, that moment where Leia hugs Rey instead of Chewie in TFA becomes a pretty crucial moment.

Basically I get the criticism of the ending, but I also think it works better than it even should given the circumstances.

I too am torn on this. Emotionally it worked for me, but if I think about it I like it less.

'Skywalker' is really only important to us, and not Rey. TROS shows us that she had a much better and longer relationship with Leia than she did with Luke. Rey's biological parents loved her and died to protect her. Considering her connection to Ben and Han, even 'Solo' makes more sense.

 

[BatLobster]

'Skywalker' is really only important to us, and not Rey. TROS shows us that she had a much better and longer relationship with Leia than she did with Luke. Rey's biological parents loved her and died to protect her. Considering her connection to Ben and Han, even 'Solo' makes more sense.

To be fair though, I don't think she's really dishonoring her parents either by taking the Skywalker name. They too hated Sheev and died trying to keep Rey far from his reach and legacy. I'm sure they'd be happy to see their daughter escape from that dark cloud and find an adoptive family that knows who she is but sees her spirit.

I don't really buy the idea that she should've just owned the Palpatine name either. There's a reason you don't bump into any Hitlers IRL. The name just has too bad a connotation, and Rey deserves better than having to live with that hanging over her for the rest of her life.

Now, yeah...you could argue the Skywalker name has a messy history too considering Anakin=Vader, but it's at least associated with Anakin and Luke's Jedi heroics too and it's always been pretty muddy as to how much of the galaxy truly knew Vader's identity.

I think it's basically a fairly solid thematic epilogue, but the way it's presented feels a bit contrived because it's not until this movie (and Solo, I guess) do we have characters suddenly so inquisitive about last names.

 

[antsman41]

- Prequel Trilogy: The Fall of Anakin Skywalker
- Original Trilogy: The Redemption of Anakin Skywalker and Rise of Luke Skywalker.
- Sequel Trilogy: Overcoming the Jedi/Sith battles, learn from past mistakes... grow beyond... // nevermind Palpatine! Sith! ANH/ROTJ with better cgi.

Fixed, courtesy of Disney's Chinese overlords.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

You say the visions aren't accurate but they are. They all came true unless I'm forgetting something, sometimes happening because a character attempted to prevent it. Regardless, those visions are depicted as being vivid enough that the character experiencing them is compelled to act on them. They are also incredibly traumatic, with characters being visibly shaken by the experience.

I agree that Luke Skywalker would think better of a vision. He is a hero, the eternal optimist. He saw the most brutal future imaginable, more than saw - he felt it - and only wavered for a second. And when that moment passed, he was crushed by the weight of that intent and it thoroughly destroyed him.

As mentioned above, rightly or wrongly, Luke believed at this point that Ben had already turned.

It's really Yoda that says it. You can't accurately see the future because it's always in motion.

I also have direct proof that Luke's vision of that they couldn't turn Ben back was wrong because Ben does turn back to the light in the trilogy. Kylo's struggle with the light also furthers the idea that he could very well turn back.

They just made it so Luke actually didn't learn all he was taught in the OT, and apparently he never achieved any greater wisdom and confidence rising to the level of master either. Maybe he had his mind wiped like C-3PO, so he also forgot that the Jedi were the ones keeping the galaxy safe for thousands of years.

 

[henzINNIT]

It's really Yoda that says it. You can't accurately see the future because it's always in motion.

I also have direct proof that Luke's vision of that they couldn't turn Ben back was wrong because Ben does turn back to the light in the trilogy. Kylo's struggle with the light also furthers the idea that he could very well turn back.

They just made it so Luke actually didn't learn all he was taught in the OT, and apparently he never achieved any greater wisdom and confidence rising to the level of master either. Maybe he had his mind wiped like C-3PO, so he also forgot that the Jedi were the ones keeping the galaxy safe for thousands of years.

Yoda says it is difficult to see, not inaccurate. Again, the films repeatedly show visions of the future coming true.

That isn't direct proof. That's a deliberate misreading of the scene. Luke saw Ben becoming a monster and destroying everything he loved. This is what he saw and it did happen.

I prefer Luke with flaws. Much more interesting, and a better role for Hamill to play, despite his reservations.

 

[Donner]

Self fulfilling prophecy no? Luke saw destruction by Ben, wanted to kill him to avoid said destruction, ended up being the reason destruction happened because of the attempt on Ben's life.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Yoda says it is difficult to see, not inaccurate. Again, the films repeatedly show visions of the future coming true.

That isn't direct proof. That's a deliberate misreading of the scene. Luke saw Ben becoming a monster and destroying everything he loved. This is what he saw and it did happen.

I prefer Luke with flaws. Much more interesting, and a better role for Hamill to play, despite his reservations.

I mean that detailed things will risk to be inaccurate since the future isn't solid enough to provide details.

I was going by your description of the vision as I don't remember the exact words being used, and what happens certainly doesn't align with what you said a couple of posts ago. No one did anything to bring Ben back. For some it was because they didn't manage to get to him, for Luke it was because he couldn't be arsed to try.

Luke has plenty of flaws in the OT. That's one reason why he's a better character than Rey. I just prefer his flaws to be written consistent to his character. I've seen far more complex characters than Luke be written to develop far more logically than what Rian shoehorned in. This was an area I hoped Disney-owned Lucasfilm would be better at than Lucas, but it was an empty hope.