Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[Harlekin]

What did he have to say?

As far as it not being a big deal...I dunno Harlekin. To me, it's just another glaring example of his lack of interest in being faithful to these characters' personalities. Storm and T'Challa are BLACK. We get it. But does their ethnicity have to bleed through every panel, conversation, and relationship the two characters have? Must iconic villains like Dr. Doom, etc., be rewritten to also have a racist bone just to offset their blackness?

That's not what it was about. Doc Doom being a racist? Don't like it either. I was just talking about his impersonating a fan that likes his book.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

That's not what it was about. Doc Doom being a racist? Don't like it either. I was just talking about his impersonating a fan that likes his book.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

What did he say when he got busted?

 

[Harlekin]

Can't recall.

 

[Iron Maiden]

I will have to go back and check with my co-mods to find out how all that played out on the other message board.

But Cap mentioned the Storm / Doom "romance", which is another example of egos at play in the comic book industry. John Byrne was on the FF when Chris Claremont wrote the story where the X-Men faced Doom (Uncanny #145 or so). The part that got John Byrne's goat was that Arcade struck a match off of Doom's armor... and got away with it t:

So, when he wrote the FF#258, which is unique in the FF history because Doom is the "star" of the comic and the FF don't appear, he decided to remedy the slight to Doom's personage. He retconned (in fact, I think the term retcon may have evolved from this incident) the incident into a faulty Doombot, as we can see....

Bryne and Claremont did have a bit of a rivalry back then but years later, Byrne said on his MB that there's really no grudge between them about this. It's just something he felt Doom would never let a minor mook like Arcade get away with and Claremont later agreed.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Exactly.

Victor is a gypsy. He of all people should understand the ills of prejudice. Not saying that minorities can't be bigots too--they can--but Doom has never struck me as one. He wants complete domination, but over all, not just one race.

I thought Hudlin's racist "take" on Victor is yet another example of his lack of understanding and research on these characters.

WHAT research???? t:

I also think that his BP book has actually taken high profile black characters like Storm and T'Challa several steps back, not forward.

In term of characterization, yup.

In term of prowess, well, let's just say I ain't touching that one because of the upcoming 'Clor getting owned' thingy. t:

 

[spideyboy_1111]

no offense to anyone... but the statement didn't bug me... dooms an egotistical ass hole... do you really expect doom to not act like an ass? or think its wrong for him to be an ******* and make racist comments? itsn ot like hudlin is being racist by making a "bad guy" say "bad" things

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

See, I could buy Doom being racist but only if it was against everyone who wasn't, well, Doom. Doom is Doomist, in that, if you're not Doom, you're clearly inferior and oftentimes he will go to great lengths to illustrate just how inferior one really is to the glory that is Doom.

Hudlin, well, Hudlin didn't do that.

Doomist. Love it.

And there are quite a few things Hudlin doesn't get. t:

 

[blind_fury]

no offense to anyone... but the statement didn't bug me... dooms an egotistical ass hole... do you really expect doom to not act like an ass? or think its wrong for him to be an ******* and make racist comments? itsn ot like hudlin is being racist by making a "bad guy" say "bad" things

Doom is not Hitler. He's classy and doesn't resort to something as pointless as racism.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

no offense to anyone... but the statement didn't bug me... dooms an egotistical ass hole... do you really expect doom to not act like an ass? or think its wrong for him to be an ******* and make racist comments? itsn ot like hudlin is being racist by making a "bad guy" say "bad" things

Huh, it's sort of canon that Doom is more dignified than that.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Doom is not Hitler. He's classy and doesn't resort to something as pointless as racism.

i didnt find it as racist as i found it bigatory... and dooms a big bigot... infact... i felt like he was being more "humanist" then racist... i felt he was implying the mutant gene, rather then skin color.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Huh, it's sort of canon that Doom is more dignified than that.

see post above

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

i didnt find it as racist as i found it bigatory... and dooms a big bigot... infact... i felt like he was being more "humanist" then racist... i felt he was implying the mutant gene, rather then skin color.

Bah, how about we settle with the fact that Hudlin just couldn't come up with good villanous one-liners for said scene?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

i dunno... i kinda liked em... to be honest.. and he hit a nerve... thats the doom i like, one who says he wants you to join him, but then degrades you

 

[spideyboy_1111]

come to think of it... i think doom has a very anti-social problem... i see it alot with home schooled kids or "nerds" who kinda have sheltered themselves into this big bubble, where they have nothing but there brains, there very lonely people so they become very pompous and egotistical. They don't know how to comunicate with others, and are forever stuck inside this shell

 

[Kitsune]

Doom thinks everyone is inferior to him. I don't think he cares much about weather the dark skin monkeys are superior to the light skinned ones.

(And just to clarify, I'm not calling anyone a monkey, I'm just saying that's how Doom sees us)

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Doom thinks everyone is inferior to him. I don't think he cares much about weather the dark skin monkeys are superior to the light skinned ones.

(And just to clarify, I'm not calling anyone a monkey, I'm just saying that's how Doom sees us)

i think in this particular case... doom was just trying to justify his superiority... (in his own way) wich came off racist or humanist? mutantist?

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

no offense to anyone... but the statement didn't bug me... dooms an egotistical ass hole... do you really expect doom to not act like an ass? or think its wrong for him to be an ******* and make racist comments?

I agree with you--Victor is egotistical.

But he's also sophisticated with is ego...he has a purpose...a goal that it feeds. Let us remember that Dr. Doom is one of the most intelligent men of all (MU) time--in Reed Richards' range, mind you. He's met and communicated with every intelligent being out there--from the Phoenix, to Galactus, to every alien in between. Doom has literally seen it all. Therefore he knows better than anyone that there is no scientific evidence that suggests that blacks are inferior to other human races. He knows that's not true--and to suggest he suddenly believes that stupidity is really an insult to his intelligence. It trivializes his greatness.

itsn ot like hudlin is being racist by making a "bad guy" say "bad" things

A good writer knows how to make an antagonist's villainy potent without resorting to cliched stereotypes.

Sadly, Mr. Hudlin is not--and probably will never be--that good writer. It was blatantly obvious that he was "searching" for a way to get his readers to view Doom as T'Challa's enemy. Instead of creating some sophisticated way of causing a conflict what does he do? Go for the lowest denominator: the race card (TRANSLATION: "I really want my readers--who are mostly black--to hate Dr. Doom as my black protagonist's enemy, so I'll just make this classic villain insult most of my readers! Yeah! That'll get their goat! :rolleyes).

It's wack writing at its zenith.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Maybe so, but i dont see doom ever not thinkinking hes not above anyone, he thinks everyone is below him man or imortal

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Maybe so, but i dont see doom ever not thinkinking hes not above anyone, he thinks everyone is below him man or imortal

And that's fine.

But I don't believe he would stoop to the racist garbage that the "mortals" beneath him resort to. That would be confirmation that he subscribes to their manner of thinking and again, this is out of character for Victor.

He would consider such foolishness to be petty--not indulge in it himself.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Maybe so, but i dont see doom ever not thinkinking hes not above anyone, he thinks everyone is below him man or imortal

Let me put it this way if I were working at an office and I had a black co-worker and I said to you,

"I'm a better employee than he is because I'm smarter and a more efficient worker"

doesn't that carry different implications than,

"I'm a better employee than he is because he's black and therefore not as intelligent or effecient" ?

One could be chalked up as arrogance. The other is outright racism.

Of course it does. If Hudlin wanted a racist villain than he should have used Red Skull.


Edit: And that panel of Doom destroying his bot is awesome.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Good use of analogy there Upset Spideyfan.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Maybe so, but i dont see doom ever not thinkinking hes not above anyone, he thinks everyone is below him man or imortal

The point we're making is that DOOM wouldn't HAVE to resort to RACE. Like, EVER.

Hell, if anything he'd be ashamed at not coming up with something more clever or ruthless.

 

[Iron Maiden]

For the curious, here is Rich Johnston's [URL="http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2642[/URL"]Lying in the Gutters[/url] where he reports on the posts Hudlin made on the Black Panther MB under different names.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Let me put it this way if I were working at an office and I had a black co-worker and I said to you,

"I'm a better employee than he is because I'm smarter and a more efficient worker"

doesn't that carry different implications than,

"I'm a better employee than he is because he's black and therefore not as intelligent or effecient" ?

One could be chalked up as arrogance. The other is outright racism.

Of course it does. If Hudlin wanted a racist villain than he should have used Red Skull.


Edit: And that panel of Doom destroying his bot is awesome.

but like i said, i found it to be more of him being offensive torward mutants, in that there "special" because how they were born, not by earning it, rather then being racist

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Let me put it this way if I were working at an office and I had a black co-worker and I said to you,

"I'm a better employee than he is because I'm smarter and a more efficient worker"

doesn't that carry different implications than,

"I'm a better employee than he is because he's black and therefore not as intelligent or effecient" ?

One could be chalked up as arrogance. The other is outright racism.

Of course it does. If Hudlin wanted a racist villain than he should have used Red Skull.


Edit: And that panel of Doom destroying his bot is awesome.

ahh but did doom DIRECTLY say Black? or Race? he never said black, but race wise one could argue the mutant race, after all he reffered to T'challa as having a latent mutant gene within the biggatory comments