Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[KenK]

We shouldn't let this thread stray so far from the original point. I simply brought up Apocalypse because he is one of the few black super villains in comic books today. I think the point has been made that Egyptians are black. So we should move on from there and return to the main discussion. Not that this hasn't been enlightening...

Who looks at Apocalypse as a black man, even if he is from Egypt?!

 

[Red Mask]

Marvel Entertainment and Universal will be releasing a 'Black Panther' film, but I doubt he'll be grouped with the mutants in this thread.

Peace and prosperity to Africa.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Too much afrocentricity. We should just say, "They are egyptian" and leave it at that. In the Western mind, we have to fit people into certain groups, "Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid" because that's the way we were raised, but it is completley wrong.

People have their own lives and cultures, and we best leave it that way. Some may look black, but genetically, they are not. Melanesians and Aborigines looks black, but genetically, they are closer to asians than africans. Just leave it as it is.

Also, as many said, there are a lot of diversities that move in to a certain location, which changes the people. In a lot of the Arab countries, there are South Asians there that do menial jobs, therefore this might be the reason that a lot of them seem dark to you, such as the Bengalis. Some arabs I have seen look white. A lot of people from Lebanon that I have seen fit that description. Also a lot of the people labeled as "Terrorists" underneath the beard and such, can pass for a white person. Ever see the American Taliban?


Back on topic, John Stewart = best Black Knight

Good points.

 

[Arach Knight]

Who looks at Apocalypse as a black man, even if he is from Egypt?!

http://www.blacksuperhero.com/

That website has Apocalypse listed. Though one of the contributors was dubious about Apocalypse and his standing as being black. Much like it is in this thread, it is a subject still up for debate. But he is still included in that collection of black heroes and villains across the comic industry.

 

[SuperVenom]

Who looks at Apocalypse as a black man, even if he is from Egypt?!

And they say white people are racist for trying to claim everything, geesh!

I agree, if you Africa (not the northern part where arabs are), then they are black. It's even much debate if they are from the Carribeans or Dominican Republic, because while they are black, they are closer to that culture and therefore many do not even consider themselves Africans.

Next I am going to hear them claiming Chinese heroes, yes from China, as a black man. Stop going by phenotypes folks, genetically you are different!

 

[Arach Knight]

Other than you getting my Emma Frost thread closed, I have no problems with you SuperVenom. You generally seem like a good person....but that last statement was writhe with unintentional ignorance. I suppose in the most basic sense, people are genetically different. Some people have genes for blond hair, others for black etc etc. But at the base of it all, we are all human. So ultimately we are all the same oxygen dependent carbon based life forms. Nobody is trying to claim everything. but when you consider that the entire continent of Africa has historically been natively inhabited by black people...there should be no real debate about that kind of blackness. And people in the Carribean, like some (not all) people in Brazil, are descendents of people dropped off on the slave route. If you are savy enough on the matter, you will know that African slaves were not solely exported to America. Nor were they only taken by the English to America. The Dutch and the Portuguese were also huge African slave traders. And the slave trade route is three points, like a triangle. From the eastern coast of Africa, to the Carribean/South American area up to America and then back to Africa. So nobody is falsely claiming people in that region to be of African descent either. History is history despite your best efforts to rob black people of what little heritage they are left today, in this part of the world.

 

[SuperVenom]

Other than you getting my Emma Frost thread closed, I have no problems with you SuperVenom. You generally seem like a good person....but that last statement was writhe with unintentional ignorance. I suppose in the most basic sense, people are genetically different. Some people have genes for blond hair, others for black etc etc. But at the base of it all, we are all human. So ultimately we are all the same oxygen dependent carbon based life forms. Nobody is trying to claim everything. but when you consider that the entire continent of Africa has historically been natively inhabited by black people...there should be no real debate about that kind of blackness. And people in the Carribean, like some (not all) people in Brazil, are descendents of people dropped off on the slave route. If you are savy enough on the matter, you will know that African slaves were not solely exported to America. Nor were they only taken by the English to America. The Dutch and the Portuguese were also huge African slave traders. And the slave trade route is three points, like a triangle. From the eastern coast of Africa, to the Carribean/South American area up to America and then back to Africa. So nobody is falsely claiming people in that region to be of African descent either. History is history despite your best efforts to rob black people of what little heritage they are left today, in this part of the world.

I have no problem with you either, and furthermore I didn't call you the N (since you don't like it spelled out, either way it's the same) Word, which you implied after I corrected you twice. That is the only problem I have with you, since you jumped to conclusions and accused me of something I didn't do. I don't water things down, I tell it like it is. If someone cannot join in a conversation, and join in it as an analytical one when I made it out to be that way, then I do not know what to say. You just see the N word and automatically you go bonkers, no matter what the subject is about, and accuse someone of calling you that even though in their post no where near did it say such a thing. But I'll leave it at that.

Genes changed the entire being. You would be surprised to find out if a European person had closer genes to Africans than Melanesians and Aborigines. Apparently, everyone (almost everyone) judges people by phenotype and not by genetics, which makes that person almost as ignorant as someone who thinks all hispanics are Mexicans.

You have to get into environmental factors and such in order to judge the reason why they look such a way they do.

As for Apocalypse, dunno how the heck someone claimed him as African. It's either, "He is white" or "He is black", just leave him as Egyptian and stop trying to fit him into societies mold.

Just because somewhere is right next to the place, doesn't make them that. If this was the case, we might as well claim Europeans as Africans, since they are close to the next country which is closer to the next country that is close to Africa. And btw, we don't even know if people were even charcoal or even black for that matter when it even started on Africa.

We know currently that the Khoisan are one (if not thee) oldest people on the earth, and they reside in a place in Africa. Even these Khoisan have different genetic markers from other places in Africa, so even there things start to break down and you can see it start to become diverse even within the African population.


Another subject I want to ask, are there even that many black heroes or villans in Marvel or DC? I believe Omega Comics is geared toward the Black Community, but what of the two major comics?

I know of John Stewart, Black Panther, Steel, Two Face (he's black right?), Ororo, Spike, Ororos Nephew with quick speed (anyone know his name, saw him in the cartoon when he got possessed), and thats about it I think.

 

[terry78]

No, there aren't that many well known, but there are more that were created, hence our having the discussion.

 

[SuperVenom]

No, there aren't that many well known, but there are more that were created, hence our having the discussion.

Shucks, thanks though.

John Stewart is still on me tops then, I love his stoic nature, and he's unique compared to the other GLs that have been on Earth.

 

[comic book girl]

This reminds me of the time when my Israeli friend was happy when she found out Magneto was not only Jewish, but suffered through the Holocuast.

 

[SuperVenom]

This reminds me of the time when my Israeli friend was happy when she found out Magneto was not only Jewish, but suffered through the Holocuast.

The heck? I guess it adds more credibility to her being Jewish and makes Jewish people look more powerful, thats my take on that one. But I dunno whats so happy about someone suffering, especially since it was a real event.

 

[Arach Knight]

-Well Supervenom i'm glad we can reach some middle ground. I never said that you personally called me that word, I simply said you implied that you hated black people...and for the most part, you statement did seem to give that idea. Even the moderator took you to mean that. But misunderstandings happen. Sometimes we have the right idea in our mind, but when we give birth to words...it sometimes come out differently than we were thinking it. So consider us tabula rasa good sir.

As it were, being "black" by modern social standards mostly refers to being from Africa. In other countries, it may refer to any dark skinned individual including Arabs, Aborigines and in some odd cases, even Samoans. I understand your points about geneology versus phenotype. And for those that are not aware, phenotype refers to the physical expression of genes. So things like almond eyes (Asians) or lush lips (Africans), would be examples of phenotype. As it were though, Apocalypse does have a mostly African phenotype. Lush lips, broad nose. Depending on who inks him, his skin at times even does resmble a vauge beige tone.

In regards to Egypt and Africa however....the continent may house numerous nations, but the ethnic composition is unified. Africa is often viewed as being "black." Though, it is not always the case that continental region is an expression of phenotype or other ethnic factors. The Maylay for instance are often considered Asian, because of their phenotype. However, regionally, they are not Asian. An Indian from India however, is technically Asian (South-East Asian). So I know full well the argument you are making. But in the case of Egypt, I am inclined to side with the idea that ancient Egyptians are indeed "black" by the most common association with the word (of dark skin and African descent). Even ancient Egyptian art has them depicting themselves as being of a dark complexion.

Compare that to this older portrait of an Arab princess with her African maid

We can see how pale she is, especially compared to the way that the Egyptians depict themselves in their own ancient art. You can see why it is quite reasonable to define Egyptians as "black." Especially in comparison to your Arab parallels. For even further insight on the difficult subject, I found this apt quote. "Genetically, Egyptians are very closely related to the other people of Africa, and (compared to Europeans or Asians) they are African or black." This encompasses your idea Supervenom, but maintains my point. Egyptians are seen as "black" because the natives of the entire contient are "black" by most modern associations of the word. They may have become lighter in skin and have intergrated other cultures and ideas, but they are ultimately related to the same darker skinned inhabitants that make up the face of Africa. You can read the rest of the article (which is very well stated)....here http://www.jimloy.com/issues/afro.htm


-There are numerous black figures in the gallery of characters from both major publishers...including...

-Mr.Terrific (DC)
-Luke Cage (Marvel)
-Storm (Marvel)
-Apocalypse (Marvel)
-Blade (Marvel)
-Cardiac (Marvel)
-Prowler (Marvel)
-Black Panther (Marvel)
-Bishop (Marvel)
-Green Lantern (John Stewart) (DC)
-Steel (DC)
-Bloodwynd (DC)
-Askari The Spear (Marvel)
-Spawn (Image)
-Chapel (Image)
-Hammer and Anvil (Hammer is black) (Marvel)
-Tombstone (Albino, but black) (Marvel)

Those are just ones I can personally name off the top of my head. If you go to http://www.blacksuperhero.com they have an entire list by with publishers, of black characters in the comic industry. It makes my list look pitiful. But my list is at least an example. We are not as ignored in some regards. Black characters exist...they just aren't always headliners.

 

[SuperVenom]

-Well Supervenom i'm glad we can reach some middle ground. I never said that you personally called me that word, I simply said you implied that you hated black people...and for the most part, you statement did seem to give that idea. Even the moderator took you to mean that. But misunderstandings happen. Sometimes we have the right idea in our mind, but when we give birth to words...it sometimes come out differently than we were thinking it. So consider us tabula rasa good sir.

Sounds good then. BTW I said, "IF, I didnt like a black character and decided to say that is just as BAD as saying that about women, since both are degrading." Thanks for explaining. *extends hand

As it were, being "black" by modern social standards mostly refers to being from Africa. In other countries, it may refer to any dark skinned individual including Arabs, Aborigines and in some odd cases, even Samoans. I understand your points about geneology versus phenotype. And for those that are not aware, phenotype refers to the physical expression of genes. So things like almond eyes (Asians) or lush lips (Africans), would be examples of phenotype. As it were though, Apocalypse does have a mostly African phenotype. Lush lips, broad nose. Depending on who inks him, his skin at times even does resmble a vauge beige tone.

I'm Polynesian, heres how my folks look:

In case you didnt read my Polynesian thread, that is how real Polynesians look like, not the stereotypical media showing asians doing our stuff, sucks to see that our people are pushed back thanks to it. And I mean pure or almost pure Polys, not mixies. But thats a different topic and I digress.

Apocalypse could be polynesian for that matter, since he matches all of those phenotype characteristics according to that logic, but I think I know what you are saying. I personally like the big nose version.

In regards to Egypt and Africa however....the continent may house numerous nations, but the ethnic composition is unified. Africa is often viewed as being "black." Though, it is not always the case that continental region is an expression of phenotype or other ethnic factors. The Maylay for instance are often considered Asian, because of their phenotype. However, regionally, they are not Asian. An Indian from India however, is technically Asian (South-East Asian). So I know full well the argument you are making. But in the case of Egypt, I am inclined to side with the idea that ancient Egyptians are indeed "black" by the most common association with the word (of dark skin and African descent). Even ancient Egyptian art has them depicting themselves as being of a dark complexion.

So you are judging this based on a phenotypical reasons, am I correct? Also, skin is not a good way of distinguishing such things, as I have seen Indians darker than most black people.

We can see how pale she is, especially compared to the way that the Egyptians depict themselves in their own ancient art. You can see why it is quite reasonable to define Egyptians as "black." Especially in comparison to your Arab parallels. Moving on from this thought though....

They can get blacks from the other parts of Africa, and use them as slaves or maids. They did this to the Jews.

Those are just ones I can personally name off the top of my head. If you go to http://www.blacksuperhero.com they have an entire list by with publishers, of black characters in the comic industry. It makes my list look pitiful. But my list is at least an example. We are not as ignored in some regards. Black characters exist...they just aren't always headliners.

Thanks for the tips mate, and again, thanks for explaining, I personally didnt mean any offense. Sadly there aint that many blacks that are headliners.

 

[Red Mask]

For those who live in Philadelphia, check out University of Penn's Museum of Archeology and Anthropology. If you look at some of the statues of Ancient Egyptians you'll notice they have African facial features.

 

[Arach Knight]

It is quite alright man. People are bound to clash. This is the internet after all. Opinions will collide and the occasional feeling will be hurt. But I try not to get all butt hurt over small things. Everybody can disagree and still be civil. Or they can have a misunderstanding (like we did). You after all did respond to my Emma Frost 2.0 thread, and maintained the same stance, without the questionable phrasing. So everything is fine. And for that matter, Apocalypse could very well be a number of ethnic variants, based on phenotype alone. He could be Brazilian, Aboriginal, Dominican etc. Some of those are of African descent (non-native, slave ancestory Brazilians), and some are not (Aboriginals). But given that the comic books have stated Apocalypse to be Egyptian, we can summise that he was a black Egyptian.

I believe his current altered appearence is the result of his exposure to the Celestial technology that provides him the bulk of his other powers. As a mutant, he is only an Eternal (a group of immortal mutants, like Cannon Ball for instance). But with the Celestial tech, he gains the other powers like shape shifting etc. So that may be why he has lost skin tone related phenotypes. By the by, I must applaud the thought you have put into this discussion. First Herr Logan surprises me by intergrating philosophy into his over view of Peter Parker (another thread) and then you use biology to approach a character like Apocalypse. For every person that saddens me on this forum....there are people like you Supervenom, who use some note worthy degree of intelligence.

 

[SuperVenom]

It is quite alright man. People are bound to clash. This is the internet after all. Opinions will collide and the occasional feeling will be hurt. But I try not to get all butt hurt over small things. Everybody can disagree and still be civil. Or they can have a misunderstanding (like we did). You after all did respond to my Emma Frost 2.0 thread, and maintained the same stance, without the questionable phrasing. So everything is fine. And for that matter, Apocalypse could very well be a number of ethnic variants, based on phenotype alone. He could be Brazilian, Aboriginal, Dominican etc. Some of those are of African descent (non-native, slave ancestory Brazilians), and some are not (Aboriginals). But given that the comic books have stated Apocalypse to be Egyptian, we can summise that he was a black Egyptian.

I believe his current altered appearence is the result of his exposure to the Celestial technology that provides him the bulk of his other powers. As a mutant, he is only an Eternal (a group of immortal mutants, like Cannon Ball for instance). But with the Celestial tech, he gains the other powers like shape shifting etc. So that may be why he has lost skin tone related phenotypes. By the by, I must applaud the thought you have put into this discussion. First Herr Logan surprises me by intergrating philosophy into his over view of Peter Parker (another thread) and then you use biology to approach a character like Apocalypse. For every person that saddens me on this forum....there are people like you Supervenom, who use some note worthy degree of intelligence.

Why thanks for the kind words mate. At least someone here knows what I am talking about in regards to phenotype vs genealogy matters. I have to admit I was the type of person that said, "If it looks black, it's black" and I obviously didn't know that even Melanesians are closer to Asians than Africans in genetics.

I understand your point on the Egypt and Africa deal, but I personally cannot summarise my ideas on him being either Black or Arab, since we do not know how it was back then or not. It's not that it matters what he is, but when we start to put him into a group of some sort, I tend to be careful.

For example, there are Blacks that claim that they had sovereignty in the United States, meaning Hawai'i. If you look at the queen, yes she may have some features and stuff, but when they claim stuff like that it kind of gets people infuriated if you know what I mean. In the case of Africans and Hawaiians, I do not get as mad as others, but there are some that just get pissed. So this is why I am careful when putting poeple in a group.

 

[Arach Knight]

- This is an ammended version of my earlier list of black comic characters. I left out two people and I honestly don't know how I could have. They are both fairly well known

-Mr.Terrific (DC)
-Luke Cage (Marvel)
-Storm (Marvel)
-Apocalypse (Marvel)
-Blade (Marvel)
-Cardiac (Marvel)
-Prowler (Marvel)
-Black Panther (Marvel)
-Bishop (Marvel)
-Green Lantern (John Stewart) (DC)
-Steel (DC)
-Bloodwynd (DC)
-Askari The Spear (Marvel)
-Spawn (Image)
-Chapel (Image)
-Hammer and Anvil (Hammer is black) (Marvel)
-Tombstone (Albino, but black) (Marvel)
-Warmachine (Marvel)
-Deathlok (Marvel)

-I don't know why anybody who is black, would claim Hawaiin heritage unless they have a Hawaiin in their family. Hawaiin's are Asian...I always figured that was common knowledge. But, some people have taken afrocentricity to new lengths. Usually the kind that lay claim to more history than necessary. I think it is some attempt at regaining a degree of respect that slavery has robbed us of. But I don't buy into most of that. I am black and my father is a South African raised in Kenya. I have a proud enough history. I have no need to rob others of theirs, to make mine seem greater. That, is taking it too far, by my measure.

 

[SuperVenom]

- This is an ammended version of my earlier list of black comic characters. I left out two people and I honestly don't know how I could have. They are both fairly well known

-Mr.Terrific (DC)
-Luke Cage (Marvel)
-Storm (Marvel)
-Apocalypse (Marvel)
-Blade (Marvel)
-Cardiac (Marvel)
-Prowler (Marvel)
-Black Panther (Marvel)
-Bishop (Marvel)
-Green Lantern (John Stewart) (DC)
-Steel (DC)
-Bloodwynd (DC)
-Askari The Spear (Marvel)
-Spawn (Image)
-Chapel (Image)
-Hammer and Anvil (Hammer is black) (Marvel)
-Tombstone (Albino, but black) (Marvel)
-Warmachine (Marvel)
-Deathlok (Marvel)

O my how could I forget Spawn. He was one of my favorite characters, the best back then IMO. One of the biggest black figures out there, that is if people knew he was black.

-I don't know why anybody who is black, would claim Hawaiin heritage unless they have a Hawaiin in their family. Hawaiin's are Asian...I always figured that was common knowledge. But, some people have taken afrocentricity to new lengths. Usually the kind that lay claim to more history than necessary. I think it is some attempt at regaining a degree of respect that slavery has robbed us of. But I don't buy into most of that. I am black and my father is a South African raised in Kenya. I have a proud enough history. I have no need to rob others of theirs, to make mine seem greater. That, is taking it too far, by my measure.

Very good points. Everyone has their own history and should be proud of that. But I have to correct you on one of your points. First Hawaiians are not asian. The reason why you thinkthey are asian is because there was the plantation era in which the Americans brough Asians from all over asia, the Phillipines, Korea, and prior to that the Chinese before they banned them from ever coming here. This is why a lot of Hawaiians look asian because it is just that, they are mixed. It is hard to find a pure Hawaiian at all, and when you do they do not look asian at all. I dunno if you could see my pictures, but they have no asian features at all.

Polynesians (which Hawaiians are in case you didn't know) in theory the forebears are from South East Asia, which then went through Melanesia (such as Vanuatu, Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, etc) and mixed there. This is why we have a lot of African features, some have the hair thing going on some don't (because of the asian mix IMO), as well as some people with asian features (although I rarely see it in pure bloods). Also Polynesians are mesomorphs (meaning naturally muscular), of course again talking about the pure ones again. Many of these reasons is why the afrocentrists consider them African and if I was oblivious to culture, migration patterns, and identity, I wouldn't argue.

 

[Arach Knight]

Thank you for the clairification. I have a friend who is Japanese (her father hails from Okinawa) and she has a lot of family in Hawaii. I was under the impression that there was a long running heritage with Hawaiin people being some variant of Asian.

 

[SuperVenom]

Thank you for the clairification. I have a friend who is Japanese (her father hails from Okinawa) and she has a lot of family in Hawaii. I was under the impression that there was a long running heritage with Hawaiin people being some variant of Asian.

O no mate, see thats the exact thing right there that really needs to stop, as our people are shunned away and people start seeing asians as the real Hawaiians. Glad that you know now mate BTW, heres the royal family, before it was stolen:



Don't look asian to me

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

 

[Arach Knight]

Ahh yes....everybody should be familar with the Hawaiin King, Kamehameha. Dragon Ball after all borrowed the name for one of the series most powerful attacks.

 

[SuperVenom]

Ahh yes....everybody should be familar with the Hawaiin King, Kamehameha. Dragon Ball after all borrowed the name for one of the series most powerful attacks.

Ya....sadly....and btw thats King Kamehameha the 2nd.


Back on topic, anyone have any good pics or writings on Amazon? She's pretty cool even though I have only read one episode (and it was more of a cameo).

 

[comic book girl]

The heck? I guess it adds more credibility to her being Jewish and makes Jewish people look more powerful, thats my take on that one. But I dunno whats so happy about someone suffering, especially since it was a real event.

I don't mean she was happy about suffering, she was happy there was a character created that went through what her great grandparents went through.

 

[SuperVenom]

I don't mean she was happy about suffering, she was happy there was a character created that went through what her great grandparents went through.

O ok I see.

 

[terry78]

Isn't The Rock supposed to be starring in a movie version of his life? Kamehameha, I mean.