Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[spideyboy_1111]

And that's fine.

But I don't believe he would stoop to the racist garbage that the "mortals" beneath him resort to. That would be confirmation that he subscribes to their manner of thinking and again, this is out of character for Victor.

He would consider such foolishness to be petty--not indulge in it himself.

see last post

 

[highguard]

You know I think that this is endemic of a greater problem at marvel which must go all the way to the top. There have been in the last few years too much mischaracterization of characters in ways that seem to be deliberately designed to shock the readers.

I think this is an editorial and ultimately a culture that must be coming from the editor in chief, namely Mr Joe Queseda. Something is off.

In the recent blockbuster civil war storyline, many of the primary characters are unrecognizable.

Recently Gwen Stacy has become through a retcon a bedhopper and a cheat.

Crystal of the Inhumans... same thing and situation as Gwen.

The Rawhide Kid who I grew up reading was recently revealed as being Gay. This is hard to wrap your mind around as this obviously is not how the character was presented in his debut or decades of continuity.

Thor decided a while back that he should rule the world and tell men what to do, although this was possibly the one that was best explained but probably hurt that book tremendously.

Doom himself actually kidnapped and threatened the Richards Children and with intent, worse he killed his lifelong love. This to me is way out of character for Doom.

And now to hear this from Black Panther, honestly I liked the early issues when Romita Jr was doing the art and I enjoyed the Black Centric storyline and dealing with historical realities but yeah letting it drip into characteriztions that are off shows a lack of creativity.

And here people may be the heart of the problem. Maybe the "House of Ideas" has run out of ideas. If everything has already been done what is left, basically the storylines that no one would write or were unwilling to write until now.

Clearly the powers that be at marvel think that these are the only stories left to be told.

So we should prepare ourselves for the desecration of many things once thought sacred at the house of ideas.

We live in a time where this kind of story is not really very far off;

"Susan Richards pregnant with the Submariner's child"!



Nuff said.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

You know I think that this is endemic of a greater problem at marvel which must go all the way to the top. There have been in the last few years too much mischaracterization of characters in ways that seem to be deliberately designed to shock the readers.

I think this is an editorial and ultimately a culture that must be coming from the editor in chief, namely Mr Joe Queseda. Something is off.

In the recent blockbuster civil war storyline, many of the primary characters are unrecognizable.

Recently Gwen Stacy has become through a retcon a bedhopper and a cheat.

Crystal of the Inhumans... same thing and situation as Gwen.

The Rawhide Kid who I grew up reading was recently revealed as being Gay. This is hard to wrap your mind around as this obviously is not how the character was presented in his debut or decades of continuity.

Thor decided a while back that he should rule the world and tell men what to do, although this was possibly the one that was best explained but probably hurt that book tremendously.

Doom himself actually kidnapped and threatened the Richards Children and with intent, worse he killed his lifelong love. This to me is way out of character for Doom.

And now to hear this from Black Panther, honestly I liked the early issues when Romita Jr was doing the art and I enjoyed the Black Centric storyline and dealing with historical realities but yeah letting it drip into characteriztions that are off shows a lack of creativity.

And here people may be the heart of the problem. Maybe the "House of Ideas" has run out of ideas. If everything has already been done what is left, basically the storylines that no one would write or were unwilling to write until now.

Clearly the powers that be at marvel think that these are the only stories left to be told.

So we should prepare ourselves for the desecration of many things once thought sacred at the house of ideas.

We live in a time where this kind of story is not really very far off;

"Susan Richards pregnant with the Submariner's child"!



Nuff said.

i agree to an extents... but...

we still dont know really what happened the night norman slept with gwen... we were never given a "real" reason behind it... and we might never... kinda like wheres kaine and baby may?

Crystal in my eyes can sleep with whoever she wants... shes not cheating on anyone, its pretty clear she can hardly stand pietro these days, and what he did to the inhumans, last thing she needs to be is loyal to him

as for people being gay, get used to it, someone coming out is sometimes a shocker... its not always obvious and i see nothing wrong with that... its realistic.

but i do agree that the house of Ideas, is indeed running out.. because its all shock value

 

[highguard]

i agree to an extents... but...

we still dont know really what happened the night norman slept with gwen... we were never given a "real" reason behind it... and we might never... kinda like wheres kaine and baby may?

Crystal in my eyes can sleep with whoever she wants... shes not cheating on anyone, its pretty clear she can hardly stand pietro these days, and what he did to the inhumans, last thing she needs to be is loyal to him

as for people being gay, get used to it, someone coming out is sometimes a shocker... its not always obvious and i see nothing wrong with that... its realistic.

but i do agree that the house of Ideas, is indeed running out.. because its all shock value

You misunderstand what I am saying, but its my fault, I should have been clear in what I was talking about.

Recently in an issue of new avengers, #24 it was revealed that one time Johnny and Crystal had a fight and that she basically went off and slept with the Sentry a character no one remembers, I just thought that the Crystal of those days, like Gwen would never do that.

On the Rawhide issue, buddy, people can do what they want, that is why God gave us free will, I may not think that it is a good thing, the homosexual lifestyle but that is why Jesus came I believe to help us overcome things that are not good and all of us have things in us that are not good. So none of us can throw stones.

Of course I am aware that some people feel there is nothing wrong with being gay and as I said we are free to believe what we want.

I was not throwing a stone at people who were or are gay, what I was saying is that it is not how the character was first presented and as such it is like eliminating decades of continutity of a character and how you view them.

Now i think that they wanted to do a story where they took a famous character who was NOT KNOWN to be gay and out him to get maximum traction but I am suggesting that this is the same as taking DOOM who is not known to be a racist and making him one by Hudlin.

The change is so shocking as to be unbelievable and hard to grasp.

And for me it is easier to grasp DOOM as a racist than the Raw Hide Kid as gay. Cause you can't go much farther than changing a character than that.

That is the point I was making.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

the thing you don't understand, is unless rawhide was shown as a johnny storm or iceman kinda player and having his way with women... thats one thing, but you'd be shocked at how many masculine gay men are out there... ones you would NEVER ever guess... and hell many gay men even do sleep around with women because they are in denile.... and that later calls serious problems... so ya you might be upset a hero you liked "switched sides" but i say get over it, its still the same character, he just likes the same sex.. if you can't handle it then realise theres a problem with yourself, not the character

 

[highguard]

^^ Well I have many problems so I guess I better go deal with them and accept that the Rawhide storyline should not have raised any eyebrows.

In any case I was just saying that Marvel is doing a lot of shock type stories and I think they may feel they have no other place to go and I think that with a little bit of imagination they could avoid butchering characters.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

hey...people seem very accepting of Batwoman becoming a lesbian... i see nothing wrong with Rawhide becoming gay... esp since hes kinda a no name character... where not many will care. Least of wich should be shocking about rawhide... hes not a big enough character.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

most disturbing thing about rawhide becoming gay... is his damn name... that kinda offends me, being gay myself

 

[highguard]

^^ Even more shocking is what they did to Gwen Stacy, not a no name character but a revision that changes the entire perception of one of the most beloved characters in all of Marvel.

I still can't believe that one, and that is one I think they have to fix or Spiderman will have lost a piece of the heart of what made him who is is.

 

[highguard]

hey...people seem very accepting of Batwoman becoming a lesbian... i see nothing wrong with Rawhide becoming gay... esp since hes kinda a no name character... where not many will care. Least of wich should be shocking about rawhide... hes not a big enough character.

Been out of the loop on DC stuff, did not know about this and yeah she is a much bigger character than Rawhide.

Well gotta catch some sleep but this is an interesting discussion.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

honestly.. it doesnt change my perception much... but then again, i still truely believe she was drugged... and "thinks" she made the choice.. kinda like how when people are drunk and know what they did the next day, just don't know why... thus she blamed herself and felt ashamed

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

most disturbing thing about rawhide becoming gay... is his damn name... that kinda offends me, being gay myself

Interesting. Why does that offend you? You think his name suggests having sex bareback or is it this reference:

 

[Darthphere]

most disturbing thing about rawhide becoming gay... is his damn name... that kinda offends me, being gay myself

That was his name long before they made him gay.

 

[Malus]

You misunderstand what I am saying, but its my fault, I should have been clear in what I was talking about.

Recently in an issue of new avengers, #24 it was revealed that one time Johnny and Crystal had a fight and that she basically went off and slept with the Sentry a character no one remembers, I just thought that the Crystal of those days, like Gwen would never do that.

And don't forget, in that same recent Avengers story, Crystal is written as willing to get it on with Sentry now, though she knows he is married.
Nice.
So Bendis screwed over the character of Crystal both in the present and in the past with the retcon that she had an affair on Johnny while they were together in the Lee/Kirby era.
It's complete BULL****.

Quesada and these punks under him are slowly dragging the Marvel legacy (what's left of it) into today's MTV/BET sludge culture, where they are drowning the babies of Lee,Kirby & Ditko.

As for this Hudlin punk making Doom a racist...SEE ABOVE STATEMENT.

 

[highguard]

^^ Yeah Bendis seems to be very efficient at screwing over characters.

 

[supermarvelman]

I dont have any problem with homosexuality, so to me there is absolutely no shock value in a character that is gay or lesbian.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

That was his name long before they made him gay.

Exactly, he's a stock character...so...what gives Spideyboy?

To be honest, I didn't even think about what kind of "gay" connotation his name might have until you mentioned it. Now all I can see him saying is "I like it raw."

*wipes bleeding eyes*

 

[supermarvelman]

I thought the name sounded gay before he ever became gay.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

And don't forget, in that same recent Avengers story, Crystal is written as willing to get it on with Sentry now, though she knows he is married.
Nice.
So Bendis screwed over the character of Crystal both in the present and in the past with the retcon that she had an affair on Johnny while they were together in the Lee/Kirby era.
It's complete BULL****.

Quesada and these punks under him are slowly dragging the Marvel legacy (what's left of it) into today's MTV/BET sludge culture, where they are drowning the babies of Lee,Kirby & Ditko.

As for this Hudlin punk making Doom a racist...SEE ABOVE STATEMENT.

Amen--you hit the nail on the head bro.

With all these "erractic" character changes and baseless relationship fluctuations (i.e. Storm's microwaved "marriage" to T'Challa, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if Q & Co. all get fired one day and a huge retcon comes through...like Wanda strikes again or something.

Oh...and I can sooo see Namor being Susan's baby daddy under the current circumstances. She and Reed are never going to be the same.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Exactly, he's a stock character...so...what gives Spideyboy?

To be honest, I didn't even think about what kind of "gay" connotation his name might have until you mentioned it. Now all I can see him saying is "I like it raw."

*wipes bleeding eyes*

rotflmao. t: t: t:

But yeah, I never thought his name was gay innuendo or anything...

 

[Malus]

Amen--you hit the nail on the head bro.

With all these "erractic" character changes and baseless relationship fluctuations (i.e. Storm's microwaved "marriage" to T'Challa, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if Q & Co. all get fired one day and a huge retcon comes through...like Wanda strikes again or something.

Oh...and I can sooo see Namor being Susan's baby daddy under the current circumstances. She and Reed are never going to be the same.

A one-shot "Crisis on Infinite Earths" type thing on one of the traditional skip weeks that turns the clock back on EVERYTHING since X-Men #136 would be fine by me.
Then resume publishing as if everything since 1981 has been a dream.

I'm half-kidding of course...

But I do think most of the real damage has been done in the years since then.
All the mishandled characterization... The Clone Saga.... The Gwen Stacey crap last year. I'm not even reading most of the junk they're turning out these days, so I can't imagine how unrecognizable the X-Men has become...But I know that Dr.Doom killing his first love and creating a mystic armor out of her skin for Christ's sake....THAT was seriously screwed up.

The Marvel characters have been dead for years now.
What we try to enjoy every month these days is just product.

It's just not the same anymore, especially for the young reader. Just last year we had Morlun plucking out Spider-man's eye and eating it - in the pages of a main line Spidey title, not the "mature" Knights title...WHO in their right mind would want that to be some 8-year old's first Spiderman comic??
If the comics of my childhood had been a fraction as disturbing and inappropriate as much of Marvel's main line titles are today, I know that comics would have been off-limits for me and many others.

Marvel is undermining their future by appealing almost exclusively to the 24-year old male.

A whole generation of comics readers...isn't coming.
Of the few that do start reading comics, most of them (a much higher percentage than generations past) will drift away (there's just too much competing media now) and as a result they will not be making the weekly visits to the shops the way so many of us have.

Superhero comics began as juveniule literature, and there's nothing wrong with that. But Stan and company managed to craft exciting juvenile literature that adults could also enjoy.
Quesada and company don't have a freakin' clue.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

And don't forget, in that same recent Avengers story, Crystal is written as willing to get it on with Sentry now, though she knows he is married.
Nice.
So Bendis screwed over the character of Crystal both in the present and in the past with the retcon that she had an affair on Johnny while they were together in the Lee/Kirby era.
It's complete BULL****.

Quesada and these punks under him are slowly dragging the Marvel legacy (what's left of it) into today's MTV/BET sludge culture, where they are drowning the babies of Lee,Kirby & Ditko.

As for this Hudlin punk making Doom a racist...SEE ABOVE STATEMENT.

I could not have said it better myself.

And someone said something about Namor being Sue's kid's father?

Unfortunately, given Marvel's current handling, I've been dreading that possibility for a while now.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

A one-shot "Crisis on Infinite Earths" type thing on one of the traditional skip weeks that turns the clock back on EVERYTHING since X-Men #136 would be fine by me.

t: t: t:

But I know that Dr.Doom killing his first love and creating a mystic armor out of her skin for Christ's sake....THAT was seriously screwed up.

Definitely one of those 'wtf' moments. Would comment on the Gwen thingy, but I haven't read Spidey in ages. Will do a bit of a search and most likely agree. t:

Edit: OMFG. Osborn twins??? *gags*

Marvel is undermining their future by appealing almost exclusively to the 24-year old male.

Huh. Kinda fit the bill and agree with pretty much all of your points.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Interesting. Why does that offend you? You think his name suggests having sex bareback or is it this reference:

its just to cliche.. kinda degrading there like.. hey this is kinda a funny gay sounding name lets make this character gay in an out of continuity limited series

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Exactly, he's a stock character...so...what gives Spideyboy?

To be honest, I didn't even think about what kind of "gay" connotation his name might have until you mentioned it. Now all I can see him saying is "I like it raw."

*wipes bleeding eyes*

like i said... its like they took a gay sounding name.. and went ooo lets make him gay.. cuz no strait cowboy would namehimself that