Comics Mentoring and Aging

[Feature]

I don't even know why we bother trying to reply to this guy, aside from the fact that it is so satisfying to so utterly prove someone wrong that their responses consist of nothing more than putting words in your mouth followed by 'blah blah blah.'

Basically, this clown's idea of an ace Spider-Man comic is if we take the first
100 or so issues of ASM, and loop them end to end for enternity, reprinting them for each new generation. Then Spidey will never change and Gregatron can sleep soundly. Then we can also call up all the radio stations and have them play some Elvis and Beatles tunes and pretend that they're brand new because music shouldn't change either. Then I'm calling the nearest theatre and insisting they play Casblanca and only Casablanca from now on, because I only want to enjoy things while they are in their original and purest forms.

This guys has contradicted himself so many times I have to reread the author of the reply to tell if it is him posting or someone arguing against him. "You can make a million versions of Spider-Man but it won't sell well!" What do you care if it sells well? You don't care about Marvel remember? You're just loyal to Spider-Man, and by Spider-Man I mean Spider-Man circa 1960, as long as Stan is writing and as long as the issue ends in an even number and was realeased on a Tuesday, because we all know that is the ONE TRUE Spider-Man.

His replies talk about how recently authors have just done ruined everything, and that Superman was only good from 1948 to 1958. You know why? BECAUSE THAT'S HOW LONG IT TOOK FOR SOMEONE TO REALIZE THAT THE SAME OLD THING IS BORING AND PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO LAP IT UP LIKE YOU DO!

Come on, you can't even think for yourself. This whole thread is based on how Iron Man is 20. NO ONE THINKS HE IS 20! And why do you think he's twenty? "Duh... I dunno, I tink I heard sumbuddy say dat before" Hey Gregatron, where did you come up with these stupid ideas and can you summarize them in a coherent way? "Duh... nope, bud here's sumting frum annuder bord dat I wunce read" And what is your response to these counter arguments that plainly defeat your flimsly plagiarized theories? "Duh... so whut if dat makes more sense, tell me sumting diffwent, blah blah blah"

Thanks for your awesome contribution to this site, I mean, you must be right, you didn't even use any curse words! The true sign of a genius! "Consistency is victory!" No, I think what you meant was "Stupidity is futility".

 

[ragdus]

I'm aghast.


Okay. 196 versions of Spider-Man are great, none of them will sell well.

... rape rape rape ...

And the fans will eat it up. Sales will never have been better, and all that old crap can be forgotten.

2. Who says characters should "evolve"? They didn't evolve in the Golden Age, and sales skyrocketed.

So if rape sells, then according to your logic it IS as good as golden age comics.

 

[Silverstein]

So if rape sells, then according to your logic it IS as good as golden age comics.

OWN3D.

 

[LarryLegend]

Greg, you need a new line of arguement. Then again I guess it saves you time since you just paste the same thing over and over in each thread.

 

[MaxCarnage]

So if rape sells, then according to your logic it IS as good as golden age comics.

"Fools upon fools! Nay, your anger blinds your judgement, and thou hast verily been betrayed by thine own stubborness."

Just thought I'd jump in there and help Greg out as best I could.

 

[Dyeathrose]

I've said my stance on the growing and aging of Spider-man in various other threads, so I won't play the fiddle another umpteenth time here. Heck, I haven't even been able to truly take all my thoughts and make them coherrently into anykind of one source. Too many conflicts that I'm still trying to sort.

As for Peter with a mentor, whether it be Tony Stark or not, I don't think it's too far-fetched to think someone who's very gun-ho on learning and using his mind as Parker is would object to going under someone else's wing. I don't like the "boss" thing particularly well, as I don't think it's being used in sarcasm like I'd first thought, but Peter seems to be the kind that wants to expand his horizons. Gain knowledge from all places and apply it to his own learning; him getting a mentor could even help him gain more ideas of his own for his arsenel of gear.

I think it's the costume and other little aspects that make people very unhappy with Peter and Tony's relationship. I don't think he's see him as a father-figure, but more as a contemporary he can learn from in his field. But, I also feel the only father-figure Peter ever considered was Uncle Ben, so I'm biased on that.

 

[Geko]

I'm replying to a few of the basic themes in this thread, not the flame war.

One.
Why must characters evolve?
Characters must evolve because comics have evolved. Usually they evolve to reflect the morality of the day. Best examples, look at Batman and Superman through the ages. A desire to return a character to who he was at his inception is actually a desire for the comic industry to return to that time as well.

Two.
Must characters age?
Only if they're kids, and you can thank Spidey and Stan for that one. Before Spider-Man, teen sidekicks like Robin just stayed kids, but Stan wanted to do something different. A teen who was a hero, and had to deal with the problems of being a teen. Well the main problem with, and most interesting thing about watching a teen is that they get older. We want to see that. So Marvel and Spidey started it, and the Distinguished Competition had to follow suit or get left behind.
Now that Peter is an adult, he either has to stop aging, or Marvel must 1. age all of their other adult heros, (bad idea) no one wants to follow the adventures of a geriatric Moon Knight!
or
2. Reboot the entire universe (hey people on these boards can't handle a temporary costume change, how will a universe-wide reboot be recieved??)

Three
How old is Iron Man.
Impossible to know. He's been rebooted. The original Iron Man died. The current Iron man is a construct of Franklin Richards.
From Marvel.Com's Iron Man bio:

...Later readers discover Iron Man was being controlled by Kang the Conqueror. As a sleeper agent Tony was forced to kill Yellowjacket, Rita DeMara, and Crystal’s Nanny Marilla. To battle the combined forces of Iron Man and Kang, The Avengers were forced to recruit a teenage version of Tony Stark. Teen Tony stole a suit of armor from Stark International and aided The Avengers in battle. When the adult version came face to face with his teenage self he was able to overcome Kang’s control. He sacrificed himself and defeated Kang. He died a hero.

Teenage Tony Stark continued to fight with The Avengers and managed to take back control of Stark International. Shortly after this the mutant Onslaught appeared. He and many of the world’s superheroes fought this monster in New York City’s Central Park. There Iron Man, The Fantastic Four, The Mighty Thor, The Incredible Hulk, and other hero’s lost their lives. But luckily they were brought back in a pocket universe created by Reed and Sue Richards’ son, Franklin. When this occurred he became an older Anthony Stark. When the heroes returned to the normal universe Tony gained the knowledge of both Teenage Tony and the dead Adult Tony but also his health problems. ...

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

That's kinda what I said on Page one, Geko... It's Franklin's fault... so the root of ALL troubles in the MU can be traced to Franklin and/or Wanda... thanks for the more detailed x-planation...
Peter should be a 2 year old... forever... no spider powers...no super villains... all that he has to worry about is potty trainng...

 

[dan1]

This is ridiculous. If written right, Peter can grow old using the 7 year method or any slow againg method all the way to old age.

That's what Ulimate Spider-Man was supposed to be for(or should be)!!!!! To keep a young one while exploring maturity and getting old with Peter's core fans (who I do believe the majority have left adolescence), should be the whole/only point for having two Spider-Men.

My favorite time for Spider-Man, so many different ages to choose from. I'd say when he was with Black Cat for one, and Early Marraige to MJ.

But really there were so many great times. I was a Web of Spider-Man junkie too. So I really enjoyed him taking off as an international Photographer for awhile.

You CAN'T pigeon-hole Spider-Mans' age because, to be honest, the Spider-Man phenomena keeps growing in popularity every year, but the core reader of 616 universe SPider-Man is aging, like it or not, and any way to try to sell young, hasn't really worked.

When I was freaking 8 years old I enjoyed a Spider-Man that was much much older than me. When I was 13 he was already Married. I was HAPPY for him!!!!!

Even though doing that myself was the furthest thing from my mind!

Dammitt! Everyone wants to be Spider-Man. Get over it. Let the 616 one grow up within continuity and let the Ultimate one stay young forever!!!!!

That is not hard logic to swallow or follow.

 

[Gregatron]

I don't even know why we bother trying to reply to this guy, aside from the fact that it is so satisfying to so utterly prove someone wrong that their responses consist of nothing more than putting words in your mouth followed by 'blah blah blah.'

Basically, this clown's idea of an ace Spider-Man comic is if we take the first
100 or so issues of ASM, and loop them end to end for enternity, reprinting them for each new generation. Then Spidey will never change and Gregatron can sleep soundly. Then we can also call up all the radio stations and have them play some Elvis and Beatles tunes and pretend that they're brand new because music shouldn't change either. Then I'm calling the nearest theatre and insisting they play Casblanca and only Casablanca from now on, because I only want to enjoy things while they are in their original and purest forms.

This guys has contradicted himself so many times I have to reread the author of the reply to tell if it is him posting or someone arguing against him. "You can make a million versions of Spider-Man but it won't sell well!" What do you care if it sells well? You don't care about Marvel remember? You're just loyal to Spider-Man, and by Spider-Man I mean Spider-Man circa 1960, as long as Stan is writing and as long as the issue ends in an even number and was realeased on a Tuesday, because we all know that is the ONE TRUE Spider-Man.

His replies talk about how recently authors have just done ruined everything, and that Superman was only good from 1948 to 1958. You know why? BECAUSE THAT'S HOW LONG IT TOOK FOR SOMEONE TO REALIZE THAT THE SAME OLD THING IS BORING AND PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO LAP IT UP LIKE YOU DO!

Come on, you can't even think for yourself. This whole thread is based on how Iron Man is 20. NO ONE THINKS HE IS 20! And why do you think he's twenty? "Duh... I dunno, I tink I heard sumbuddy say dat before" Hey Gregatron, where did you come up with these stupid ideas and can you summarize them in a coherent way? "Duh... nope, bud here's sumting frum annuder bord dat I wunce read" And what is your response to these counter arguments that plainly defeat your flimsly plagiarized theories? "Duh... so whut if dat makes more sense, tell me sumting diffwent, blah blah blah"

Thanks for your awesome contribution to this site, I mean, you must be right, you didn't even use any curse words! The true sign of a genius! "Consistency is victory!" No, I think what you meant was "Stupidity is futility".

Sigh. As I said, I read some Iron Man fans talking about Stark's current age. If that's wrong, correct me.


Breaking new ground is good. Being untrue to the characters is not. Pillaging old stories instead of creating is not.

 

[Geko]

This is ridiculous. If written right, Peter can grow old using the 7 year method or any slow againg method all the way to old age.

That's what Ulimate Spider-Man was supposed to be for(or should be)!!!!! To keep a young one while exploring maturity and getting old with Peter's core fans (who I do believe the majority have left adolescence), should be the whole/only point for having two Spider-Men.

My favorite time for Spider-Man, so many different ages to choose from. I'd say when he was with Black Cat for one, and Early Marraige to MJ.

But really there were so many great times. I was a Web of Spider-Man junkie too. So I really enjoyed him taking off as an international Photographer for awhile.

You CAN'T pigeon-hole Spider-Mans' age because, to be honest, the Spider-Man phenomena keeps growing in popularity every year, but the core reader of 616 universe SPider-Man is aging, like it or not, and any way to try to sell young, hasn't really worked.

When I was freaking 8 years old I enjoyed a Spider-Man that was much much older than me. When I was 13 he was already Married. I was HAPPY for him!!!!!

Even though doing that myself was the furthest thing from my mind!

Dammitt! Everyone wants to be Spider-Man. Get over it. Let the 616 one grow up within continuity and let the Ultimate one stay young forever!!!!!

That is not hard logic to swallow or follow.

Two problems.
Sure he could age if written well, but then Marvel would eventually lose him as a character. And they'd have to age all their other characters too, so they'd have to invent all new characters to take over the 616 universe. They don't want to do that. They're a business, and Spidey is their flagship character.
Next problem, Ultimate Spidey will NOT stay young forever. He's in high school, so they'll want to write about summer vacation and homecoming and prom and eventually people will start to say, Hey, how come he's been on summer vacation 7 times!! Shouldn't he graduate??? So he'll graduate and go to college, and become an adult.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Bendis is actually fairly determined to keep USM in high school fer quite a while. I think only six months've passed in there or somethin'.

 

[Gregatron]

The absolutely classic example of how to run things is The Simpsons. And don't give me the usual "apples and oranges" excuses.

The characters are frozen in time, yet still celebrating birthdays, holidays, etc. The illusion of growth and change keeps things fresh via the addition of new characters and events.


Nobody wants to see a show with Bart in college and Homer in a nursing home, and then get a "Simpsons Unlimited" series featuring young versions of the characters running at the same time.

No fans demand that the cast of one Simpsons series age and change, while the other stays young.

The one, good, all-ages show being produced works perfectly fine.


The only reason Ultimate Spider-Man exists is because Marvel realized that it goofed up by aging and changing Spider-Man away from his most basic concept.


Wait and see. Once mainstream Marvel Universe Spider-Man dies painfully, fans will begin to demand that Ultimate Spider-Man age and change. Then, after Ultimate Spider-Man is wrecked, someone will come along with the brilliant idea to start a new Spider-Man series which features Spidey as a teenager again, as opposed to the 30-year old seen in Ulitmate Spider-Man.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Last time I checked Simpsons wasn't as popular as it used to be.

 

[Gregatron]

Last time I checked Simpsons wasn't as popular as it used to be.

True.

But the basic concept still works marvelously.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

But see, failing interest means th' idea has gone stale, which means it's no longer workin'. Which's why comics have to change 'cause nobody's gonna stick around fer 40 years with th' EXACT same stories. I know you have somethin' against long-term fans, but simple fact is without them Simpsons wouldn't even be on anymore.

 

[Gregatron]

But see, failing interest means th' idea has gone stale, which means it's no longer workin'. Which's why comics have to change 'cause nobody's gonna stick around fer 40 years with th' EXACT same stories. I know you have somethin' against long-term fans, but simple fact is without them Simpsons wouldn't even be on anymore.

I'm not talking about the exact same stories. I'm talking about the exact same characters.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Th' exact same characters where th' exact same stories an' situations are repeated. There are variations, but there's only so much you can do with a 10 year old Bart.

 

[Gregatron]

Th' exact same characters where th' exact same stories an' situations are repeated. There are variations, but there's only so much you can do with a 10 year old Bart.

Parry! Thrust! Spin! Thrust!

Stir, whip, stir, whip, whip, whip, stir!

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Problem is you've got yer mind made up and locked so you can't fathom a new idea or reasoning. Yer dead set on this one path which's why people get frustrated with you. You gotta be able to bend and see things on th' other side of th' fence once in a while then adjust yer own views accordingly. That's th' nature of th' thing.

Consistency isn't victory, it just avoids hypocracy. But acceptance and consideration is intelligent.

 

[Gregatron]

Problem is you've got yer mind made up and locked so you can't fathom a new idea or reasoning. Yer dead set on this one path which's why people get frustrated with you. You gotta be able to bend and see things on th' other side of th' fence once in a while then adjust yer own views accordingly. That's th' nature of th' thing.

Consistency isn't victory, it just avoids hypocracy. But acceptance and consideration is intelligent.

Stir, whip, stir, whip, whip, whip, stir, BEAT!

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I am tryin' very hard to keep my patience with you, but you refuse to make it easy.

 

[Gregatron]

I am tryin' very hard to keep my patience with you, but you refuse to make it easy.

Are you referring to the pop culture reference I just made, or the fact that my opinions are as inflexible as yours?

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Yer incessant sound effects.

And mine ain't inflexible, bub. If they were I woulda stayed on th' bandwagon of hatin' th' idea of Spidey's organic shooters in th' movie. Flexibility expands th' mind. Try it sometime.

 

[Gregatron]

Yer incessant sound effects.QUOTE]


I guess you're not a fan of Donald Duck or Star Wars...