Fant4stic Michael B Jordan is "Flame On!" The Human Torch - Part 2

[Flint Marko]

Iron Man has many great villains. Marvel has barely scratched the surface. Granted, Marvel took a mulligan on Whiplash and Mandarin and gave us the REAL Whiplash on Agents of SHIELD, then teased a real Mandarin in All Hail the King.

We still haven't see the second Iron Monger (Zeke Stane), Living Laser, Madame Masque, Ghost, Spymaster, Ultimo or Fin Fang Foom.

And Iron Man IS a big name character. Two animated series, a starring role in two Avengers animated series, cameo appearances in another Avengers series, cameo appearances in the 90s Spider-Man animated series, etc. He is a big character.

The FF sell well in sporadic bursts when there's a great writer. After John Byrne left, the FF weren't popular until Chris Claremont took control a decade later, then they lost popularity for two years until Mark Waid took control, then dipped in popularity again until Jonathan Hickman was writing them. Hickman stopped in 2012 and FF sales haven't been all that great since.

And the only reason why you feel that the FF are a bigger property than Iron Man is because the 90s weren't kind to the Avengers. (The 80s at least had John Byrne's West Coast Avengers.) Iron Man's solo title worked until Terry Kavenaugh decided to run it into the ground in 1995 while also ruining the Avengers and Force Works (the rebranded West Coast Avengers) with The Crossing which was followed up by heroes Reborn.

Starting in 1998, Marvel started a good, long period of excellent Avengers stories (minus Chuck Austen) and they've been A-list since the early 2000s. The FF are notable for being the first popular Marvel book since Captain America but they are far from the most popular Marvel team there is.

They might be A-list in the Marvel universe but the Avengers (Iron Man included) have not been considered A-list heroes to the general public up until the movies. When Marvel announced their original slate of Iron Man, Thor, Cap, and the Hulk, an article the next day in the Hollywood press was headlined "Marvel rolls out the B-Team", because nobody thought it would work. They were not bankable, well known heroes so to pretend that Iron Man and the Avengers were all A-list heroes that were on par with Batman, Spider-man, etc, up until the movies isn't true at all.
I'd say they are now A-listers, but certainly not before the MCU.

Not what will work in an FF movie made for you. I feel you.

And as you can see from the rest of the internet, I'm far from alone in feeling this way.

 

[Nemeres]

You guys are loud, sure.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Any change or embellishment to the characters has been an improvement and an addition to the mythos, adding onto what worked previously and giving it a new spin for the silver screen that can make it accessible to modern audiences.

Lawd. This basically translates to "it's okay when Marvel does it".

How is them changing Heimdall to a black man an improvement that gives it 'a new spin to modern audiences' but THE EXACT SAME THING with this movie isn't?

And character importance means nothing, change is change.

The issue is that things shouldn't be changed not that they shouldn't be changed for certain characters as that muddles the principle by drawing lines on who it's okay to change and who it's not and there would never be an agreement as fans rank characters differently.
What might be a character that one views is okay to change another might consider as the one character they want changed the least

 

[Flint Marko]

Lawd. This basically translates to "it's okay when Marvel does it".

How is them changing Heimdall to a black man an improvement that gives it 'a new spin to modern audiences' but THE EXACT SAME THING with this movie isn't?

And character importance means nothing, change is change.

The issue is that things shouldn't be changed not that they shouldn't be changed for certain characters as that muddles the principle by drawing lines on who it's okay to change and who it's not and there would never be an agreement as fans rank characters differently.
What might be a character that one views is okay to change another might consider as the one character they want changed the least

Clearly you have not been paying attention to what I've been saying so I'll once again repeat myself: my issue is not at all with Johnny being black, but that Johnny and Sue are different races and therefore no longer related. And on top of that it was a change made only to accommodate Trank casting his pal from his only other film.
See how that isn't exactly a well thought out, meaningful story decision? See how they haphazardly changed the backstory to fit Trank's "vision" of working with his buddy again? Isn't it a little understandable that does not sit well with some people?

 

[pavlov]

Clearly you have not been paying attention to what I've been saying so I'll once again repeat myself: my issue is not at all with Johnny being black, but that Johnny and Sue are different races and therefore no longer related.

Take note everybody : adopted children are not really part of a family, especially when the kids' race is different to the adopting family. Someone should break the news to the jolie-pitt clan.

 

[Flint Marko]

Take note everybody : adopted children are not really part of a family, especially when the kids' race is different to the adopting family. Someone should break the news to the jolie-pitt clan.

I can't help but wonder, are you even trying to understand my argument or are you just disagreeing with me as a knee jerk reaction? Everything I have said is sensible and inoffensive.
Sue and Johnny are no longer related, therefore their backstory is completely different. This is an unnecessary change made solely because Trank wants his friend in the movie. Everything I have just said is 100% true.
Not only that, but I have said numerous times that this is something I could easily look past if the movie had other things going for it but alas, this is just another item on the long list of liberties Trank is taking with the source material.
At no point have I belittled adoption, interracial families, or anything of the sort. It's clear to me that a few posters want to disagree with any criticism aimed towards this film no matter what, even if it means putting words into other people's mouths, so I'm about to leave this thread for good to save myself the trouble of having to spell out my inoffensive and sensible opinion for the millionth time.

 

[Nemeres]

At no point have I belittled adoption, interracial families, or anything of the sort. It's clear to me that a few posters want to disagree with any criticism aimed towards this film no matter what, even if it means putting words into other people's mouths, so I'm about to leave this thread for good to save myself the trouble of having to spell out my inoffensive and sensible opinion for the millionth time.

If said criticism is simply "Johnny and Sue no longer share DNA!", don't be surprised if it's not a big deal to everyone. Thor can fly. Boom, I believe it. Johnny's dad adopted and raised a white girl. Boom, again. The complaint that it's not like the comics is valid and all, but it only carries you so far. And for a lot of people, that point is long past.

 

[Dasher10]

If said criticism is simply "Johnny and Sue no longer share DNA!", don't be surprised if it's not a big deal to everyone. Thor can fly. Boom, I believe it. Johnny's dad adopted and raised a white girl. Boom, again. The complaint that it's not like the comics is valid and all, but it only carries you so far. And for a lot of people, that point is long past.

Honestly, that's the big problem for most people.

My main issues are that there is no indication that Johnny will have a sense of humor, Reed will alternate between aloof and annoying and Ben will be grumpy while Sue keeps them working together. Meanwhile, Doom is an egomaniac who overcompensates for his inferiority complex by always needing to prove the he is superior to all around him for the sake of his pride.

For all we know, Reed will wind up being a happy go lucky goofball known for being personable, Johnny will be a serious stoic hero, Sue will be emotionally unstable and Ben will be stern yet upbeat and always keep a smile on his face. Meanwhile, Doom is apologetic and shy and tends to avoid conflict.

The latter is not the Fantastic Four or at least not the Fantastic Four that I want to see. We know nothing about the characters personalities and that may very well be what we're getting.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

I want that too but if in the end it is different it doesn't automatically mean bad.

Afterall Stark wasn't a sarcastic character until the movies, Starlord isn't a cocky guy who likes to bust into dance in the comics, Xavier wasn't a full-haired flirtatious character in the comics but audiences liked these characteristics so it didn't matter than it was different than the comics

 

[pavlov]

At no point have I belittled adoption, interracial families, or anything of the sort. It's clear to me that a few posters want to disagree with any criticism aimed towards this film no matter what, even if it means putting words into other people's mouths, so I'm about to leave this thread for good to save myself the trouble of having to spell out my inoffensive and sensible opinion for the millionth time.

What if Sue was adopted right at a very young age, knowing only the Storm family as being her own? What if it she had always known and looked at Johnny to be her brother and vice versa? She has been fed, clothed, cared for and has lived and loved in this home, in this family. And yet you hastily conclude that there's no way for them to validly "related" because their skin colors don't match. But of course you're not being offensive. You're just being an angry fanboy, am i right?

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Everything I have said is sensible and inoffensive.
Sue and Johnny are no longer related.

You don't seem to understand the problem people have with with your statements.

You've repeatedly said that Johnny and Sue aren't related and fail to realise how offensive and belittling such a statement is. You are saying that adopted families aren't real families as they aren't really related.

I don't think you are intending to cause offence, perhaps your understanding of related is incorrect.

Here's the definition of "related"

• Belonging in the same family, group or type; Connected

So you see being related doesn't just mean by blood it means the relationships and connection people can have.

For instance The Thing is considered a member of the F4 Family but he is not blood related to any of them. He's considered part of the family because of his connection and relationship to them. Franklin and Valeria call him Uncle Ben not because he's biologically their Uncle but because he fulfils the same role

 

[TeeKay]

This thread eeiisshh.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I think Jordan shows a lot of flair for the role. And Jamie Bell is a rock solid actor.

I am less convinced of Miles Teller as Reed; seems like a stretch. And I have been blind to anything Mara brings.

 

[Kelly]

ONE MORE TIME, AND GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEADS.....because I am not repeating it again.

1. People wanted Sue and Johnny to be brother, sister from same mom, same dad as they are in the comics. They want as closer adaptation from the comics, THAT IS ALL....

2. If you disagree? FINE, but do not make it MORE THAN THAT, so that you can be horrendously pissed at their lack of social mores and their belittling of a family dynamic.

THEY SIMPLY WANT A CLOSER ADAPTATION TO THE COMIC THEY GREW UP WITH....this happens ALL OVER THE HYPE, ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

You may agree or disagree with it, you may be fine with this adaptation, they aren't...CLUE IN AND GET OVER IT.


LOOK HOW EASY IT IS...

You don't like their adaptation of the family dynamic? I kind of like this new take on it, not sure of their chemistry on screen, but I think its cool that are bringing new take to it.


WOW, HOW SIMPLE...

 

[The Guard]

The Fantastic Four has always been something of a surrogate family unit. And Johnny and Sue being from different actual families, but bonding in that sense? I dunno, I get wanting comic book fidelity, but I find that concept a lot more powerful and interesting and relevant than simply "blood relations. Have pretty much no issues.

 

[cronosred]

The Fantastic Four has always been something of a surrogate family unit. And Johnny and Sue being from different actual families, but bonding in that sense? I dunno, I get wanting comic book fidelity, but I find that concept a lot more powerful and interesting and relevant than simply "blood relations. Have pretty much no issues.

That's great your looking forward to that but I wonder if people would still be as open if Black Panthor was changed to an adopted white, mexican, or asian guy for no other reasons than the actor and director are friends.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

That's great your looking forward to that but I wonder if people would still be as open if Black Panthor was changed to an adopted white, mexican, or asian guy for no other reasons than the actor and director are friends.

You mean like Afro-Latino? That would be cool.

The same way Hollywood gets Japanese to play Chinese or Koreans and no one bats an eye?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

That's great your looking forward to that but I wonder if people would still be as open if Black Panthor was changed to an adopted white, mexican, or asian guy for no other reasons than the actor and director are friends.

Poor comparison. Panther's culture and identity is tied to his race. Is Storm's?

 

[Kelly]

Poor comparison. Panther's culture and identity is tied to his race. Is Storm's?

No, but as a piece of art, which they are, there is a tie to that, and that is what many fans of the comics want to see, they want the art of their favorite comicbook come to life on the big screen, as it is seen in their fav comic book.

 

[cronosred]

Poor comparison. Panther's culture and identity is tied to his race. Is Storm's?

It's not a poor comparison, it just needs a little reworking to make it work thus adding another layer to his story just like what was done with this film.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

It's not a poor comparison, it just needs a little reworking to make it work thus adding another layer to his story just like what was done with this film.

Like a reworked Japanese Godzilla for Americans?

 

[Paradox1]

You know what is wrong with that "if they change T'Challa to white, lets see how you like it" argument.It's like they are trying to spite you, and that seems personal. When the truth is, I really wouldn't care one way or the other.

 

[cronosred]

Like a reworked Japanese Godzilla for Americans?

An American Godzilla? Can you imagine? He would probably either be overweight or bare little resemblance to the character people have come to know. But I'm sure any change the studio and director would want to make would be welcomed plus make for a better film.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

You know what is wrong with that "if they change T'Challa to white, lets see how you like it" argument.It's like they are trying to spite you, and that seems personal. When the truth is, I really wouldn't care one way or the other.

Nah. Some part is genuine dislike for difference between book and adaptation.

That happens with everything adapted.

Jessica Alba has pale skin, but she's Latina and Evans is white. They are about as much siblings as Mara and MBJ.(yes there are white latinos).

But it's hard to separate this FF movie from the larger Hollywood casting non-sense that white actors benefit from 99% of the time.

In the Godzilla analogy....

A story featuring minority characters is reworked for an American setting and erases the character's metaphor, not for updating it(Japan exist, the bomb still happened), but because Hollywood studios don't want to promote minority actors.

So no. I wouldn't get upset that some genetically gifted white dude named Chris has to settle for auditioning for one of the 20 other blockbuster films cause a black dude took the fourth slot in one movie.

 

[cronosred]

You know what is wrong with that "if they change T'Challa to white, lets see how you like it" argument.It's like they are trying to spite you, and that seems personal. When the truth is, I really wouldn't care one way or the other.

I'm not trying to spite anyone, I'm just pointing out how people become hypocritical when situations are changed about. You can change any white character to be another race and even change their histories around but if it's a black character there is no way you can change things because their culture and identities are tied to their race.