Michael B Jordan is "Flame On!" The Human Torch - Part 2

[RAE072]

When did tradition and always suddenly have the same meaning?

How fine a hair do you want to split?

 

[TheComicbookKid]

How fine a hair do you want to split?

Was that hair always that way?

 

[Joe Rockhead]

It's no secret, every black hero or character for that matter in the marvel universe has been a supporting character so far.

I take it you mean the Marvel Cinematic Universe - which I'd agree. That will change with The Black Panther film and the Luke Cage Netflix series.

Of course that doesn't include Blade, but he had a live action appearance long before Iron Man and Thor.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

In the movie he came across as just tagging along after BW and Cap asked.

Uh, no. Nat and Steve come to Sam for help because they trust him. Then he explicitly volunteers his aid several times despite being told it's not his fight.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Uh, no. Nat and Steve come to Sam for help because they trust him. Then he explicitly volunteers his aid several times despite being told it's not his fight.

That sounds like tagging along?

-No. Don't come. We can do this. We (BW and Cap) have a plan that doesn't involve you but we need a place to recoup.

-Nah, I'm in.


Black Widow in the Marvel CU is more important. That's why she took the female lead role instead of Sharon and moved ahead of Falcon. I understand that, it's part of why it's a good movie but barely resembles TWS storyline.

 

[cronosred]

Winter Soldier made me wish we would get a Falcon solo film.

 

[Flint Marko]

That sounds like tagging along?

-No. Don't come. We can do this. We (BW and Cap) have a plan that doesn't involve you but we need a place to recoup.

-Nah, I'm in.


Black Widow in the Marvel CU is more important. That's why she took the female lead role instead of Sharon and moved ahead of Falcon. I understand that, it's part of why it's a good movie but barely resembles TWS storyline.

If you're going to take issue with it barely resembling the TWS storyline then it's odd that you're defending this film when it barely resembles any incarnation of the FF.
Once again, I'm fine with changes from the source material but not when they are made merely for the sake of change. Oh I want to cast my buddy as one of the main characters in this comic book adaption, but he doesn't at all physically resemble the character. No matter, I'll come up with a whole new backstory for him and his family for no real reason!

 

[Dasher10]

Winter Soldier made me wish we would get a Falcon solo film.

If it means anything to you, Falcon will probably be part of both Civil War and Infinity War Part 1. In fact, I'm expecting that for the first part of Infinity War, the Avengers will all be dead but be replaced with similar characters after Thanos kills half the universe.

Iron Man --> War Machine
Captain America --> Winter Soldier (although he becomes Cap)
Black Widow --> Mockingbird
Hulk --> Luke Cage
Hawkeye --> Falcon
Thor --> Doctor Strange
Nick Fury --> Black Panther

Vision, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch will be the only returning members.

And based on the original story, neither Hawkeye nor Falcon were part of it and that role was filled by Spider-Man and Falcon will probably be the guy beaten to death with a rock. Luke Cage will get Hulk's death. Quicksilver will get Thor's death and Doctor Strange will get his normal death. Black Panther will get Wolverine's death. Black Widow remained on Earth but Mockingbird will presumably be part of the attack on Thanos. Moon Knight's role will be excised entirely. War Machine will get decapitated. Winter Soldier will be the only man left standing but will still die. Doctor Doom's role will be replaced by Baron Zemo or Kingpin.

And yes, everyone will return to life at the end.

And in Infinity War, EVERYONE will return to fight Magus. The Age of Ultron team Plus the Infinity War Part 1 team. That and the other Defenders who aren't Luke Cage (Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Misty Knight, Iron Fist and Colleen Wing), Carol Danvers, the Inhumans, the Guardians and even Baron Zemo will assemble Hydra and Kingpin will assemble The Hand. ALL HANDS ON DECK.

TL;DR, we'll still be getting plenty of Falcon.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

If you're going to take issue with it barely resembling the TWS storyline then it's odd that you're defending this film when it barely resembles any incarnation of the FF.

Um, no. I've said before, I don't expect these movies to resemble the comics cause they never do.

DOFP and FC are X-men movies that look nothing like their sources.
Same with TWS and that "Mandarin".
Nolan's Batman is Nolan interpretation.
MOS is the Lois knows/depressing/neck-snapping Superman story I never wanted to see.

I've never seen this mythical "straight out the comics" everyone else seems to.

So I ask the same question in reverse, I find it odd people attack this film when those movies don't resemble their comics but this is FFINO.

 

[Flint Marko]

Um, no. I've said before, I don't expect these movies to resemble the comics cause they never do.

DOFP and FC are X-men movies that look nothing like their sources.
Same with TWS and that "Mandarin".
Nolan's Batman is Nolan interpretation.
MOS is the Lois knows/depressing/neck-snapping Superman story I never wanted to see.

I've never seen this mythical "straight out the comics" everyone else seems to.

So I ask the same question in reverse, I find it odd people attack this film when those movies don't resemble their comics but this is FFINO.

There are plenty of movies that respect the source material and are massively successful. Nearly every Marvel studios film has, almost without question, captured the spirit of the books and done right by the fans. Any change or embellishment to the characters has been an improvement and an addition to the mythos, adding onto what worked previously and giving it a new spin for the silver screen that can make it accessible to modern audiences. You can call me a fanboy all you want, but there's almost no debating that. That is why they are so massively successful with the general audience and fans alike, because they embrace what makes these characters work.
FFINO does the opposite. Instead of taking what has been working in the books for decades, they throw everything out the window just for the hell of it and give it a "lo-fi, gritty spin" even though that is not what will work for a FF movie. So to say you aren't expecting this to be loyal to the source material because "no movies ever do", is intellectually dishonest.

 

[Paradox1]

It wasn't even that, Falcon in the comic is Cap's sounding board and equal.

In the movie he came across as just tagging along after BW and Cap asked.

Story's Torch was a clown for clown sake. We got no sense of what his and Sue'
s relationship was based on. It didn't matter what skin tone similarities they had.

He did decide to come with them pretty quickly but I can forgive it because of the time restraints.

Tim Story's FF were horrible in a lot of aspects one of the worst being their relationship. They didn't work, they never felt like brother and sister in the least. They were truly brother and sister in name only.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

There are plenty of movies that respect the source material and are massively successful. Nearly every Marvel studios film has, almost without question, captured the spirit of the books and done right by the fans. Any change or embellishment to the characters has been an improvement and an addition to the mythos, adding onto what worked previously and giving it a new spin for the silver screen that can make it accessible to modern audiences. You can call me a fanboy all you want, but there's almost no debating that. That is why they are so massively successful with the general audience and fans alike, because they embrace what makes these characters work.
FFINO does the opposite. Instead of taking what has been working in the books for decades, they throw everything out the window just for the hell of it and give it a "lo-fi, gritty spin" even though that is not what will work for a FF movie. So to say you aren't expecting this to be loyal to the source material because "no movies ever do", is intellectually dishonest.

But how do you know that until after you've seen something?

Wasn't Kryptonite invented in the radio show and then crossed into the comics? (Cause of radio's limitation and not anything to do with the comics.)

The crystalized Krypton that has been duplicated so many times wasn't something pulled from the comics. Neither was the "Jesus" allegory of leaving and returning as a grown man.

I mean, people didn't just say "why is he putting his Christian 'Jesus' on my 'Moses' story?


I'm not saying people can't have gut instincts. I'm not seeing Jupiter Ascending for that reason.

Have your fanboy(I didn't call you that) instinct and desires, but I rather not be called not a fan of the FF just cause I want to see if this has some crystal Krypton/kryptonite/Jimmy Olsen ideas up its sleeves.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

That sounds like tagging along?

-No. Don't come. We can do this. We (BW and Cap) have a plan that doesn't involve you but we need a place to recoup.

-Nah, I'm in.


Black Widow in the Marvel CU is more important. That's why she took the female lead role instead of Sharon and moved ahead of Falcon. I understand that, it's part of why it's a good movie but barely resembles TWS storyline.

That's inaccurate. Nat and Steve didn't want Sam involved because it would put unnecessary heat on him, not because his help wasn't required.

Sam was the one backing up Cap in the field during the final battle, who Cap confided in about his personal issues, who sat by his bedside in the hospital, and who stuck by him in the end when he went after Bucky. Hardly the profile of an extraneous tag along.

 

[Flint Marko]

But how do you know that until after you've seen something?

Wasn't Kryptonite invented in the radio show and then crossed into the comics?

The crystalized Krypton that has been duplicated so many times wasn't something pulled from the comics. Neither was the "Jesus" allegory of leaving and returning as a grown man.

I mean, people didn't just say "why is he putting his Christian 'Jesus' on my 'Moses' story?


I'm not saying people can't have gut instincts. I'm not seeing Jupiter Ascending for that reason.

Have your fanboy(I didn't call you that) instinct and desires, but I rather not be called not a fan of the FF just cause I want to see if this has some crystal Krypton/kryptonite/Jimmy Olsen ideas up its sleeves.

You and I both know that we've seen and heard enough for us long-time fans to know that this is a far cry from any current incarnation of the FF.
You can wait and see if there is something in this movie that you will like, I truly hope you enjoy the movie, but don't try and pretend that what we want is unattainable by saying that no studio properly adapts the source material.
Also, for your kryptonite analogy: kryptonite was not a drastic 180 degree turn in the other direction for Superman. It was an addition to the mythos that ended up aiding it long term; everything that we have seen from this movie shows that they have been taking away what makes the source material great and replacing it with something different.

 

[Dasher10]

There are plenty of movies that respect the source material and are massively successful. Nearly every Marvel studios film has, almost without question, captured the spirit of the books and done right by the fans. Any change or embellishment to the characters has been an improvement and an addition to the mythos, adding onto what worked previously and giving it a new spin for the silver screen that can make it accessible to modern audiences. You can call me a fanboy all you want, but there's almost no debating that. That is why they are so massively successful with the general audience and fans alike, because they embrace what makes these characters work.
FFINO does the opposite. Instead of taking what has been working in the books for decades, they throw everything out the window just for the hell of it and give it a "lo-fi, gritty spin" even though that is not what will work for a FF movie. So to say you aren't expecting this to be loyal to the source material because "no movies ever do", is intellectually dishonest.

Malekith was not a faithful adaptation of the character.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

That's inaccurate. Nat and Steve didn't want Sam involved because it would put unnecessary heat on him, not because his help wasn't required.

Sam was the one backing up Cap in the field during the final battle, who Cap confided in about his personal issues, who sat by his bedside in the hospital, and who stuck by him in the end when he went after Bucky. Hardly the profile of an extraneous tag along.

When people say BW has agency, it's because her character makes decision that affect her. Working behind Cap's back on the boat had nothing to do with Cap. It's about her and Fury. Letting the cat out of the bag was her choice.

Falcon appeared in reaction to Cap. Cap's hurt-go to him. Cap needs to talk- listen. Cap is going to battle-follow him.

I hoped the let's go after Bucky would lead to him having more one-one but now it's Civil War and I'm less hopeful.

I hope they actually go into the dynamic of Sue, Johnny, and Franklin as a family in relation to how they have a dynamic in the FF.

 

[Flint Marko]

Malekith was not a faithful adaptation of the character.

Neither was the Mandarin, or the Frost Giants, or Whiplash, etc.
Know what these all have in common?
They aren't big characters.
The Fantastic Four, Dr. Doom? Those are big characters.
Also you apparently did not read my post closely, I said Marvel does a great job of sticking to the spirit of the source material. That doesn't mean taking everything from the page exactly as is and putting it on the screen, it means adapting it properly so that the source material is respected.
That doesn't equate to turning the villains into anti-social blogging programmers.

 

[Dasher10]

Neither was the Mandarin, or the Frost Giants, or Whiplash, etc.
Know what these all have in common?
They aren't big characters.
The Fantastic Four, Dr. Doom? Those are big characters.
Also you apparently did not read my post closely, I said Marvel does a great job of sticking to the spirit of the source material. That doesn't mean taking everything from the page exactly as is and putting it on the screen, it means adapting it properly so that the source material is respected.
That doesn't equate to turning the villains into anti-social blogging programmers.

Mandarin IS a big character.

And Doom as a computer programmer could work since Doom knows a LOT about robotics and AI. The Doombots are a key part of his character.

 

[Flint Marko]

Mandarin IS a big character.

And Doom as a computer programmer could work since Doom knows a LOT about robotics and AI. The Doombots are a key part of his character.

No, he isn't. He's the most impressive character in Iron Man's unimpressive rogues gallery, but he is nowhere near the level of numerous other Marvel villains.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

You and I both know that we've seen and heard enough for us long-time fans to know that this is a far cry from any current incarnation of the FF.

Or it could end up somewhat similar by taking a different route?

Superman snapping Zod's neck can still end up with the no kill Superman just now he had to cross the line instead of starting at it.

Not what I would like or done if it were my movie but I also wouldn't have Batman's Joe Chill killed like that instead of being a faceless murder he can't find.

The same reason I watch Arrow where he's trained by Slade on the island and not isolated.

You can wait and see if there is something in this movie that you will like, I truly hope you enjoy the movie, but don't try and pretend that what we want is unattainable by saying that no studio properly adapts the source material.
Also, for your kryptonite analogy: kryptonite was not a drastic 180 degree turn in the other direction for Superman. It was an addition to the mythos that ended up aiding it long term; everything that we have seen from this movie shows that they have been taking away what makes the source material great and replacing it with something different.

"Ended up" as in you had to wait and see? As in "I ended up enjoy myself despite not wanting to go to the park earlier in the day."

What's great about the comics don't always translate. Not because it's bad. Sometimes because of the times we live in i.e. HERBIE or Turtles not being R-rated.

Sometimes different stuff happens because Joker having a Harley Quinn just works. Why didn't he have a female crazy sidepiece before? I don't know.

Did Nolan's Joker suffer for not having her? No.

 

[Flint Marko]

Or it could end up somewhat similar by taking a different route?

Superman snapping Zod's neck can still end up with the no kill Superman just now he had to cross the line instead of starting at it.

Not what I would like or done if it were my movie but I also wouldn't have Batman's Joe Chill killed like that instead of being a faceless murder he can't find.

The same reason I watch Arrow where he's trained by Slade on the island and not isolated.

Once again, there is no talking your way out of this. This is not the FF many of us have come to know and love, plain and simple, and it most likely never will be.
You could pitch a movie idea where Peter Parker is a middle aged married man who gets bit by a radioactive spider and gains extraordinary powers, but because of the radiation he is consumed with, it kills his wife and children. This leaves him feeling heartbroken, because he knows he is guilty, and with that he learns that he must treat his powers with respect and use them for good to honor the memory of his wife and daughter.
Does that sound like an interesting movie? Maybe.
Does that sound like a good Spider-man movie? NO. NOT AT ALL.

What's great about the comics don't always translate. Not because it's bad. Sometimes because of the times we live in i.e. HERBIE or Turtles not being R-rated.

Sometimes different stuff happens because Joker having a Harley Quinn just works. Why didn't he have a female crazy sidepiece before? I don't know.

Did Nolan's Joker suffer for not having her? No.

Marvel just made a movie about a talking raccoon and a tree that fight aliens together, and turned it into one of the biggest hits of 2014. This argument is no longer valid.

 

[Dasher10]

No, he isn't. He's the most impressive character in Iron Man's unimpressive rogues gallery, but he is nowhere near the level of numerous other Marvel villains.

Iron Man has many great villains. Marvel has barely scratched the surface. Granted, Marvel took a mulligan on Whiplash and Mandarin and gave us the REAL Whiplash on Agents of SHIELD, then teased a real Mandarin in All Hail the King.

We still haven't see the second Iron Monger (Zeke Stane), Living Laser, Madame Masque, Ghost, Spymaster, Ultimo or Fin Fang Foom.

And Iron Man IS a big name character. Two animated series, a starring role in two Avengers animated series, cameo appearances in another Avengers series, cameo appearances in the 90s Spider-Man animated series, etc. He is a big character.

The FF sell well in sporadic bursts when there's a great writer. After John Byrne left, the FF weren't popular until Chris Claremont took control a decade later, then they lost popularity for two years until Mark Waid took control, then dipped in popularity again until Jonathan Hickman was writing them. Hickman stopped in 2012 and FF sales haven't been all that great since.

And the only reason why you feel that the FF are a bigger property than Iron Man is because the 90s weren't kind to the Avengers. (The 80s at least had John Byrne's West Coast Avengers.) Iron Man's solo title worked until Terry Kavenaugh decided to run it into the ground in 1995 while also ruining the Avengers and Force Works (the rebranded West Coast Avengers) with The Crossing which was followed up by heroes Reborn.

Starting in 1998, Marvel started a good, long period of excellent Avengers stories (minus Chuck Austen) and they've been A-list since the early 2000s. The FF are notable for being the first popular Marvel book since Captain America but they are far from the most popular Marvel team there is.

 

[Nemeres]

FFINO does the opposite. Instead of taking what has been working in the books for decades, they throw everything out the window just for the hell of it and give it a "lo-fi, gritty spin" even though that is not what will work for a FF movie. So to say you aren't expecting this to be loyal to the source material because "no movies ever do", is intellectually dishonest.

Not what will work in an FF movie made for you. I feel you.

 

[Orba]

Mara did audition. Trank liked her chemistry with MBJ and Teller. Unless you have evidence he never auditioned minority actresses, the Mara won her role and Sue stayed white.

I'm sure I remember looking once and in all the actresses rumoured to have been looked at for the role I could only find one that was coloured (Samira Wiley).

 

[Dasher10]

I'm sure I remember looking once and in all the actresses rumoured to have been looked at for the role I could only find one that was coloured (Samira Wiley).

So only one cared to audition. There. The point it moot now. The cast got cast because they embodied the spirit of the characters and all had a good level of chemistry with each other. It has nothing to do with Josh Trank casting Jordan because he's hyper-sensitive or casting Mara because he's prejudiced against black people.

And the Fantastic Four are far whiter than the Avengers or X-Men are in large part because their roster hasn't changed since the 60s. Even among supporting characters and villains, they're either aliens or white and for some reason, that hasn't changed in the decades since despite the Avengers and X-men getting more diverse casts. it's actually a welcome change and this is coming from somebody who usually objects to changing a character's race for an adaptation.

And there is nothing other than his relationship with Sue that says that Johnny has to be black. Johnny was made a white guy in the comics not because he had a background that demanded it but because it was treated as the default in the 60s. I'd be against casting Steve Rogers, Matt Murdoch or Magneto as anything other than white because they're defined by their heritage (Iron Fist is a borderline case since he's 1/4th Chinese but mostly white.) Human Torch doesn't have that baggage. New backstory is Sue was adopted. It's done and over with.

This is the FF we're getting regardless of the quality since Fox won't want to do another reboot so soon after this one. If it sucks, then the best case scenario is that FF2015 is Mad Max (which is barely watchable) and the sequel is The Road Warrior (which is a classic).