MCU Fight: Vision Vs. Doctor Strange

[Docker2.0]

The problem with Vision is that he's only had limited appearances, so he's had few chances to really show off. Its not even that he's weak, the few times he's been beaten have involved fairly excessive opposition. But when those are the majority of your appearances, you look like Worf.

Which is to say, Vision is plenty powerful. He just isn't powerful *enough* to win against a guy who stood toe to toe against Thanos better than anyone else.

I agree. Had we seen more of Vision, it would have been a much more interesting fight. We only seen him really 100% in Civil War and AoU and in both of those he was powerful but didn't show it enough. I just think Strange's access to different dimensions and beating someone like Dormammu is something I can't see Vision doing. Strange in a close one.

 

[HammerDown]

Vision has the intangibility, the superior speed and strength. But i think DS can outsmart and basically counter most of what Vision has to offer. He then can deliver some attacking moves that are otherworldly and basically unstoppable unless you have certain infinity stones with specific abilities which Vision simply doesn't have.

I'd say 6 out of 10 times DS would find a way.

 

[Docker2.0]

Have these guys even met in the MCU yet?

 

[HammerDown]

Strange's fight with Thanos was great but I don't know if I'd say it was better than Iron Man's fight against Thanos (and neither of them did as well as Thor did).

You can't be serious here.
Of course Doctor Strange put much more of a fight than Iron Man did. Thanos basically only used the Power Stone and his physicality to deal with IM. While against Doctor Strange he used everything at his disposal to deal with DS, the abilities of the 4 infinity stones... Just because Iron Man came up close and personal against Thanos and got a tiny drop of blood out of him doesn't mean he posed a greater threat.

And honestly even though Thor did almost took out Thanos with a fully assembled gauntlet he didn't face him 1 on 1 like Doctor Strange did. Thor caught Thanos off guard.

 

[BigThor]

You can't be serious here.
Of course Doctor Strange put much more of a fight than Iron Man did. Thanos basically only used the Power Stone and his physicality to deal with IM. While against Doctor Strange he used everything at his disposal to deal with DS, the abilities of the 4 infinity stones... Just because Iron Man came up close and personal against Thanos and got a tiny drop of blood out of him doesn't mean he posed a greater threat.

And honestly even though Thor did almost took out Thanos with a fully assembled gauntlet he didn't face him 1 on 1 like Doctor Strange did. Thor caught Thanos off guard.

Strange caught Thanos off guard as well.

 

[Batmannerism]

You seem to be saying Strange was capable of hurting/killing Thanos but chose not to. I doubt that. Like I said in my last post, he's featless when it comes to hurting characters with durability above human level. As far as we know, the spell Strange tried to use against Thanos which missed and blew up a few rocks is the most powerful offensive spell he knows.

If you're right though and Strange has a 'do no harm' hippocratic oath which even applied to Thanos - an alien on the verge of wiping out half the universe - then surely it'd also apply to a fully sentient artificial intelligence, hero and all round nice guy like Vision? Why would Strange be robophobic?

First, I'm not suggesting Strange could have beaten Thanos without using the time stone ( which Thanos himself also remarks on). I suspect even with the Time Stone Thanos' 4 stones would have been too powerful - in Dr Strange's film Kaecillius was able to escape the reverse time effect with magic, Dormammu couldn't deal with the Time loop because he has no understanding of time. Thanos could have probably used the space stone in some way to escape a loop.

Could Strange have beaten Thanos ? No, he saw 14000000 futures in which that didn't happen, so clearly no. Could he have used more lethal magic ? Possibly. Strange probably has knowledge of lethal magic but refuses to use it because of his Hippocratic oath - whereas Kaecillus had no qualms about killing.

At the same time Strange knows that Tony has to live, and Thanos has to get the Time Stone for their one in 14, 000,000 future, where they win to come true. He knows he has to lose in order for the Avengers to win later on. Maybe that restricts his choice of magic a bit, it's a possibility anyway.

Strange's fight with Thanos was great but I don't know if I'd say it was better than Iron Man's fight against Thanos (and neither of them did as well as Thor did).

Iron Man ended up in a lot worse shape, and only survived because Strange gave up the Time stone. Thor blindsided Thanos with lightning and followed up with probably the most powerful hand held weapon in the MCU, his only mistake being not going for an instantaneous kill - understandable in the circumstances.

If there was a one vs one between Vision and 4 stone Thanos I imagine he'd put up a respectable fight but ultimately lose, same as Iron Man and Strange did.

He's only been in three films and he spent Infinity War critically injured (see above)

As for the other two:

In Age of Ultron Vision held his own against Thor in a deleted scene and then he was arguably the MVP in defeating Ultron, first by burning him out of the internet, then by ragdolling him with Mjolnir and then finally by defeating Ultron Prime:

and then for bonus points he casually used his flight/speed/phasing to find and rescue Scarlet Witch from Sokovia seconds before Thor blew it to smithereens.

Disagree he's the MVP.

He does wipe out a bunch of drones and
Cutting off Ultron's Internet access was helpful. But it was a combination of Vision, Iron Man and Thor who severely damaged Ultron Prime with follow up from the Hulk and a coup de gras from Scarlet Witch.
I give him credit for destroying the last Ultron stone - although given that Black Widow and Hawkeye took out heaps of drones, so that's not all that impressive.

In Civil War the only other hero in his league was Scarlet Witch (who takes him off guard and overpowers him but that's nothing to be ashamed of) so he spends the whole film holding back. He even gives the entirety of team Cap an "I could've killed you all just now if I'd wanted to" warning shot when he burns a line in the ground in front of them halfway through the airport fight.

Whenever he does choose to fight, it's clear he's OP. He intervenes twice in the fight against Giant Man (once to block a bus from crushing Black Panther, once to knock Giant Man back), he then destroys an airport tower, and unintentionally one shots War Machine

Totally agree. And if you take a moment to think about what you've said you'll realise that Vision was either almost useless or an serious liability to team Tony during that fight, especially given that he spends most of that fight doing......bugger all.

I've watched that sequence many times, and while it's still great there are long periods during which Vision does nothing.

And when he tries to help out he permanently cripples a teammate. Think about how the fight would have ended if Tony hadn't brought him along - Cap and Bucky still would still have got to the quinjet, team Tony still would have defeated Giant Man, Panther still takes out Hawkeye, and Tony and Rhodey might have been able to disable the quintet. Other than protect Panther ( who was wearing an indestructible suit anyway) and stagger Giant Man ( and then not follow up in any way) Vision actually did more to help team Cap and actually guaranteed Cap's escape by taking out Rhodes.

At least Strange was a real help to his team against Thanos and doesn't nearly kill any of them.

I agree that Vision is very powerful, he's just pretty useless at doing anything with that powe - and power doesn't necessarily equate to winning fights, otherwise Cw's final showdown would have had a different ending.

Strange, on the other hand, uses his powers with a masterful skill and is a real asset to a team.

After CW, if I were an Avenger I'd be damn nervous if Vision was on my side during a scrap.

 

[Batmannerism]

Strange caught Thanos off guard as well.

Not really. Strange starts the whole battle by talking to Thanos. In their one on one match up they clearly approach each other before Strange's opening salvo.

Tony catches Thanos off guard a couple of times....although it doesn't do much good.

 

[HammerDown]

Strange caught Thanos off guard as well.

No he didn't. Come on man.
I mean you could say that DS caught Thanos off guard when the team was enacting the plan but that is a group effort sort of situation, and that was the plan all along... Now when DS faced Thanos later on he did it 1 on 1. Face to face.

 

[Stormborn]

On how powerful Strange is:

You can't be serious here.
Of course Doctor Strange put much more of a fight than Iron Man did. Thanos basically only used the Power Stone and his physicality to deal with IM. While against Doctor Strange he used everything at his disposal to deal with DS, the abilities of the 4 infinity stones... Just because Iron Man came up close and personal against Thanos and got a tiny drop of blood out of him doesn't mean he posed a greater threat.

Strange essentially kept his distance, used some - admittedly incredible - defensive magic to redirect Infinity Gauntlet blasts, tried and failed to restrain Thanos, tried one offensive spell that blew up a few rocks and then lost as soon as Thanos got hold of him. The defensive magic was very impressive but defence alone doesn't win fights and at no point did he seem like he had any chance of hurting Thanos.

Iron Man on the other hand, had a serious speed/flight advantage, the durability to actually survive a few of Thanos hits, the skill to keep Thanos off balance in close quarters and he was at least capable of hurting Thanos. Sure, in the fight we saw he only managed to draw a drop of blood but if Thanos hadn't blocked Tony's attacks he at least had a small chance of inflicting more damage.

Iron Man ended up in a lot worse shape, and only survived because Strange gave up the Time stone.

True but that's mostly because Strange accepted he was beaten as soon as Thanos got hold of him and because Thanos needed Strange alive to give him the time stone. It's not because Thanos couldn't have injured Strange as badly as Tony if he'd wanted to.

And honestly even though Thor did almost took out Thanos with a fully assembled gauntlet he didn't face him 1 on 1 like Doctor Strange did. Thor caught Thanos off guard.

The fact Thor had to keep Thanos off balance/go for the kill quickly because he had all 6 stones doesn't diminish the fact he almost killed Thanos with the fully assembled Infinity Gauntlet and that his weapon cut through a beam from the gauntlet to do it.

With a weapon that can one shot Thanos, lightning that can stun/ragdoll him plus a flight advantage, the bifrost to prevent him being sent away by the space stone, the durability to tank power stone/reality stone blasts and the strength/skill to take Thanos on in close quarters Stormbreaker Thor would have a better chance against 4 Stone Thanos than any of the heroes on Titan.

First, I'm not suggesting Strange could have beaten Thanos without using the time stone ( which Thanos himself also remarks on). I suspect even with the Time Stone Thanos' 4 stones would have been too powerful - in Dr Strange's film Kaecillius was able to escape the reverse time effect with magic, Dormammu couldn't deal with the Time loop because he has no understanding of time. Thanos could have probably used the space stone in some way to escape a loop.

The way I imagine it, Strange could've trapped Thanos in a loop with him and it's possible Thanos wouldn't know how to escape it. Ultimately though, Thanos would either use the infinite time loop to experiment and figure out a way to escape or Thanos pathological obsession would mean he just wouldn't give in and after however many million loops Strange's willpower would break first.

Could Strange have beaten Thanos ? No, he saw 14000000 futures in which that didn't happen, so clearly no. Could he have used more lethal magic ? Possibly. Strange probably has knowledge of lethal magic but refuses to use it because of his Hippocratic oath - whereas Kaecillus had no qualms about killing.

Kaecillius never displayed any offensive magic that would've been effective against Vision either. Neither did the Ancient One.

Like I keep saying, Strange is almost featless when it comes to offensive magic so saying he could take out Vision despite his vibranium body/phasing/speed is a hell of a leap.

Personally I imagine these fights with both characters going for the kill. If you're imagining it as them fighting in character though, then why wouldn't Strange's hippocratic oath apply to Vision?

On how powerful Vision is:

Disagree he's the MVP.

He does wipe out a bunch of drones and cutting off Ultron's Internet access was helpful. But it was a combination of Vision, Iron Man and Thor who severely damaged Ultron Prime with follow up from the Hulk and a coup de gras from Scarlet Witch.
I give him credit for destroying the last Ultron stone - although given that Black Widow and Hawkeye took out heaps of drones, so that's not all that impressive.

I stand by calling Vision the MVP in the Battle of Sokovia. He did more than anyone to prevent Ultron's consciousness escaping, he ragdolled Ultron with Mjolnir and he used his flight/speed to save Scarlet Witch from the falling city. Most importantly though, we can see in the gif I posted that he fought Ultron Prime one on one and got the better of him. It was Vision's mind stone blast that pinned Ultron down and created the opening for Iron Man and Thor to join in so that together they could melt Ultron's vibranium shell.

On a side note, Hulk ragdolling Ultron Prime once he was pretty much beaten was actually unhelpful since it let him recover, get into the Quinjet and kill Quicksilver.

Totally agree. And if you take a moment to think about what you've said you'll realise that Vision was either almost useless or an serious liability to team Tony during that fight, especially given that he spends most of that fight doing......bugger all.

I've watched that sequence many times, and while it's still great there are long periods during which Vision does nothing.

And when he tries to help out he permanently cripples a teammate. Think about how the fight would have ended if Tony hadn't brought him along.........

Vision being ineffective in Civil War had nothing to do with powerful he is, and everything to do with him not wanting to actually hurt Team Cap. There are multiple moments in that film where we can see his power:

• burning the line in the ground as an I could've killed you all just now warning shot to Team Cap
• the reaction speed/durability it took to get in front of the bus about to hit Black Panther and then no sell the hit
• casually knocking Giant Man around
• destroying the airport tower
• accidentally one shotting War Machine

and that kind of power would be effective against Doctor Strange.

The only weaknesses we learned Vision has in Civil War are things Strange isn't able to take advantage of:

1. a vulnerability to Scarlet Witch manipulating the mind stone
2. a vulnerability to electricity that's pretty much irrelevant unless he has to fight Thor.

After CW, if I were an Avenger I'd be damn nervous if Vision was on my side during a scrap. Strange, on the other hand, uses his powers with a masterful skill and is a real asset to a team.

This isn't really relevant when we're arguing about a one on one Strange vs Vision fight. All the same though, I'd say you're being harsh on Vision. The guy was a huge asset to the team in Age of Ultron and in Civil War he was fighting heroes far less powerful than him, was admirably restrained but made one mistake (it wasn't even that his beam missed, he just didn't factor in where the beam would go if Falcon dodged).

 

[HammerDown]

Strange essentially kept his distance, used some - admittedly incredible - defensive magic to redirect Infinity Gauntlet blasts, tried and failed to restrain Thanos, tried one offensive spell that blew up a few rocks and then lost as soon as Thanos got hold of him. The defensive magic was very impressive but defence alone doesn't win fights and at no point did he seem like he had any chance of hurting Thanos.

Iron Man on the other hand, had a serious speed/flight advantage, the durability to actually survive a few of Thanos hits, the skill to keep Thanos off balance in close quarters and he was at least capable of hurting Thanos. Sure, in the fight we saw he only managed to draw a drop of blood but if Thanos hadn't blocked Tony's attacks he at least had a small chance of inflicting more damage.

Dude you're head is in the sand on this one. Of course he kept his distance. DS isn't dumb like Iron Man who thought he could come close, trade blows and get away with it, IM got immediately overpowered once Thanos got the hold of him... Even Thor used 2 long ranged attacks and one to critically injure Thanos.

Why did Doctor Strange failed to restrain Thanos? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.
Why did Doctor Strange failed his offensive spells? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.
Why did Doctor Strange got caught by Thanos? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.

Thanos used the Power Stone and his physicality to own Iron Man. Thanos used the power of 4 infinity stones to deal with Doctor Strange and that pretty much tells you and anyone else what sort of threat both characters posed to him.

 

[HammerDown]

The fact Thor had to keep Thanos off balance/go for the kill quickly because he had all 6 stones doesn't diminish the fact he almost killed Thanos with the fully assembled Infinity Gauntlet and that his weapon cut through a beam from the gauntlet to do it.

With a weapon that can one shot Thanos, lightning that can stun/ragdoll him plus a flight advantage, the bifrost to prevent him being sent away by the space stone, the durability to tank power stone/reality stone blasts and the strength/skill to take Thanos on in close quarters Stormbreaker Thor would have a better chance against 4 Stone Thanos than any of the heroes on Titan.

First of all i didn't diminish Thor's feat at all. I just put it into context.
Second you are turning this into a Thor battle which it isn't. And no, i don't think Thor would have fared much better had Thanos used the infinity stones in the same way he did against Doctor Strange.

 

[Stormborn]

Dude you're head is in the sand on this one. Of course he kept his distance. DS isn't dumb like Iron Man who thought he could come close, trade blows and get away with it, IM got immediately overpowered once Thanos got the hold of him... Even Thor used 2 long ranged attacks and one to critically injure Thanos.

Iron Man wasn't being dumb. He knew he was up against a far more powerful opponent and did everything he could to keep him off balance/prevent him from using the gauntlet, even if it involved risking his life and getting up close and personal.

He never had a serious chance of winning but he still kept Thanos off balance for over a minute so that Thanos never got and proved he had the strength/firepower to at least mildly injure him and the durability to take hits from him. I don't know how much more I can emphasise this: Strange did not hurt Thanos at all and we've seen nothing that suggests he's able to hurt anyone with powerhouse/transcendent level durability, including Vision.

Why did Doctor Strange failed to restrain Thanos? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.

Actually, Thanos got out of Strange's restraints (and threw off the rest of the heroes trying to restrain him plus Mantis telepathy) using physical strength alone. He only used the gauntlet the second time (power stone to blast away the Strange duplicates/soul stone to stun Strange's astral form) but I'm not convinced he needed it.

Why did Doctor Strange failed his offensive spells? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.

Which offensive spells are you saying Thanos needed several infinity stones to block?

• Strange tried to use a portal to send Thanos away (which to be clear, wouldn't have hurt Thanos) and Thanos only needed the power stone to block it (I imagine the space stone also could've worked or could've been used to escape the mirror dimension).
• Strange tried firing some orange energy bolts at Thanos. Thanos just jumped over them and they blew up a few rocks.

Why did Doctor Strange got caught by Thanos? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.

Thanos pulled Strange towards him with the gauntlet and as soon as he had his hands on Strange it was game over. He would've gotten a hold of Strange eventually either way though, since Strange had no way of hurting Thanos and hence no way of winning.

Overall, I'd say Thanos only really needed the gauntlet to protect himself from Strange sending him away using portals. Other than that, I think he'd have won the fight anyway, although it might have taken longer.

First of all i didn't diminish Thor's feat at all. I just put it into context.
Second you are turning this into a Thor battle which it isn't. And no, i don't think Thor would have fared much better had Thanos used the infinity stones in the same way he did against Doctor Strange.

You claimed that Doctor Strange's one on one fight with Thanos was more impressive than what you described as Thor catching Thanos off guard (not exactly the full context). You can't complain "you are turning this into a Thor battle" when I responded to that. I also wrote a lot about Strange and Vision so it's hardly like I'm taking the thread off topic.

Anyway, guess, we'll have to agree to disagree. Strange by his own admission didn't even have a 1 in 14,000,000 chance of beating Thanos one on one whereas Thor has a proven ability to kill Thanos if he lands a clean hit with Stormbreaker.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Dude you're head is in the sand on this one. Of course he kept his distance. DS isn't dumb like Iron Man who thought he could come close, trade blows and get away with it, IM got immediately overpowered once Thanos got the hold of him... Even Thor used 2 long ranged attacks and one to critically injure Thanos.

Why did Doctor Strange failed to restrain Thanos? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.
Why did Doctor Strange failed his offensive spells? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.
Why did Doctor Strange got caught by Thanos? Because Thanos used the power of several infinity stones.

Thanos used the Power Stone and his physicality to own Iron Man. Thanos used the power of 4 infinity stones to deal with Doctor Strange and that pretty much tells you and anyone else what sort of threat both characters posed to him.

The middle point isn't entirely correct as Thanos simply jumps out of the way of the first offensive spell Strange cast. The second that Thanos powers through is the mirror dimension, which is just something to displace someone, not outright defeat them (which I've assumed that this game is about).

The main issue here is to figure out how physical spells affect an intangible Vision though. When Strange uses The Images of Ikonn he does tie up Thanos physically, and while the strings are energy it's hard to say how they affect Vision. I don't think Vision is affected by general energy while intangible, but it's certainly not impossible that magic would be different.

 

[HammerDown]

Whatever Stormborn. I have tried to have a decent discussion with you before but it simply doesn't work.
You're constantly focused on your own argumentation that you don't even take into consideration what other people have to say. And i say this because you either omit stuff or don't care to mention or acknowledge other points that i made before.

And i don't really have the patience for never ending empty discussions with people that won't or can't properly acknowledge other people's points of view.

 

[Stormborn]

Whatever Stormborn. I have tried to have a decent discussion with you before but it simply doesn't work.
You're constantly focused on your own argumentation that you don't even take into consideration what other people have to say. And i say this because you either omit stuff or don't care to mention or acknowledge other points that i made before.

And i don't really have the patience for never ending empty discussions with people that won't or can't properly acknowledge other people's points of view.

Dude, you might not like that I disagree with you but if you scroll up I think it's pretty clear I took the time to politely respond to your posts point by point, twice. I don't think I omitted any of your points but if you think you've made some killer argument that I missed and didn't respond to then it must have been subtle because I have no idea what it is.

No need to start with ad hominem attacks on the way I debate (my head's in the sand, trying to have a decent discussion with me simply doesn't work etc), I'm happy to agree to disagree and discuss this stuff with people who actually want to.

 

[BigThor]

Well that escalated quickly.

 

[Stormborn]

Well that escalated quickly.

It did, didn't it? I mean, it really got out of hand fast.

 

[Batmannerism]

The middle point isn't entirely correct as Thanos simply jumps out of the way of the first offensive spell Strange cast. The second that Thanos powers through is the mirror dimension, which is just something to displace someone, not outright defeat them (which I've assumed that this game is about).

The main issue here is to figure out how physical spells affect an intangible Vision though. When Strange uses The Images of Ikkon he does tie up Thanos physically, and while the strings are energy it's hard to say how they affect Vision. I don't think Vision is affected by general energy while intangible, but it's certainly not impossible that magic would be different.

I thought that was the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak that Strange used vs Thanos.

He helped the FF and Avengers take out Galactus once with the Images of Ikon, it's a different spell altogether.

On how powerful Strange is:

Strange essentially kept his distance, used some - admittedly incredible - defensive magic to redirect Infinity Gauntlet blasts, tried and failed to restrain Thanos, tried one offensive spell that blew up a few rocks and then lost as soon as Thanos got hold of him. The defensive magic was very impressive but defence alone doesn't win fights and at no point did he seem like he had any chance of hurting Thanos.

Iron Man on the other hand, had a serious speed/flight advantage, the durability to actually survive a few of Thanos hits, the skill to keep Thanos off balance in close quarters and he was at least capable of hurting Thanos. Sure, in the fight we saw he only managed to draw a drop of blood but if Thanos hadn't blocked Tony's attacks he at least had a small chance of inflicting more damage.


True but that's mostly because Strange accepted he was beaten as soon as Thanos got hold of him and because Thanos needed Strange alive to give him the time stone. It's not because Thanos couldn't have injured Strange as badly as Tony if he'd wanted to.

The fact Thor had to keep Thanos off balance/go for the kill quickly because he had all 6 stones doesn't diminish the fact he almost killed Thanos with the fully assembled Infinity Gauntlet and that his weapon cut through a beam from the gauntlet to do it.

With a weapon that can one shot Thanos, lightning that can stun/ragdoll him plus a flight advantage, the bifrost to prevent him being sent away by the space stone, the durability to tank power stone/reality stone blasts and the strength/skill to take Thanos on in close quarters Stormbreaker Thor would have a better chance against 4 Stone Thanos than any of the heroes on Titan.



The way I imagine it, Strange could've trapped Thanos in a loop with him and it's possible Thanos wouldn't know how to escape it. Ultimately though, Thanos would either use the infinite time loop to experiment and figure out a way to escape or Thanos pathological obsession would mean he just wouldn't give in and after however many million loops Strange's willpower would break first.



Kaecillius never displayed any offensive magic that would've been effective against Vision either. Neither did the Ancient One.

Like I keep saying, Strange is almost featless when it comes to offensive magic so saying he could take out Vision despite his vibranium body/phasing/speed is a hell of a leap.

Personally I imagine these fights with both characters going for the kill. If you're imagining it as them fighting in character though, then why wouldn't Strange's hippocratic oath apply to Vision?

On how powerful Vision is:



I stand by calling Vision the MVP in the Battle of Sokovia. He did more than anyone to prevent Ultron's consciousness escaping, he ragdolled Ultron with Mjolnir and he used his flight/speed to save Scarlet Witch from the falling city. Most importantly though, we can see in the gif I posted that he fought Ultron Prime one on one and got the better of him. It was Vision's mind stone blast that pinned Ultron down and created the opening for Iron Man and Thor to join in so that together they could melt Ultron's vibranium shell.

On a side note, Hulk ragdolling Ultron Prime once he was pretty much beaten was actually unhelpful since it let him recover, get into the Quinjet and kill Quicksilver.



Vision being ineffective in Civil War had nothing to do with powerful he is, and everything to do with him not wanting to actually hurt Team Cap. There are multiple moments in that film where we can see his power:

• burning the line in the ground as an I could've killed you all just now warning shot to Team Cap
• the reaction speed/durability it took to get in front of the bus about to hit Black Panther and then no sell the hit
• casually knocking Giant Man around
• destroying the airport tower
• accidentally one shotting War Machine

and that kind of power would be effective against Doctor Strange.

The only weaknesses we learned Vision has in Civil War are things Strange isn't able to take advantage of:

1. a vulnerability to Scarlet Witch manipulating the mind stone
2. a vulnerability to electricity that's pretty much irrelevant unless he has to fight Thor

This isn't really relevant when we're arguing about a one on one Strange vs Vision fight. All the same though, I'd say you're being harsh on Vision. The guy was a huge asset to the team in Age of Ultron and in Civil War he was fighting heroes far less powerful than him, was admirably restrained but made one mistake (it wasn't even that his beam missed, he just didn't factor in where the beam would go if Falcon dodged).

First Kaecillius displayed the ability to conjure lethal magical blades and he and the Ancient one could fold space and matter. Good luck phasing through that.

Second, my point about how useless Vision was in CW wasn't about his level of power, it was about how rubbish he is at using it. Crippling a team mate isn't a "mistake" IMO it's a massive **** up. It would be like Thor doing his big lightning blast after his entrance and electrocuting the Avengers and Wakandans as well as the monsters...oops.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I thought that was the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak that Strange used vs Thanos.

He helped the FF and Avengers take out Galactus once with the Images of Ikon, it's a different spell altogether.

The Images of Ikonn creates duplicates of the caster so I'd say that was the spell Strange used. What spell all those mirror images then used to restrain Thanos I don't know, but I don't think it was the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak as it looked like strings.

He used the Crimson Bands when he was holding Thanos together with the rest of the group as that visual was clearly red glowing bands.

 

[Batmannerism]

The Images of Ikonn creates duplicates of the caster so I'd say that was the spell Strange used. What spell all those mirror images then used to restrain Thanos I don't know, but I don't think it was the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak as it looked like strings.

He used the Crimson Bands when he was holding Thanos together with the rest of the group as that visual was clearly red glowing bands.

Interesting. Images of Ikon is a different thing in the comics. Love those Crimson Bands though.

On an earlier note the reason the Hippocratic oath doesn't apply to the Vision is because if he's rendered inoperable or even mostly destroyed he can be repaired and reactivated. Once a living creature dies that's usually the end of the story.

Strange could cut off Visions head, knowing he could be put back together again.

IMO Dr Strange would wipe out Voldemort and anyone from the Potterverse - 3 words " No wand necessary ".

While we disagree, the poll clearly shows a curbstomp for Dr Strange.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Interesting. Images of Ikon is a different thing in the comics. Love those Crimson Bands though.

On an earlier note the reason the Hippocratic oath doesn't apply to the Vision is because if he's rendered inoperable or even mostly destroyed he can be repaired and reactivated. Once a living creature dies that's usually the end of the story.

Strange could cut off Visions head, knowing he could be put back together again.

IMO Dr Strange would wipe out Voldemort and anyone from the Potterverse - 3 words " No wand necessary ".

While we disagree, the poll clearly shows a curbstomp for Dr Strange.

Maybe it's done different things at different times but when I wrote my earlier post I went to a Marvel comic wiki to double check my info, just to see that I hadn't mixed up my memories, and it says that the Images of Ikonn creates visual duplicates of the caster.

As for the Hippocratic oath, I haven't made any argument around that this far, and I don't think that's relevant since isn't this game about scenarios where characters don't take such things into consideration? Otherwise most of these guys generally wouldn't fight each other at all.

We don't fully disagree as I haven't voted, I'm just looking at factors in both characters' favor that makes it hard to choose. My only hesitation to choose Strange is when I'm purely looking at what he's done in the MCU, and disregarding that he can probably do a little bit of whatever the writer wants. His spells this far do not look very effective against Vision in order to take him out. His most impressive things have not been offense. When I'm speculating on Strange's unseen capabilities I certainly choose him, but I don't think that's what I'm supposed to do here.

For example, if Vision keeps a steady Mind Stone beam on Strange, does the doctor ever get the time to do something offensive before Vision has flown up to him?

 

[Stormborn]

On an earlier note the reason the Hippocratic oath doesn't apply to the Vision is because if he's rendered inoperable or even mostly destroyed he can be repaired and reactivated. Once a living creature dies that's usually the end of the story.

Strange could cut off Visions head, knowing he could be put back together again.

Well, I guess that answers my why do you think Strange is robophobic question.

I don't know though, we don't have any evidence that MCU Vision can be put back together/resurrected (yet). There's no reason for Strange to be confident about that.

For arguments sake though, let's assume Strange wants to kill or KO Vision. He's got no feats that suggest he can do it.

First Kaecillius displayed the ability to conjure lethal magical blades and he and the Ancient one could fold space and matter. Good luck phasing through that.

1. The magical blades have only been shown hurting humans. We also see Strange conjure the same kind of blade and hit Thanos with it but it does no damage at all.
2. They can only fold space and matter inside the mirror dimension. I'm presuming this fight doesn't take place there.

Second, my point about how useless Vision was in CW wasn't about his level of power, it was about how rubbish he is at using it. Crippling a team mate isn't a "mistake" IMO it's a massive **** up. It would be like Thor doing his big lightning blast after his entrance and electrocuting the Avengers and Wakandans as well as the monsters...oops.

I still think Vision showed he can fight as part of a team in Age of Ultron. In Civil War he spent most of the film holding back for obvious reasons but with a couple of impressive interventions, and then he made one pretty understandable mistake (his shot was perfectly aimed, he just didn't think about where it would go if Falcon dodged).

Anyway, we agree that Vision's incredibly powerful and whether or not he's a good team player is irrelevant in a one on one fight.

IMO Dr Strange would wipe out Voldemort and anyone from the Potterverse - 3 words " No wand necessary ".

Nah, Potterverse wizards have unblockable instant kill spells, instant stunning spells, teleportation without the need for portals, the ability to transfigure/charm the environment to fight for them, pyromancy, hydromancy etc plus a lot of other weird and unpredictable stuff. As things stand right now, the top tier Potter wizards could give Strange a lot of trouble.

My only hesitation to choose Strange is when I'm purely looking at what he's done in the MCU, and disregarding that he can probably do a little bit of whatever the writer wants. His spells this far do not look very effective against Vision in order to take him out. His most impressive things have not been offense. When I'm speculating on Strange's unseen capabilities I certainly choose him, but I don't think that's what I'm supposed to do here.

Yeah, that's where I'm at with this too.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Strange displays some powerful offensive spells in future films and it becomes clear he could damage powerhouses like Hulk/Vision/Ultron etc. Right now though, he's got great defensive feats but offensively he's pretty much featless.

 

[Batmannerism]

Maybe it's done different things at different times but when I wrote my earlier post I went to a Marvel comic wiki to double check my info, just to see that I hadn't mixed up my memories, and it says that the Images of Ikonn creates visual duplicates of the caster.

As for the Hippocratic oath, I haven't made any argument around that this far, and I don't think that's relevant since isn't this game about scenarios where characters don't take such things into consideration? Otherwise most of these guys generally wouldn't fight each other at all.

We don't fully disagree as I haven't voted, I'm just looking at factors in both characters' favor that makes it hard to choose. My only hesitation to choose Strange is when I'm purely looking at what he's done in the MCU, and disregarding that he can probably do a little bit of whatever the writer wants. His spells this far do not look very effective against Vision in order to take him out. His most impressive things have not been offense. When I'm speculating on Strange's unseen capabilities I certainly choose him, but I don't think that's what I'm supposed to do here.

For example, if Vision keeps a steady Mind Stone beam on Strange, does the doctor ever get the time to do something offensive before Vision has flown up to him?

In response to that last question, in his fight v Thanos Strange was capable of redirecting Thanos' infinity stone attacks back at him - without using a stone himself. That's impressive.

Well, I guess that answers my why do you think Strange is robophobic question.

I don't know though, we don't have any evidence that MCU Vision can be put back together/resurrected (yet). There's no reason for Strange to be confident about that.

For arguments sake though, let's assume Strange wants to kill or KO Vision. He's got no feats that suggest he can do it.



1. The magical blades have only been shown hurting humans. We also see Strange conjure the same kind of blade and hit Thanos with it but it does no damage at all.
2. They can only fold space and matter inside the mirror dimension. I'm presuming this fight doesn't take place there.



I still think Vision showed he can fight as part of a team in Age of Ultron. In Civil War he spent most of the film holding back for obvious reasons but with a couple of impressive interventions, and then he made one pretty understandable mistake (his shot was perfectly aimed, he just didn't think about where it would go if Falcon dodged).

Anyway, we agree that Vision's incredibly powerful and whether or not he's a good team player is irrelevant in a one on one fight.



Nah, Potterverse wizards have unblockable instant kill spells, instant stunning spells, teleportation without the need for portals, the ability to transfigure/charm the environment to fight for them, pyromancy, hydromancy etc plus a lot of other weird and unpredictable stuff. As things stand right now, the top tier Potter wizards could give Strange a lot of trouble.



Yeah, that's where I'm at with this too.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Strange displays some powerful offensive spells in future films and it becomes clear he could damage powerhouses like Hulk/Vision/Ultron etc. Right now though, he's got great defensive feats but offensively he's pretty much featless.

Potterverse wizards can't do fiddly squat without their wands - if Strange can turn a black hole into butterflies and reflect blasts from infinity stones I'm sure he can deflect Potter Wizard curses ( which even Potter wizards could do, including the death curse).

Not to be snarky but you have actually seen the Dr Strange film, right ?
Kaecillius demonstrated matter folding outside the mirror dimension at the church after he completed the ritual from the book of Cagliostro - he also uses the same power against Strange in the Bleeker street sanctum - the Ancient one even comments on that because it's so naughty to fold space in the real world.

Strange with no moral boundaries would be an incredibly deadly foe for anyone.

Your argument about Vision crippling Rhodes.....I just can't see how you can minimize such a monumental **** up. Thor managed to wipe out the asgardian zombie army without frying any of his own people, with a more difficult to control attack. Iron Man doesn't blast the other avenger by accident - sure Vision's error was unintentional but also catastrophic.

To me that shows he lacks control of his powers - and power without control is almost useless.

But we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

In response to that last question, in his fight v Thanos Strange was capable of redirecting Thanos' infinity stone attacks back at him - without using a stone himself. That's impressive.

Strange is very impressive and powerful, that is definitely not something I contest. In fact he's one of my favorites so I'm rooting for him.

My question rather focused on the point that Vision can seemingly keep the beam on indefinitely if he wants to, while Thanos' attacks were single burst like most attacks are. It can make it harder to get the time to actually turn the defense into an offensive move. I'm not saying Strange can't, I'm just pointing out one of the types of dilemmas I'm contemplating.

 

[Stormborn]

Not to be snarky but you have actually seen the Dr Strange film, right ?
Kaecillius demonstrated matter folding outside the mirror dimension at the church after he completed the ritual from the book of Cagliostro - he also uses the same power against Strange in the Bleeker street sanctum - the Ancient one even comments on that because it's so naughty to fold space in the real world.

You've got me there. It's been a while, I only remembered the scenes where they fold matter in the mirror dimension.

A few thoughts from me though:

• We've never seen Strange do it, have we?
• Wasn't the matter folding ability linked to drawing power from Dormammu and that was why only the Ancient One and Kaecillius could do it?
• Vision can fly so reorienting gravity or turning the floor/wall into a death trap won't be too effective against him.

Strange with no moral boundaries would be an incredibly deadly foe for anyone.

As far as we know, he can

• conjure a magical sword that can kill humans but bounce harmlessly off Thanos
• fire orange bolts that can blow up rocks but which Thanos found fairly easy to dodge.
• cut someone with a closing portal if they don't dodge and he times it perfectly

his other offensive abilities are unknown. I'm not saying he doesn't know other offensive spells, just that I'm not going to assume he knows spells that can hurt Vision until I see them.

Your argument about Vision crippling Rhodes.....I just can't see how you can minimize such a monumental **** up. Thor managed to wipe out the asgardian zombie army without frying any of his own people, with a more difficult to control attack. Iron Man doesn't blast the other avenger by accident - sure Vision's error was unintentional but also catastrophic.

In reality, friendly fire is a hazard of warfare when both friendly and enemy targets are close together. It doesn't mean the marksman are incompetent, just that they're not perfect and made split second decisions to attempt shots they shouldn't have (often when ordered to). That's my take on Vision's mistake too.

Credit where it's due though, Vision's aim was actually incredible. If Falcon hadn't dodged then Vision was on target to take out Falcon's thruster and turn him into a glider, exactly like Rhodey asked him to. Picking out a particular part of one of three fast moving targets roughly a mile away is no easy feat, a world class sniper would be more likely than not to miss.

To me that shows he lacks control of his powers - and power without control is almost useless.

But we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

Okay, so Vision doesn't quite have the skill to non-lethally hit one of three small fast moving aerial targets from a mile away, whilst reliably leaving the others unharmed and he doesn't have perfect judgement. Point taken.

He does have the skill/power to get the better of Ultron Prime one on one, to take Thor on in hand to hand and to tear through who knows how many Ultron Bots in close quarters alongside 8 other Avengers with no friendly fire. He has the speed/perception to find and rescue Scarlet Witch from a city falling from the sky in seconds. He has the reactions/durability to see a bus kicked towards Black Panther, fly down in front of it and no sell the hit. He has a ranged attack that can overwhelm Vibranium Ultron, one shot War Machine, and cut down an airport tower.

He's far from useless. And I still think any criticism you want to make about him being a danger to his team mates is pretty irrelevant in a one on one fight.