Marvel's Black & Minority Characters: Roundtable Discussion

[terry78]

What does the Japanese mutant Sunfire have to do with all this?????

She was a mutant of color, her character wasn't all that developed, and she was written out of the series, similar to her earlier male counterpart, that's what.

 

[megawatt]

A quick note...a long project at work plus a long Labor Day holiday = latecomer to this thread. With that said I apologize if I repeat something that someone else has said previously because I skimmed through the posts but did not read all of them as throughly as I normally do.

I have ranted against the nit-picking fanboys who sometimes run rabid on this board but truth be told, they are sometimes the last defense against Hollywood dumbasses who would ruin one comic book character after another. Since Storm is my favorite comic book character, I will use her as an example. I could overlook the blue eyes/contact issue and I really was disappointed with Halle's weak then non existent accent in the films. That being said, one of the problems that I saw in the X-films is that
the writer/director either did not know the character or chose to ignore her background completely. I am not going to turn this into a "I hate Bryan Singer" thread but when he commented on Storm in the Superheroes and Villains special broadcast on A&E (correct me if I am wrong) he said Storm was "sexy"....well duh ....just about every woman in comics is sexy but Storm is not your generic sex kitten heroine. She has one of the deepest, well developed backgrounds complete with flaws. Out of all of that, Singer could only come up with...."she was sexy." That told me all I needed to know about his approach to the character and why she was given a two dimensional role in the films.

She is the earth mother, loving and giving. I like that part of her character but tell me how in the hell a woman so beautiful and so giving couldn't buy a seemingly happy relationship until recently (in the comics). Forge/Storm has been over sooo long ago it's not worth mentioning.

As far as the movie goes and the rumored relationship between Storm and Wolverine, I say go for it because as an avid RoLo fan, they are kindred spirits who must constantly battle their inner demons.

I have so much more to write but right now I need to get my butt back in the lab and work on my project.
So far I am really enjoying this thread and look forward to catching up on all the posts.

Food for thought....where are the black super villains?

 

[OutcryX]

A quick note...a long project at work plus a long Labor Day holiday = latecomer to this thread. With that said I apologize if I repeat something that someone else has said previously because I skimmed through the posts but did not read all of them as throughly as I normally do.

I have ranted against the nit-picking fanboys who sometimes run rabid on this board but truth be told, they are sometimes the last defense against Hollywood dumbasses who would ruin one comic book character after another. Since Storm is my favorite comic book character, I will use her as an example. I could overlook the blue eyes/contact issue and I really was disappointed with Halle's weak then non existent accent in the films. That being said, one of the problems that I saw in the X-films is that
the writer/director either did not know the character or chose to ignore her background completely. I am not going to turn this into a "I hate Bryan Singer" thread but when he commented on Storm in the Superheroes and Villains special broadcast on A&E (correct me if I am wrong) he said Storm was "sexy"....well duh ....just about every woman in comics is sexy but Storm is not your generic sex kitten heroine. She has one of the deepest, well developed backgrounds complete with flaws. Out of all of that, Singer could only come up with...."she was sexy." That told me all I needed to know about his approach to the character and why she was given a two dimensional role in the films.

She is the earth mother, loving and giving. I like that part of her character but tell me how in the hell a woman so beautiful and so giving couldn't buy a seemingly happy relationship until recently (in the comics). Forge/Storm has been over sooo long ago it's not worth mentioning.

As far as the movie goes and the rumored relationship between Storm and Wolverine, I say go for it because as an avid RoLo fan, they are kindred spirits who must constantly battle their inner demons.

I have so much more to write but right now I need to get my butt back in the lab and work on my project.
So far I am really enjoying this thread and look forward to catching up on all the posts.

Food for thought....where are the black super villains?

Emplate is a black Super Villain

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I am not going to turn this into a "I hate Bryan Singer" thread but when he commented on Storm in the Superheroes and Villains special broadcast on A&E (correct me if I am wrong) he said Storm was "sexy"....well duh ....just about every woman in comics is sexy but Storm is not your generic sex kitten heroine. She has one of the deepest, well developed backgrounds complete with flaws. Out of all of that, Singer could only come up with...."she was sexy." That told me all I needed to know about his approach to the character and why she was given a two dimensional role in the films.

*sigh*^^^

I love this sista. up:

Excellent points Megawatt...and yes, the sexxed-up Storm we see in the films is a far cry from what the iconic character represented in the comics. Even when Storm was shown floating among the clouded elements buck-nekkid she wasn't overtly sexy, she still came across like a regal Goddess of the wind. Everything about Storm screams taste and sophistication. Halle is capable of portraying that, but that has to be the vision of the writers and directors to bring that to the screen.

I swear when Halle came down the stairs to greet Logan's return in X2 it was simply shot from that angle to draw attention to her glorious tiggle-bitties...and not much else. Storm is nothing like that.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Emplate is a black Super Villain

As well as CINO.

 

[Electrix]

I swear when Halle came down the stairs to greet Logan's return in X2 it was simply shot from that angle to draw attention to her glorious tiggle-bitties...and not much else. Storm is nothing like that.

I agree. I dont like that scene at all. Its not Storm at all but Halle with a wig.

Halle bounced down them stairs, juggling her things about and the camera shots made it so that we saw it. Singer should have had Halle come down the stair a little slower. She could have put her hand on the banister, making her look more regal.

I'm sat here on my backside and I know how Storm should be portrayed and there are people like Bryan Singer being paid millions and doing nothing.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'll tell you something else that Hollywood did with Storm that pissed me off: They cast a biracial woman (which in itself is fine) and played up her light complexion.

Storm is BLACK. Born of Africa...She's been portrayed with afrocentric features and I believe that Singer and his crew were just toooooooo scared to "go there" and create a dark-skinned action heroine that could really strike fear in the hearts of audiences.

So instead, they got a "safe-looking" biracial actress, and then powdered her skin tone to the lightest denominator.

And yet, Halle Berry herself is a black woman--complete with caramel skin tones. There's no reason for her to be as pale as she's been portrayed in X2--she was darker-complexioned in the first film!! Maybe it's just the lighting, but Halle possesses the right African features to capture Storm's look, even if she's not a dark-skinned black woman. As you can see below, with the appropriate make-up (damn, did Storm even have any make-up on in X2?) Halle is certainly not an albino by any stretch of the word.

Like I said...it's a matter of the writers' and director's focus. I hope Brett gets it right this time.

 

[Arach Knight]

Food for thought....where are the black super villains?

Apocalypse (X-Men)
Cardiac (Spider-Man)
Black Adam (Captain Marvel a.k.a Shazam)
Chapel (Spawn)
Charles Graham (Superman -- Team Luthor member)


Those are the only ones I could name off the top of my head, but I find it interesting that most of them are A list in terms of writing. Chapel killed Spawn when he was Al. Black Adam is Shazam's mainstay villain. Charles Graham has beaten Superman before and Apocalypse is of course one of the greatest villains the X-Men have ever fought. I'm sure there are tons of other black supervillains...but it would wreck my brain to flip through all my comic books and the internet to compose a list. I'm sure others can add to this list.

 

[terry78]

Now how many debates would spark if we claimed En Sabah Nur as a brotha? Never mind the "Egyptians aren't black" spiel.

 

[Arach Knight]

He has dark skin, and Egyptians are Egyptians. There could be a lot of semantics on what makes you "black." Technically, every land in Africa is a seperate nation. Nobody has to claim "blackness"...but they can all be claimed as denizens of the African continent. People who live in northern Brazil are in fact descendents of African slaves that were dropped there during the slave trade. This is how Angola was brought to Brazil and later redeveloped as what is known today as Capoeira. But most people aren't going to call Brazillians "black." It is all semantics really. So for all intents and purposes, yes, En Sabah Nur is "black."

 

[megawatt]

I'll tell you something else that Hollywood did with Storm that pissed me off: They cast a biracial woman (which in itself is fine) and played up her light complexion.

Halle being biracial did not bother me at all.
Take the second awards picture and slap the white wig on Halle and you have Storm, confident, warm with a subtle regal aura.

Yes Hollywood still has a phobia about darker skinned people....unless they need some "Super Negro" bad ass ...then they can find one.

A question about the Blade movies. How much sense did it make for Blade to completely forget about the doctor who found a developed a cure for herself, helped Whistler refine some of Blades weapons and serum? Did Karen Jensen (N'Bushe Wright) just drop off the face of the earth? Whistler miraculously recovers from a self-inflicted gunshot **cough***bull$#it***cough but she is gone ....zip zero nada! Then they learn about the new strain of vampires and no one even thinks to look up this woman with her medical training, not to mention her personal encounters with our toothy friends. Oh sorry by the way we can't even recommend she show up in the third movie because it would make too much sense to have her working with the Nighthunters. I mean she is just a doctor who was bitten by a vampire, cured herself, worked with Blade, fought along side him. Oh wait I am repeating myself. God forbid we have a strong black intelligent woman in two movies...I mean they are all over the place.

 

[Arach Knight]

That seems to be a bit of extreme nitpicking. Most super hero films tend to abandon the previous woman. When Batman Returns came out, Viki Vale was no where in sight. Maybe that is because Bruce stopped seeing her in the comic books at that time, but the film could have just gone its own route with continuity. And then what about Batman Forever and Nicole Kidman's character? Most super hero films, where the love interest isn't a consistent character (Spider-Man, Cyclops etc), wind up dumping the previous chick. Blade is a shades wearing, trench coat rocking bad ass. It would weigh down his character and marketability if suddenly he went steady. So I wouldn't chalk that one up to racism. They do it to Batman all the time for the same reason...and he is a wealthy white playboy...

 

[megawatt]

That seems to be a bit of extreme nitpicking. Most super hero films tend to abandon the previous woman. When Batman Returns came out, Viki Vale was no where in sight. Maybe that is because Bruce stopped seeing her in the comic books at that time, but the film could have just gone its own route with continuity. And then what about Batman Forever and Nicole Kidman's character? Most super hero films, where the love interest isn't a consistent character (Spider-Man, Cyclops etc), wind up dumping the previous chick. Blade is a shades wearing, trench coat rocking bad ass. It would weigh down his character and marketability if suddenly he went steady. So I wouldn't chalk that one up to racism. They do it to Batman all the time for the same reason...and he is a wealthy white playboy...

I wasn't trying to nitpick but simply give a plausible reason for Karen Jensen to reappear in the movies. I did not mean for her to show up as his love interest...just as a person he could turn to as a resource so to speak. Much like Whistler not as a replacement for Whistler but a contact if you will. As for Batman...you said it yourself...wealthy playboy.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

He has dark skin, and Egyptians are Egyptians. There could be a lot of semantics on what makes you "black." Technically, every land in Africa is a seperate nation. Nobody has to claim "blackness"...but they can all be claimed as denizens of the African continent. People who live in northern Brazil are in fact descendents of African slaves that were dropped there during the slave trade. This is how Angola was brought to Brazil and later redeveloped as what is known today as Capoeira. But most people aren't going to call Brazillians "black." It is all semantics really. So for all intents and purposes, yes, En Sabah Nur is "black."

Yeah but...it is the racist white peoples of the past that really established and determined what is truly "blackness". In the times of slavery, it didn't matter if you had no African blood in you, if you were darkskinned you were black--plain and simple. That's why, despite my biraciality, I'm considered "black"--a fact that really annoys my father because in his mind it completely dismisses my caucasian roots.

Yet it is the thinking of bigoted white folk that established the whole "one drop" standard.

 

[The Storm]

I think sometimes it depends where you live. I live in a very multicultral city, its hard to find someone who is just once race. There are a lot of mixed race/biracial people in this city and some say they are black and others say they are mixed race. Some white people see them as black this includes Asians (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladesh etc) as well as Caribbeans and Africans and others see them as half cast (hate that word) or mixed race.

But on the other hand some black people see light skinned black people as just that light skinned black people and others see them as mixed race and the latter tend to dislike them.

 

[tamron]

A question about the Blade movies. How much sense did it make for Blade to completely forget about the doctor who found a developed a cure for herself, helped Whistler refine some of Blades weapons and serum? Did Karen Jensen (N'Bushe Wright) just drop off the face of the earth?

Blame David Goyer. He said on the official Blade:Trinity message board that he didn't see a good reason to bring her back. His point of view was that Dr. Jensen's only purpose was to give the audience a lense from which to view and introduce Blade's world. That purpose served, he deemed her unnecessary in the sequels.

 

[Minisinoo]

Actually, an ancient African would be largely confused by the whole question. They belonged to (from the Mediterranean POV) the oldest civilization. They were EGYPTIAN. "Race" is a modern invention, and entirely bogus from the point of view of biology. That's not to say it doesn't exist in terms of social conceptualization, mind, simply to point out that Apocalypse would be proud of his *Egyptian* heritage, not his African heritage. There was entirely too much ethnic (and skin) variation in the ancient Mediterranean for 'race' ever to develop. There isn't even a WORD for 'race' in either Greek or Latin. The words concern ethnicity and culture (or "nomos"). And from the Roman point of view, those fair Germans to the north were just as exotic (and expensive) a slave as the black Nubians from the south. Furthermore, if one adapted to Roman "nomos" (culture), your ethnic origin wasn't that important, by the time of the Empire, or even late Republic. So we have Spanish, Celtic, Greek and other Roman emperors, and we have playwrights such as Terrence, who was a Berber from S. of Carthage -- quite 'black' by modern standards but thoroughly Roman.

Their ideas were very different from ours. For a VERY good treatment, see Frank Snowden (formerly of Howard) Blacks in Antiquity. He wrote the book (literally) on the question. He also happens to be black, in case anyone wonders.

So yeah, just providing some historic context for Apocalypse. (Never mind that Marvel's "history" for him is completely bogus and makes this historian pull out her hair.)

On another topic entirely, and going back to earlier comments, Marvel has a rather bad habit of stereotyping a lot of non-American ethnic characters, not just Indians, but the Rom (gypsies), and even Russians. There has been some improvement of late, but the problems persist.

 

[megawatt]

Actually, an ancient African would be largely confused by the whole question. They belonged to (from the Mediterranean POV) the oldest civilization. They were EGYPTIAN. "Race" is a modern invention, and entirely bogus from the point of view of biology. That's not to say it doesn't exist in terms of social conceptualization, mind, simply to point out that Apocalypse would be proud of his *Egyptian* heritage, not his African heritage. There was entirely too much ethnic (and skin) variation in the ancient Mediterranean for 'race' ever to develop. There isn't even a WORD for 'race' in either Greek or Latin. The words concern ethnicity and culture (or "nomos"). And from the Roman point of view, those fair Germans to the north were just as exotic (and expensive) a slave as the black Nubians from the south. Furthermore, if one adapted to Roman "nomos" (culture), your ethnic origin wasn't that important, by the time of the Empire, or even late Republic. So we have Spanish, Celtic, Greek and other Roman emperors, and we have playwrights such as Terrence, who was a Berber from S. of Carthage -- quite 'black' by modern standards but thoroughly Roman.

Their ideas were very different from ours. For a VERY good treatment, see Frank Snowden (formerly of Howard) Blacks in Antiquity. He wrote the book (literally) on the question. He also happens to be black, in case anyone wonders.

So yeah, just providing some historic context for Apocalypse. (Never mind that Marvel's "history" for him is completely bogus and makes this historian pull out her hair.)

On another topic entirely, and going back to earlier comments, Marvel has a rather bad habit of stereotyping a lot of non-American ethnic characters, not just Indians, but the Rom (gypsies), and even Russians. There has been some improvement of late, but the problems persist.

/AGREE!!!!

American racial ideas and mythology ...yes I meant mythology has screwed up so many peoples' perception of themselves not to mention others both historically and in the current culture.

Oh and could someone fill me in on who the guy was that defeated Apocolypse in the House of M Black Panther issue. I believe his name is/was
Black Bolt but I don't know anything about him.

 

[Arach Knight]

Black Bolt is the leader of the Inhumans. He is married to Medusa and Crystal is his sister in law. He has a quasi-sonic scream power (sort of like Banshee, but far more destructive). The power is fueled by absoring energy from the environment. This absorption also allows him flight, super human strength and a slew of other abilities. You may best remember him from the old 90's Fantastic Four cartoon.

 

[Bluefire]

Risque is/was Native American. cool character that was Proudstar's girlfriend...until they killed her

risque is/was cuban. and while i agree native people are quite an under appreciated race, i think we should just stick with the topic this thread has started.

 

[Bluefire]

I'll tell you something else that Hollywood did with Storm that pissed me off: They cast a biracial woman (which in itself is fine) and played up her light complexion.

Storm is BLACK. Born of Africa...She's been portrayed with afrocentric features and I believe that Singer and his crew were just toooooooo scared to "go there" and create a dark-skinned action heroine that could really strike fear in the hearts of audiences.

So instead, they got a "safe-looking" biracial actress, and then powdered her skin tone to the lightest denominator.

And yet, Halle Berry herself is a black woman--complete with caramel skin tones. There's no reason for her to be as pale as she's been portrayed in X2--she was darker-complexioned in the first film!! Maybe it's just the lighting, but Halle possesses the right African features to capture Storm's look, even if she's not a dark-skinned black woman. As you can see below, with the appropriate make-up (damn, did Storm even have any make-up on in X2?) Halle is certainly not an albino by any stretch of the word.

Like I said...it's a matter of the writers' and director's focus. I hope Brett gets it right this time.

but if that were the case, wouldn't they force halle to wear the blue contacts?

 

[spider-jide]

He has dark skin, and Egyptians are Egyptians. There could be a lot of semantics on what makes you "black." Technically, every land in Africa is a seperate nation. Nobody has to claim "blackness"...but they can all be claimed as denizens of the African continent. People who live in northern Brazil are in fact descendents of African slaves that were dropped there during the slave trade. This is how Angola was brought to Brazil and later redeveloped as what is known today as Capoeira. But most people aren't going to call Brazillians "black." It is all semantics really. So for all intents and purposes, yes, En Sabah Nur is "black."

To cement this a tad further, how old is Apocalypse, roughly? People need to understand that Egypt was inhabited by black people with skin tones as dark as the night sky even up to and surpassing the time of Moses. If Apocalypse is centuries old or whatever, this establishes him as being a black man.

 

[Arach Knight]

Indeed many denizens of Africa are dark of skin. In fact, the Moores who ruled over spain until the late 1400's, were in fact black muslims who hailed from the northern region of Africa (Egypt is in northern Africa). So it is very possible for Apocalypse to be black.

 

[terry78]

I've always figured he was black, if not by his egyptian roots, but by his facial structure. But I know there are dozens upon dozens of fanboys who would retort with, "He's not black!" for the usual reasons.

 

[OutcryX]

risque is/was cuban. and while i agree native people are quite an under appreciated race, i think we should just stick with the topic this thread has started.

Risque was Cuban Seminole, which makes her part native american. I knew what i was talking about.