MCU Fight: Vision Vs. Doctor Strange

[Batmannerism]

You've got me there. It's been a while, I only remembered the scenes where they fold matter in the mirror dimension.

A few thoughts from me though:

• We've never seen Strange do it, have we?
• Wasn't the matter folding ability linked to drawing power from Dormammu and that was why only the Ancient One and Kaecillius could do it?
• Vision can fly so reorienting gravity or turning the floor/wall into a death trap won't be too effective against him.

As far as we know, he can

• conjure a magical sword that can kill humans but bounce harmlessly off Thanos
• fire orange bolts that can blow up rocks but which Thanos found fairly easy to dodge.
• cut someone with a closing portal if they don't dodge and he times it perfectly

his other offensive abilities are unknown. I'm not saying he doesn't know other offensive spells, just that I'm not going to assume he knows spells that can hurt Vision until I see them.



In reality, friendly fire is a hazard of warfare when both friendly and enemy targets are close together. It doesn't mean the marksman are incompetent, just that they're not perfect and made split second decisions to attempt shots they shouldn't have (often when ordered to). That's my take on Vision's mistake too.

Credit where it's due though, Vision's aim was actually incredible. If Falcon hadn't dodged then Vision was on target to take out Falcon's thruster and turn him into a glider, exactly like Rhodey asked him to. Picking out a particular part of one of three fast moving targets roughly a mile away is no easy feat, a world class sniper would be more likely than not to miss.



Okay, so Vision doesn't quite have the skill to non-lethally hit one of three small fast moving aerial targets from a mile away, whilst reliably leaving the others unharmed and he doesn't have perfect judgement. Point taken.

He does have the skill/power to get the better of Ultron Prime one on one, to take Thor on in hand to hand and to tear through who knows how many Ultron Bots in close quarters alongside 8 other Avengers with no friendly fire. He has the speed/perception to find and rescue Scarlet Witch from a city falling from the sky in seconds. He has the reactions/durability to see a bus kicked towards Black Panther, fly down in front of it and no sell the hit. He has a ranged attack that can overwhelm Vibranium Ultron, one shot War Machine, and cut down an airport tower.

He's far from useless. And I still think any criticism you want to make about him being a danger to his team mates is pretty irrelevant in a one on one fight.

Vision's beam is a straight line attack. Say what you like but I suspect that real marksmen hold their fire when a friendly is in a direct line with their target, or there's a real risk that if they miss they'll hit a friendly.

Friendly fire is a reality in the heat of battle, but come on I mean the targets were in the freaking sky, with no obstructions and it wasn't like Vision was surrounded by explosions or gunfire or other distractions.

It's actually lucky that Vision didn't hit Falcon, because if that blast was powerful enough to blast through Rhodes' armour it probably would have blown a hole straight through Sam, or through the jetpack and through the back of Sam's head.

Some of Vision's feats, like the bus, are impressive. And his beam is deadly accurate against stationary targets like the ground and the airport tower ( bet the German government were thrilled about that). But I struggle to see how you can list crippling a team mate as a feat, one shotting War Machine by mistake is nothing to brag about.

I accept that in a 1 on 1 Vision has no team mates to disappoint or nearly kill - probs a lot of very relieved super heroes on that one.

And as before....Dr Strange wins.

 

[metaphysician]

Honestly, I still read that scene as, on some level, probably not conscious. . . it wasn't an accident. Which is to say, Vision "accidentally" shot War Machine, right after Rhodey blasted the crap out of Wanda? Doesn't really feel like coincidence. Sure, he told himself "I am aiming at Falcon, to clip his jetpack and end this fight". He just happened to fire at the extremely-dodgy opponent, at the exact moment when the much-less-dodgy dude who shot his maybe-girlfriend is lined up exactly behind his target.

 

[Stormborn]

Dr Strange wins.

You didn't respond to my point that Strange doesn't have any offensive feats that suggest he can hurt someone as fast/durable as Vision.

There's no reason to believe he can fold buildings like Kaecilius and it wouldn't be that effective against someone who can fly/phase anyway. That leaves him with three attacks:

• conjure a magical sword that can kill humans but bounces harmlessly off Thanos
• fire orange bolts that can blow up rocks but which Thanos found fairly easy to dodge.
• cut someone with a closing portal if they don't dodge and he times it perfectly

Vision's beam is a straight line attack. Say what you like but I suspect that real marksmen hold their fire when a friendly is in a direct line with their target, or there's a real risk that if they miss they'll hit a friendly.

Agreed. The shot itself was as accurate as the world's best snipers could have managed and if Falcon hadn't dodged I think it would have had the desired effect and taken out his thruster to turn him into a glider (Rhodey wouldn't have asked Vision to do it if it wasn't possible).

Ultimately though, it was a poor split second judgement to try to make a shot at that distance with two fast moving friendlies nearby.

Beyond that, I don't really want to keep going round in circles on this. The amount of hate you're showing for Vision seems a bit bizarre to me. He's a likeable enough character, he's got a lot of feats suggesting he's a competent, extremely powerful fighter but he made one mistake by attempting something extremely difficult in a high pressure situation. I don't see the logic in dismissing his chances in a one on one fight on the basis of that mistake.

 

[Batmannerism]

You didn't respond to my point that Strange doesn't have any offensive feats that suggest he can hurt someone as fast/durable as Vision.

There's no reason to believe he can fold buildings like Kaecilius and it wouldn't be that effective against someone who can fly/phase anyway. That leaves him with three attacks:

• conjure a magical sword that can kill humans but bounces harmlessly off Thanos
• fire orange bolts that can blow up rocks but which Thanos found fairly easy to dodge.
• cut someone with a closing portal if they don't dodge and he times it perfectly

Agreed. The shot itself was as accurate as the world's best snipers could have managed and if Falcon hadn't dodged I think it would have had the desired effect and taken out his thruster to turn him into a glider (Rhodey wouldn't have asked Vision to do it if it wasn't possible).

Ultimately though, it was a poor split second judgement to try to make a shot at that distance with two fast moving friendlies nearby.

Beyond that, I don't really want to keep going round in circles on this. The amount of hate you're showing for Vision seems a bit bizarre to me. He's a likeable enough character, he's got a lot of feats suggesting he's a competent, extremely powerful fighter but he made one mistake by attempting something extremely difficult in a high pressure situation. I don't see the logic in dismissing his chances in a one on one fight on the basis of that mistake.

I am particularly un impressed with Vision after the crippling of Rhodes. I find it equally bizarre how you keep minimizimg this monumental and callous blunder.

I think your suggestion that Vision's beam would have turned Sam into a glider is still without merit - given the demonstrable effect that it had on armour that can stand up to tank shells. More likely it would have turned him into cinders. Even if he had nicked Sam's jetpack the next thing in line would have been the back of Sam's head - which would have been pretty gruesome.

Equally I am unimpressed by most of Visions feats. The bus deflect, well that was cool.

Ultron drones ? Hawkeye and Widow could take them out.
Ultron Prime ? Blindsiding him with Mjolnir isnt that impressive.
Blasting stationary objects for Property damage ? Need I say more ?

Blindsiding Giant Man.....not bad but achieved nothing other than more property damage.
The list goes on.....

I'm not sure if it's a writers problem but if you think critically about Vision, after Age of Ultron he really achieves bugger all or is a liability ( Wanda carried his android ass in IW).
That annoys me, I admit it's irrational but it just does.

However you are correct on 2 fronts

1)You are correct that crippling a team mate doesn't diminish his chances in a one on one with Strange. If I suggested it did, I was wrong to do so.

2) This is becoming circular and we are no closer to agreeing or modifying our views.

As such, I shall leave it at that and bid you good day Sir.

 

[Shuri]

Just seeing this now, Strange definitely.

 

[Stormborn]

I am particularly un impressed with Vision after the crippling of Rhodes. I find it equally bizarre how you keep minimizimg this monumental and callous blunder.

It was a monumental blunder but it wasn't callous.

If you're interested, we also have the Russo's word that Rhodey forgave Vision.
Infinity War Director Explains Why War Machine Forgave Vision

I think your suggestion that Vision's beam would have turned Sam into a glider is still without merit - given the demonstrable effect that it had on armour that can stand up to tank shells. More likely it would have turned him into cinders. Even if he had nicked Sam's jetpack the next thing in line would have been the back of Sam's head - which would have been pretty gruesome.

Then why did Rhodey - a guy who'd been Vision's teammate for a couple of years and knew what he was capable of - radio Vision with the exact words "Vision target his thruster and turn him into a glider"?

Equally I am unimpressed by most of Visions feats. The bus deflect, well that was cool.

Ultron drones ? Hawkeye and Widow could take them out.
Ultron Prime ? Blindsiding him with Mjolnir isnt that impressive.
Blasting stationary objects for Property damage ? Need I say more ?

Blindsiding Giant Man.....not bad but achieved nothing other than more property damage.
The list goes on.....

Actually, when I say he got the better of Ultron Prime one on one I was referring to this:

I'm not sure if it's a writers problem but if you think critically about Vision, after Age of Ultron he really achieves bugger all or is a liability ( Wanda carried his android ass in IW).That annoys me, I admit it's irrational but it just does.

Yeah, the Russos haven't shown him a lot of love. He's one of the only MCU characters whose best feats are mostly in his debut. In Civil War he was holding back/sidelining himself most of the time, in Infinity War he was crippled by an OP weapon at the start of the film.

However you are correct on 2 fronts

1)You are correct that crippling a team mate doesn't diminish his chances in a one on one with Strange. If I suggested it did, I was wrong to do so.

2) This is becoming circular and we are no closer to agreeing or modifying our views.

As such, I shall leave it at that and bid you good day Sir.

Fair enough, I think we were talking past each other on the "is Strange powerful enough to hurt Vision?" point. It seems you're comfortable speculating that Strange has offensive abilities we haven't seen yet, whereas I'm not.

Have a nice day!

 

[BigThor]

I wish you guys would keep that same energy and take it over to THIS week's fight, Luke Cage vs Red Skull.

 

[Stormborn]

I wish you guys would keep that same energy and take it over to THIS week's fight, Luke Cage vs Red Skull.

@Batmannerism and I don't really have much debate on that one. We both seem to agree Luke Cage wins.

 

[Batmannerism]

@Batmannerism and I don't really have much debate on that one. We both seem to agree Luke Cage wins.

Agreed. I don't see a Nazi super soldier with megalomania defeating a guy from the meanest of New York's mean streets who can shrug off bullets - in a knock down drag out brawl Cage's significantly greater durability is the decider for me.

 

[Batmannerism]

It was a monumental blunder but it wasn't callous.

If you're interested, we also have the Russo's word that Rhodey forgave Vision.
Infinity War Director Explains Why War Machine Forgave Vision

Then why did Rhodey - a guy who'd been Vision's teammate for a couple of years and knew what he was capable of - radio Vision with the exact words "Vision target his thruster and turn him into a glider"



Fair enough, I think we were talking past each other on the "is Strange powerful enough to hurt Vision?" point. It seems you're comfortable speculating that Strange has offensive abilities we haven't seen yet, whereas I'm not.

Have a nice day!

As our argument has concluded, this is not intended to convince you of anything but I feel it necessary to state that I believe that Rhodes was wrong to call in that strike - I'm not saying that he deserved to be crippled, but the initial mistake was his in asking Vision to make such a difficult and dangerous shot with such a powerful weapon - it was like using a cannon to shoot down a duck. The beam doesn't appear to have a low power setting.

Given the power of that blast it clearly would have blown a hole straight through Sam. The wings are attached to the jetpack so there's every chance that even if Sam survived the blast he would have plummeted to his death.

I feel I must respond to your final comment, regarding my speculation, although I realise that we will still disagree.

I suppose there is some speculation that Strange could harm Vision with:

-The mystical weapons he can conjure;
- turning back Vision's mind stone energy;
blasts against him ( as he did with the power stone beam, which Thanos overcame by using the gauntlet)
- crushing him with the crimson bands of Cyttorak.
- using a portal to dismember/ decapitate him.
- withering sarcasm
- other nasty spells that we haven't seen yet ( yes, that is pure speculation)

In terms of speculation, some folks have referred to Vision as being made of vibranium. If that's true then MCU Vision should be just about indestructible.

Comic book Vision's primary power is density control. He isn't durable because he's made of vibranium, he's made of tough stuff but it's his ability to become super dense that makes him able to resist damage - and he can't move fast when he does. His other option is to reduce his density so much that he can phase through solid matter.

In CW Vision shows that he can resist force used against him ( e.g. Hawkeye's baton and more impressively the bus at the airport) which I presume is him becoming super dense - in the same way he blindsided Giant Man by switching from low to high density.

However,Thanos manages not just to pry the mind stone free from Vision's head but to cave in the front of his skull. Due to his injuries Vision can't phase but if he's really made of vibranium could Thanos do that ?

While there might be a little vibranium in Vision's body I struggle to accept that he's composed of enough of it to make him invulnerable without using his density power. I think he's pretty much mostly made of the artificial tissue that Dr Chi invented - otherwise how could Thanos so easily rip open his skull ? ( accepting that Thanos is at least as strong as the Hulk).

Ultron clearly uses the bulk of the vibranium in his Sokovian doomsday device - as such I don't think he had a lot left over for Vision. Speculation, true but I suggest it's reasonable speculation based on what we've seen.

My point here is that I believe folks are overselling Vision's durability ( when he's not using his density control).....


.....okay, taking a deep breath and letting go of this now....might go visit the Cage v Skull thread.

 

[BigThor]

New battle is up, Iron Man vs Abilisk!

 

[Batmannerism]

New battle is up, Iron Man vs Abilisk!

Thank goodness, I went way OTT on this one.