Days of Future Past Matthew Vaughn Is NOT Helming X-Men: First Class Sequel

[JP]

The scene in X3 where Charles and Logan argue over Jean's mind is a perfect door into Xavier's own mind.

Xavier: "I chose the lesser of two evils."

Logan: "Well, it sounds like Jean had no choice at all."

The above along with every other motif leading up to the Xavier/Jean showdown make for the most emotional & dramatic event in the OT.

The guy feels responsible for what she's become & throws himself into the fire - only to ironically still be given a chance for escape by her - that he brilliantly refuses - getting killed in the process.

It showcases both how selfish he could be & how heroic he can be.

That's why I don't dislike X3.

That's why I don't dislike that one aspect of X3... LOL

 

[Nerial]

X3 is definitely canon.

X-Men First Class alludes to it constantly.

I hadn't picked up on what X-Maniac brought up though until now, which again - only adds more to the connections between the characters from that film and First Class.

I'm still baffled that some people wanna believe First Class ignores it. It doesn't.

Hell, the only discrepancy between films is the appearance by a middle-aged Moira during a few 2-second scenes in X3.

You need to give examples of this. With the exception of the "Cerebro Tracker" which includes all the movies no matter what, I see XM:FC trying its hardest to stay completely clear of X3, even of the point of avoiding some of its key aspects:

1) As you've already pointed out, Moira. Moira in X3 is not the same Moira in XM:FC, and it's hard to imagine that Charles happens to know two Moira's that are both mutant-supporters.

2) The whole opening sequence. And this can be broken down into a couple examples.
A) Charles is walking. You could argue that in the comics, Charles has moments when he is walking--got some temporary spinal cord injury cure (which, in my opinion, has always been ridiculous), but in the end, X3 has him walking as a middle-aged man while XM:FC has him injured in his late twenties.
B) Magneto hasn't gone "to the dark-side yet." The fact that Charles and Erik are sitll buddies at the beginning of X3--again as middle-aged men--totally contradicts XM:FC. Magneto would never be there after turning to his quest to destroy mankind.

3) Charles' characterization. I know what they were going for in X3--they were trying to show that Charles isn't this saintly person X1 and X2 had shown him to be. The problem with this is that in X1 and X2, that's who he was shown to be. The comic universe (which I don't follow and don't care for) can show him however they want, but in the movie universe, he was never displayed as a manipulating person until X3. And it felt like a 180 in his personality when they did that. So if he's that way in the comics, fine. But in the movie universe--except for the failed attempt in X3--he's never been shown as a manipulator, except for hitting on girls in bars. Which was funny, and light-hearted. Scrambling Jean's brain...yeah, that's just wrong.

There are contradictions with the other two movies as well--don't get me wrong. Charles says in X1 that he met Erik when he was 17, and that Erik helped him build Cerebro. But that was a two-second narration; X3's entire plotline contradicts XM:FC because in X3, Charles' first encounter with Jean cannot be canon. The whole thing falls apart.

And why wouldn't it? Even Singer said there's not one thing he liked about X3; I can't blame him for trying to erase that little stain on the X-men movie universe.

 

[X-Maniac]

You need to give examples of this. With the exception of the "Cerebro Tracker" which includes all the movies no matter what, I see XM:FC trying its hardest to stay completely clear of X3, even of the point of avoiding some of its key aspects:

1) As you've already pointed out, Moira. Moira in X3 is not the same Moira in XM:FC, and it's hard to imagine that Charles happens to know two Moira's that are both mutant-supporters.

2) The whole opening sequence. And this can be broken down into a couple examples.
A) Charles is walking. You could argue that in the comics, Charles has moments when he is walking--got some temporary spinal cord injury cure (which, in my opinion, has always been ridiculous), but in the end, X3 has him walking as a middle-aged man while XM:FC has him injured in his late twenties.
B) Magneto hasn't gone "to the dark-side yet." The fact that Charles and Erik are sitll buddies at the beginning of X3--again as middle-aged men--totally contradicts XM:FC. Magneto would never be there after turning to his quest to destroy mankind.

3) Charles' characterization. I know what they were going for in X3--they were trying to show that Charles isn't this saintly person X1 and X2 had shown him to be. The problem with this is that in X1 and X2, that's who he was shown to be. The comic universe (which I don't follow and don't care for) can show him however they want, but in the movie universe, he was never displayed as a manipulating person until X3. And it felt like a 180 in his personality when they did that. So if he's that way in the comics, fine. But in the movie universe--except for the failed attempt in X3--he's never been shown as a manipulator, except for hitting on girls in bars. Which was funny, and light-hearted. Scrambling Jean's brain...yeah, that's just wrong.

There are contradictions with the other two movies as well--don't get me wrong. Charles says in X1 that he met Erik when he was 17, and that Erik helped him build Cerebro. But that was a two-second narration; X3's entire plotline contradicts XM:FC because in X3, Charles' first encounter with Jean cannot be canon. The whole thing falls apart.

And why wouldn't it? Even Singer said there's not one thing he liked about X3; I can't blame him for trying to erase that little stain on the X-men movie universe.

Well, yes..and no...

X-Men: The Last Stand is more than a little stain. It was a blockbuster production with strong box office earnings (despite a big drop on its second weekend). It wasn't some small-scale, low-key affair that's slid into the shadows.

I have no problem with people who want to ignore some or all of The Last Stand, and no problem with the studio or producers if they say they are disregarding some or all of it.

I agree Xavier was not very likeable in The Last Stand, but his behaviour in being secretive and concealing the fact he had blocked off part of Jean's mind had precedence. In X2, it's revealed that he knew all along about Wolverine's past and connection to Stryker, despite acting all innocent and unknowing in X1. It shows he is a man with secrets and with his own private motives.

The other big question is: Why did those involved in making The Last Stand allow/approve/include all the things that people on here dislike so much? What were they thinking at the time? Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg must have known what they were writing. And what about the people such as executives and producers who had also been involved with the previous two films, and were thus familiar with the storyline and Singer's original intentions? What were they doing while The Last Stand was being scripted and filmed? Why didn't those people ensure that The Last Stand was more in keeping with the previous two films? Was it all down to Ratner? Did he just do whatever the hell he wanted? Why did everyone just allow this gigantic production to carry on rolling along with all the things that have caused upset among fans (Cyclops dying, Rogue being cured, Magneto dumping Mystique, etc)...

To cry about it now seems a bit too late. Those involved should have been more thoughtful at the time it was made.

 

[Angamb]

WHEN will this discussion end???

LOL

 

[Majik1387]

The other big question is: Why did those involved in making The Last Stand allow/approve/include all the things that people on here dislike so much? What were they thinking at the time?

The amount of studio involvement and ego is why X3 was such a ****ty mess of a film. While X2 evolved from X1, X3 devolved every character and was all over the place.

 

[Nerial]

Well, yes..and no...

X-Men: The Last Stand is more than a little stain. It was a blockbuster production with strong box office earnings (despite a big drop on its second weekend). It wasn't some small-scale, low-key affair that's slid into the shadows.

I have no problem with people who want to ignore some or all of The Last Stand, and no problem with the studio or producers if they say they are disregarding some or all of it.

I agree Xavier was not very likeable in The Last Stand, but his behaviour in being secretive and concealing the fact he had blocked off part of Jean's mind had precedence. In X2, it's revealed that he knew all along about Wolverine's past and connection to Stryker, despite acting all innocent and unknowing in X1. It shows he is a man with secrets and with his own private motives.

The other big question is: Why did those involved in making The Last Stand allow/approve/include all the things that people on here dislike so much? What were they thinking at the time? Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg must have known what they were writing. And what about the people such as executives and producers who had also been involved with the previous two films, and were thus familiar with the storyline and Singer's original intentions? What were they doing while The Last Stand was being scripted and filmed? Why didn't those people ensure that The Last Stand was more in keeping with the previous two films? Was it all down to Ratner? Did he just do whatever the hell he wanted? Why did everyone just allow this gigantic production to carry on rolling along with all the things that have caused upset among fans (Cyclops dying, Rogue being cured, Magneto dumping Mystique, etc)...

To cry about it now seems a bit too late. Those involved should have been more thoughtful at the time it was made.

Now, these are some excellent points. The situation in X2 is a good point, and does show Xavier being secretive and thinking he knows best. It's the same character trait he has in XM:FC with Raven; it's a great character flaw, and edges on the morality border when it comes to his actions in X2 by keeping that info from Logan.


I will still argue that him telepathically manipulating Jean's brain is a moral
step too far and out of character even if he felt like it was for the greater good--one of the main reasons being that we NEVER, EVER get to see the ultimate reason why he made this tough decision. Yeah, Jean is clearly an angsty teen when he meets her at the beginning of X3, but...what teenager isn't? That's the only clue we get that he was protecting her and others by doing this horrible and violating thing. And it can be argued that BECAUSE he did this, the "Dark Phoenix" was able to come forth with such power. After all, Logan says, "sometimes when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry."


Poor storytelling. If they were going that direction with his character, they should have explained it much better or left out it entirely. Most morally questionable actions can be empathized by an audience if they can see why the character did what they did. Like Magneto sending the missiles back to the navy ships. I don't agree with it, but I see why he did it.


As for why X3 was allowed to exist...well, that is the question. I think Majik has a great point that arrogance played a big factor. Like George Lucas creating his "masterpiece" with Episode I--he rushed through the script to get to the big, cool explosion stuff, and failed to create realistic characters and decent dialogue. Hopefully, this won't happen again.

 

[Nerial]

WHEN will this discussion end???

LOL

Until we drive you to the point of utter madness. Muhahaha!

 

[X-Maniac]

WHEN will this discussion end???

LOL

I don't think it will ever end but, in fairness, this latest mention of it arose from the discussion of characterisations in the First Class franchise and whether they contradict/ignore those in the original films. Particularly in regard to Xavier's rather idealistic approach.

 

[X-Maniac]

Now, these are some excellent points. The situation in X2 is a good point, and does show Xavier being secretive and thinking he knows best. It's the same character trait he has in XM:FC with Raven; it's a great character flaw, and edges on the morality border when it comes to his actions in X2 by keeping that info from Logan.


I will still argue that him telepathically manipulating Jean's brain is a moral
step too far and out of character even if he felt like it was for the greater good--one of the main reasons being that we NEVER, EVER get to see the ultimate reason why he made this tough decision. Yeah, Jean is clearly an angsty teen when he meets her at the beginning of X3, but...what teenager isn't? That's the only clue we get that he was protecting her and others by doing this horrible and violating thing. And it can be argued that BECAUSE he did this, the "Dark Phoenix" was able to come forth with such power. After all, Logan says, "sometimes when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry."


Poor storytelling. If they were going that direction with his character, they should have explained it much better or left out it entirely. Most morally questionable actions can be empathized by an audience if they can see why the character did what they did. Like Magneto sending the missiles back to the navy ships. I don't agree with it, but I see why he did it.

I agree it would have been better if we saw Jean do something terrible that necessitated the mental blocks being put in.

But, overall, the impression gained of Xavier in the films is that he is idealistic - and so determined for mankind to accept mutants that he doesn't want any threat to his dream, such as Jean's immense (and possibly unmanageable) power and Raven's natural blue, scaly form. He seems keen to portray mutants as being as normal as humans, as just like everyone else. To the extent of being a control freak.

It's for that reason that the more 'freakish' mutants tend to side with Magneto, as seen in X1, X2 and X3. Those unusual-looking mutants believe they will never be accepted into normal society and thus are more likely to want to rebel against authority and fight for their rights. In the comics, a whole group of outcast mutants (many of them abnormal-looking) even took to living in the sewers and became the Morlocks, who were represented in X3 as the omega mutants who joined Magneto.

Xavier has hardly any of the more bizarre mutants at the school. Only Beast - and he was already there before he turned blue and furry. Will Xavier ever welcome the more conspicuous mutants into his school or do they pose too much of a threat to his dream of normality and fitting in with the rest of society?

 

[BestGirl]

I certainly hope Xavier would take in more conspicuous mutants. Failure to do so would push him from well-intentioned controller to complete a-hole, and that's not the vibe I got from him in First Class.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

I like to see a bunch of innocent mutants get wiped out/killed and it be because of Xavier/Magneto and it get ignored by the mass media or covered up.

So far, the issue of collateral damage to what is going on and why the X-Men in the future are so secretive is still up in the air. We understand why they don't trust the govt. but Xavier was still idealistic enough to think, "risking their lives" meant something.

I want them to use the 60s backdrop that drive home the idea of them as third-class citizens and use the uglier mutants like the Morlocks to do it.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

First Class Xavier was great for many reasons, but a big one is that, while he is so intelligent and optimistic, he's also incredibly naive. I don't think he realized that he was holding Raven back, and he certainly didn't realize that Erik was using him as a means of getting at Shaw and starting a revolution. But Xavier is naturally manipulative, whether he realizes it or not. It's suggested he telepathically screwed with his family as a child so they either believed Raven was a part of their family or that she didn't exist at all. He has good intentions, but the way he goes about many things is a bit twisted - this speaks for Stewart's Xavier and the comicbook Xavier. Stewart's Xavier didn't mentally force Wolverine to join the team, but he bribed him into it by saying he'd help him find his, Wolverine's, past. That's manipulation. It made sense to me that he mentally "fixed" Jean in The Last Stand. I hate the film, but I feel that the roots were there for a very good Phoenix storyline. He sent her powers as well as her primal other personality, the Phoenix, to her unconscious. He manipulated her because he feared she could uncontrollably destroy people, cities or the world. He was protecting the world - and Jean - the only way he knew how; manipulation. I love that there's this side to him. I'm hoping, in one the First Class sequels, that Erik confronts Charles and explains to him that he and Erik aren't so different afterall. The "bad" guy is a manipulator and so is the "good" guy. And I think that would shock the naive Charles.

 

[JP]

Also the fact that he reads Logan's mind yet doesn't tell him anything about what he finds.

 

[marvelrobbins]

X2 strongly hinted Xavier knew full well It was stryker behind Wolverine's metal.Hell you can even make a case that maybe both Xavier and Magneto have past knowledge of Wolverine before he lost his memory.That Is why I think we can't disgard the possibilty of Wolverine showing up again In First Class sequels.

I didn't mind the portrayal of Xavier In The Last Stand.That Is true to Xavier. The problem Is the Comics have gone out of their way In recent years to portay Xavier as a ahole.Phoenix should not have been split personalty but Increased power level Xavier created blocks In jean's mind and he erased her memory.I wonder If we might get a tie In to what was being setup In x2 when Young Jean Is enventual Introuduced In the prequels.

 

[Loganbabe]

They are completely different because Erik not only manipulates people, he is willing to commit genocide. He's a supremacist who would gladly build concentration/death camps for humans if he happened to rule the world as its dictator.

Charles of course has flaws. Oh, surprise! He has a very complex power which allows him to enter other people's minds and change their thoughts and manipulate them, and he probably relied on it in difficult moments when he had to make difficult decisions - not because it was something incredibly pleasurable for him to do, playing mind control with people because it's oh so fun. But considering his amount of power he has an amazing, brutal control over it, because no matter how morally superior we all want to be (specially when we're not into Charles' shoes, so it's easy to judge and condemn him for "abusing his powers"), controlling people is incredibly tempting. You know it is.

Now, compare Charles to a guy who didn't think twice about killing one of his own kind just to showcase power makes no sense at all. But First Class started the notion that Magneto could actually be the de facto hero of the X-Men movieverse, and judging by Kinberg's interview this is kind of what I expect to happen in the sequel. Unfortunately, because then I wonder what Charles' role will be.

 

[JP]

They are completely different because Erik not only manipulates people, he is willing to commit genocide. He's a supremacist who would gladly build concentration/death camps for humans if he happened to rule the world as its dictator.

But that's because Magneto is the villain and Xavier is the hero. Still, they have many things in common and that can't be denied. It's really no different then, say, Batman and the Joker. Yes, Batman is the hero and the Joker is a psychopath, but the parallels between them run deep.

Charles of course has flaws. Oh, surprise!

No one is surprised, every character has flaws. Though I think one of the major problems with the character was that for many years he had no flaws, and that is what made him absolutely boring - - much like Superman, but unlike McAvoy's brilliant portrayal.

He has a very complex power which allows him to enter other people's minds and change their thoughts and manipulate them, and he probably relied on it in difficult moments when he had to make difficult decisions - not because it was something incredibly pleasurable for him to do, playing mind control with people because it's oh so fun.

No one once said he found pleasure in his manipulation. I think you're just reading what you want to read.

But First Class started the notion that Magneto could actually be the de facto hero of the X-Men movieverse, and judging by Kinberg's interview this is kind of what I expect to happen in the sequel. Unfortunately, because then I wonder what Charles' role will be.

First Class obviously shows the birth of a villain. Did we watch the same movie?

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Why did everyone just allow this gigantic production to carry on rolling along with all the things that have caused upset among fans (Cyclops dying, Rogue being cured, Magneto dumping Mystique, etc)...

Simple catch all answer to this question...the studio wanted to keep to that release date, in order to compete with, and outdo Singer's SR at the BO, so it was a feud caused by their disagreements and his resultant defection.
Cyclops jumped ship to do SR, and I have read that Rogue and Mystique were busy with other movies at the time, and could only film for short periods.
The studio wouldn't budge from the release date due to the feud with Singer, so would not accomodate the actor's schedules.

So, they all had to be written in such a way as to be cameo roles.
Also, in regards to Rogue's choice to take the cure, they did film that alternate scene where she didn't, but, of course with the final shot of Magneto playing chess, they also left in the notion that the character's powers were merely surpressed(as Beast also explained), and could return. So, if they wanted to make an X-Men 4, they could have Rogue's powers return, and it would of course be more interesting dramatically for her to have made that choice, only to have it taken away from her again.

But the final lesson here is, if you let personal vendettas and feuds get in the way of the work, everyone suffers.

 

[Mrs Vimes]

But, overall, the impression gained of Xavier in the films is that he is idealistic - and so determined for mankind to accept mutants that he doesn't want any threat to his dream, such as Jean's immense (and possibly unmanageable) power and Raven's natural blue, scaly form.

I think though that, initially, Charles' motivation regarding Raven was nothing more complicated than simply the desire to keep her safe. Before he meets Moira, and then Erik and Hank and the rest, it's basically just him and Raven; the notion of many others of his kind being out there is only theoretical. And while at Oxford Charles doesn't seem to be on a mission to find other mutants and concoct some grand plan or dream for his race.

 

[X-Maniac]

Simple catch all answer to this question...the studio wanted to keep to that release date, in order to compete with, and outdo Singer's SR at the BO, so it was a feud caused by their disagreements and his resultant defection.
Cyclops jumped ship to do SR, and I have read that Rogue and Mystique were busy with other movies at the time, and could only film for short periods.
The studio wouldn't budge from the release date due to the feud with Singer, so would not accomodate the actor's schedules.

So, they all had to be written in such a way as to be cameo roles.
Also, in regards to Rogue's choice to take the cure, they did film that alternate scene where she didn't, but, of course with the final shot of Magneto playing chess, they also left in the notion that the character's powers were merely surpressed(as Beast also explained), and could return. So, if they wanted to make an X-Men 4, they could have Rogue's powers return, and it would of course be more interesting dramatically for her to have made that choice, only to have it taken away from her again.

But the final lesson here is, if you let personal vendettas and feuds get in the way of the work, everyone suffers.

Yes, I believe that all had something to do with it. But it still leaves the issue of why those actors' limited availability and limited screentime was not better used. Rogue could have not taken the cure (as the alternate scene shows), Cyclops could have not died, and Magneto could have shown a bit more remorse over the curing of Mystique.

I'm not one of the embittered haters of X-Men: The Last Stand - in fact I think the action scenes were exciting and the special effects very well done with no sign of being hurried - but I hope that those involved with it have learned their lessons. It would be great to read the inside story of what happened some day.

Unfortunately for Singer, his eagerness to do Superman didn't exactly work out too well either. An overly expensive production, a flawed plot and an excessive reverence to the Donner films are very apparent, despite the fact he clearly put his heart and soul into it.

No one came out very well from this whole experience. I hope now that the First Class franchise is a far more stable affair and that multiple films are mapped out at this stage. Even if those future films never come to pass, the pre-planned storylines could still be used in comic or cartoon versions just to finish the story. It's vital for this First Class franchise to have a structure, a consistency, and I hope the studio is listening to this. This one-film-at-a-time approach doesn't exactly create the best possible seamless saga.

Fox needs to be conscious of what has happened with the Avengers franchise (by which I am including the solo lead-up films) and the Dark Knight franchise, for examples of how to make a coherent series.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Yes, I believe that all had something to do with it. But it still leaves the issue of why those actors' limited availability and limited screentime was not better used. Rogue could have not taken the cure (as the alternate scene shows), Cyclops could have not died, and Magneto could have shown a bit more remorse over the curing of Mystique.

I never understood why people thought Rogue should not take the cure, like she was betraying her mutanthood or whatever. I think that was a special case, where her power was more of a disability than anything else, a power that would make her utterly miserable.
It's not like she was gonna be able to use that power in the field much, sure, she took Pyro's power and saved those cops, but it was not a power that, on it's own, would serve well in the field really, without putting her in incredible danger, that's why they gave her MsMarvel's powers in the books/cartoons.

I would have encouraged her to take the cure, she would have had a very unhappy life with the way she was, and it's not like she had any other powers, like the Rogue in the books/comics, where you could have said, well, you will be giving up the chance to save lives. Even then, I would have encouraged the Rogue of the MsMarvel powers to take the cure as well, she would have been miserable as well.

I think Magneto's attitude to a de-powered Mystique was in character from what we saw in the previous two movies, as was her payback betrayal.
Mystique wasn't only betraying Magneto, she was betraying that whole army of mutants.

Both instances showed how much their loyalty and 'friendship' was based on mutant-power, unlike the X-Men, who have regular friendships like normal people, that are not based on their mutant gifts.

Cyclops being killed off, eh, maybe they could have put him in a coma or something, but they were not planning on making any more movies in that series(due to the high salaries the actors would demand, as well as scheduling problems now they were all big stars for the most part), and killing him off served the story, and the problem of his character's absence from the film.

edit: But aye, they could have continued the series with another actor, or actors, I guess they thought they would just reboot, rather than continue on with X4 in that continuity.

I'm not one of the embittered haters of X-Men: The Last Stand - in fact I think the action scenes were exciting and the special effects very well done with no sign of being hurried - but I hope that those involved with it have learned their lessons. It would be great to read the inside story of what happened some day.

Unfortunately for Singer, his eagerness to do Superman didn't exactly work out too well either. An overly expensive production, a flawed plot and an excessive reverence to the Donner films are very apparent, despite the fact he clearly put his heart and soul into it.

No one came out very well from this whole experience. I hope now that the First Class franchise is a far more stable affair and that multiple films are mapped out at this stage. Even if those future films never come to pass, the pre-planned storylines could still be used in comic or cartoon versions just to finish the story. It's vital for this First Class franchise to have a structure, a consistency, and I hope the studio is listening to this. This one-film-at-a-time approach doesn't exactly create the best possible seamless saga.

Fox needs to be conscious of what has happened with the Avengers franchise (by which I am including the solo lead-up films) and the Dark Knight franchise, for examples of how to make a coherent series.

Aye, I agree of course, after or just before X2 came out, Singer even said words to that effect, that , like Peter Jackson with LOTR, and he gave another example I can't recall, he thought it was important for the director to oversee the entire trilogy, that they owed that to the fans.

I'm sure he regrets jumping ship now in retrospect, hence his involvement in FC, originally to direct. FC wouldn't exist in the form it is now if he had stuck to his original plan, as Singer had plans to use the Hellfire Club, with Sigourney Weaver as Emma Frost, so, there is a bit of a 'What If?' there, as in, would you have wanted him to do that, and sacrifice FC as we know it?
But I guess Singer and Vaughn would have come up with a good alternative plot if these characters had already been used in X3, Mr Sinister or someone like that maybe.

 

[Nerial]

Wow! This debate really took off yesterday—lots of interesting opinions.

First Class Xavier was great for many reasons, but a big one is that, while he is so intelligent and optimistic, he's also incredibly naive. I don't think he realized that he was holding Raven back, and he certainly didn't realize that Erik was using him as a means of getting at Shaw and starting a revolution. But Xavier is naturally manipulative, whether he realizes it or not. It's suggested he telepathically screwed with his family as a child so they either believed Raven was a part of their family or that she didn't exist at all. He has good intentions, but the way he goes about many things is a bit twisted - this speaks for Stewart's Xavier and the comicbook Xavier. Stewart's Xavier didn't mentally force Wolverine to join the team, but he bribed him into it by saying he'd help him find his, Wolverine's, past. That's manipulation. It made sense to me that he mentally "fixed" Jean in The Last Stand. I hate the film, but I feel that the roots were there for a very good Phoenix storyline. He sent her powers as well as her primal other personality, the Phoenix, to her unconscious. He manipulated her because he feared she could uncontrollably destroy people, cities or the world. He was protecting the world - and Jean - the only way he knew how; manipulation. I love that there's this side to him. I'm hoping, in one the First Class sequels, that Erik confronts Charles and explains to him that he and Erik aren't so different afterall. The "bad" guy is a manipulator and so is the "good" guy. And I think that would shock the naive Charles.

Oh, Loganbabe is going to kill me for this…

Okay, I’m going to concede here—I asked for examples (specifically movie-based) and examples were provided by you and other users. I said previously that one of Charles’ character flaws is that he thinks he knows best for other people, and I will admit that yes, sometimes he uses manipulation to do this. Sometimes, it’s telepathically—like him manipulating his parents to allow Raven to stay in their home; he had good reason, but it’s still manipulation. He does, after all, control minds, so I guess that runs with the territory.

Another example is manipulating Oliver Platt’s character to go to Miami after Shaw (which was hilarious), and again, we understood why he did it.

I think it’s a stretch that he manipulated Logan in X1, however, but maybe there’s some weight in X2. He made a deal with Logan in X1, and agreed to help him. In X2, he justifies not telling Logan about his past because Logan can’t take it—but you get the impression that’s not 100% true. And Magneto calls him out on it (strangely enough, Magneto later defends this decision by telling Logan that “the Professor expected that you’d be smart enough to figure this out on your own. He gives you more credit that I do.” Is it sad I know that by heart?

I have to totally disagree about X3, however. Even though we later see how dangerous the Phoenix has become in the present, we never understand the essential justification besides seeing a young, angsty teenage version of Jean. And even in the beginning, Charles contradicts himself when speaking with Erik, and Erik pointed out that he could just make Jean’s parents do as he wanted, and Charles said, “That’s not my way.” And then, we find out that he scrambled Jean’s brain when she came to his school. That’s called f’ed up. And out of character.

But I think you raise some good points, and I will admit that Charles does use his telepathy to manipulate people, and also uses his charm. That’s actually something Erik and Charles have in common—they use their charm as a defense mechanism and are terrific debaters. Which is one reason why it’s fun to listen to the two of them argue—they know when the other is B.S.ing them.

But that's because Magneto is the villain and Xavier is the hero. Still, they have many things in common and that can't be denied. It's really no different then, say, Batman and the Joker. Yes, Batman is the hero and the Joker is a psychopath, but the parallels between them run deep.

This a good point. After all, one reason Charles and Erik get along so well is because they do have things in common—they’re both exceptionally powerful mutants, they’re both charming, intelligent, and are natural leaders in their own ways. And they both want prosperity for their kind, even if the ways they go about this are completely different.

Of course, that dividing trait—Magneto wanting to control or destroy mankind, and Xavier wanting integration—is kind of big. If it wasn’t for that one difference, they might have worked together for mutants instead of fighting.

No one is surprised, every character has flaws. Though I think one of the major problems with the character was that for many years he had no flaws, and that is what made him absolutely boring - - much like Superman, but unlike McAvoy's brilliant portrayal.

Okay, I see your point. But that’s such a hard line to balance, and in my opinion, something X3 and many comics have really screwed up on. The hero must hold to higher standards than the villain, so by having the hero go across moral barriers (like manipulating Jean’s mind as a child), it’s a step too far.

No one once said he found pleasure in his manipulation. I think you're just reading what you want to read.

Yeah, but a lot of users have pointed out that he’s an a-hole, and their central argument is his casual manipulation of others. So I get where Loganbabe is coming from on that one.

First Class obviously shows the birth of a villain. Did we watch the same movie?

I don’t know—I’ve gotten the impression that a lot of fans think that Magneto’s the hero of First Class. And I like Erik, but it’s annoying when Magneto gets away with murder and it’s argued and justified like crazy on the boards, but when Xavier rolls his eyes at another character, he’s condemned and called an a-hole. Kind of hypocritical.

 

[Nerial]

I agree it would have been better if we saw Jean do something terrible that necessitated the mental blocks being put in.

But, overall, the impression gained of Xavier in the films is that he is idealistic - and so determined for mankind to accept mutants that he doesn't want any threat to his dream, such as Jean's immense (and possibly unmanageable) power and Raven's natural blue, scaly form. He seems keen to portray mutants as being as normal as humans, as just like everyone else. To the extent of being a control freak.
It's for that reason that the more 'freakish' mutants tend to side with Magneto, as seen in X1, X2 and X3. Those unusual-looking mutants believe they will never be accepted into normal society and thus are more likely to want to rebel against authority and fight for their rights. In the comics, a whole group of outcast mutants (many of them abnormal-looking) even took to living in the sewers and became the Morlocks, who were represented in X3 as the omega mutants who joined Magneto.
Xavier has hardly any of the more bizarre mutants at the school. Only Beast - and he was already there before he turned blue and furry. Will Xavier ever welcome the more conspicuous mutants into his school or do they pose too much of a threat to his dream of normality and fitting in with the rest of society?

I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one. There are many X-men that have mutant traits, including Cyclops (wearing that strange visor, it’s pretty obvious he’s a mutant), Storm’s hair, Beast, Nightcrawler, Angel, to name a few. If Charles was really afraid of anyone that didn’t look “normal,” then even pretty mutations would be out of the question, like Angel’s wings. And even in XM:FC, when Charles sees Hank’s beastly feet, he says, “splendid.”

He’s totally onboard with physical mutations, but I agree that with Raven, at this point in his life, he doesn’t understand what it’s like not to look normal. He thinks Raven wants to look normal and at the beginning of the movie, so does she. Maybe that has to do with Charles’ influence and her own insecurities, but he thinks that’s what she wants. She just changes her mind about it later on.

In addition, Charles has just suffered a horrible injury that SHOULD make him re-evaluate his feelings on being “normal.” Body image is one of the hardest issues for people living with spinal cord injury. Their legs will suffer lose of muscle tone and atrophy. They will spasm uncontrollably in public (spasms can knock some SCI victims right out of their wheelchairs). Above most people, Charles will understand what it’s like for others to look at you for not being normal. He will gain that empathy; he just hasn’t yet. Which I found quite interesting in XM:FC.

I’m going to argue that the "more bizarre mutants” probably side more with Magneto and the Morlocks because they have been ostracized by society and don’t believe integration is possible like the X-men do. Physically deformed mutants will be the last to be accepted, and I can understand them hating humanity. But that’s not Xavier or the X-men’s fault.

At worst, Xavier might try to shelter more bizarre students from society to protect them. And since there are people burning mutant effigies and Senators are trying to create registration acts to identify mutants…he’s actually being pretty rational with this issue.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

At worst, Xavier might try to shelter more bizarre students from society to protect them. And since there are people burning mutant effigies and Senators are trying to create registration acts to identify mutants…he’s actually being pretty rational with this issue.

Aye, in the books he gave nightcrawler his 'image inducer' to protect him, as of course, NC was about to be birned at the stake as a 'devil' when Charles found him.
But there was a story they did in one of the John Bolton/Claremont back up strips in Classic X-Men(the stories that expanded upon the events of the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne era), where Wolverine dared Nightcrawler to walk down the main street of Salem Centre with his image inducer switched off, because Logan felt he was relying on it too much, saying to him that he can't expect people to accept him if he can't accept himself.
So, some anti-mutant haters attacked him in the street, and there was a fight.
But, despite this, Nightcrawler felt liberated, because he had ended up hiding behind the image inducer, depending upon it like a crutch, and thanked Wolverine for this 'lesson he would never forget.'

So, yeah, there is an example of Charles wanting to protect the more outlandish mutants, but they, like Raven in Fc, can end up hiding from themselves as a result. It's fine to be sensible and not invite trouble, but some point, you are gonna have to make sure you are not dependant on such measures, and be prepared to brave the reality of yourself.

They should really cover that in the next movie with Xavier's teachings, so people don't get this idea that there is a ugly/pretty mutants divide, and , going back to your relevant point, if they link it in with Xavier coming to terms with him disability and body image, that would be ideal.

 

[Nerial]

Aye, in the books he gave nightcrawler his 'image inducer' to protect him, as of course, NC was about to be birned at the stake as a 'devil' when Charles found him.
But there was a story they did in one of the John Bolton/Claremont back up strips in Classic X-Men(the stories that expanded upon the events of the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne era), where Wolverine dared Nightcrawler to walk down the main street of Salem Centre with his image inducer switched off, because Logan felt he was relying on it too much, saying to him that he can't expect people to accept him if he can't accept himself.
So, some anti-mutant haters attacked him in the street, and there was a fight.
But, despite this, Nightcrawler felt liberated, because he had ended up hiding behind the image inducer, depending upon it like a crutch, and thanked Wolverine for this 'lesson he would never forget.'

So, yeah, there is an example of Charles wanting to protect the more outlandish mutants, but they, like Raven in Fc, can end up hiding from themselves as a result. It's fine to be sensible and not invite trouble, but some point, you are gonna have to make sure you are not dependant on such measures, and be prepared to brave the reality of yourself.

They should really cover that in the next movie with Xavier's teachings, so people don't get this idea that there is a ugly/pretty mutants divide, and , going back to your relevant point, if they link it in with Xavier coming to terms with him disability and body image, that would be ideal.

I think that's an excellent point. It is a nasty side effect of "hiding" from society, that you can't accept yourself.

I don't think Charles has a problem with physical mutations, but he knows those mutants are in more danger than others. Even Erik says that identification is where it starts right before everyone is rounded up, and sadly, he's right.

I am hoping they tie Charles' view of being disabled into his empathy towards others not considered "normal." But in a blockbuster sci-fi, I'm not betting on it. We'll see.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

But that's because Magneto is the villain and Xavier is the hero. Still, they have many things in common and that can't be denied. It's really no different then, say, Batman and the Joker. Yes, Batman is the hero and the Joker is a psychopath, but the parallels between them run deep.


No one is surprised, every character has flaws. Though I think one of the major problems with the character was that for many years he had no flaws, and that is what made him absolutely boring - - much like Superman, but unlike McAvoy's brilliant portrayal.

No one once said he found pleasure in his manipulation. I think you're just reading what you want to read.

First Class obviously shows the birth of a villain. Did we watch the same movie?