Mutant-phobia: a Savage Hypocrisy

MyPokerShirt said:
mutants were mainly hated becos of magneto's rantings on replacing the human race and the fact anyone could be one.

I forgot about that point. Yeah, the prospect of going the way of the Neanderthals, and the rhetoric of charismatic, obscenely powerful militant mutant supremecists are also big reasons for why the humans are so scared.

The former reason is bull$hit, depending on what you believe about what happened to the Neanderthals that made them disappear. If it's a hostile takeover, with mutants killing off the remaining humans while reproducing themselves, then that's a valid fear (but not an excuse for lashing out violently or persecuting mutants). If it's just that the new race breeds with the old one and passes on its traits to the point where the old one eventually disappears with successive generations, that's not a valid fear. If they're worried that their children, grandchildren, etc. will be oppressed by mutants down the line, that's something to consider, but if it's just a matter of the label of "normal human" disappearing, with no actual oppression, then that's completely invalid.

:wolverine
 
Chris Wallace said:
The only problem is that everyone who had mutant powers would not use them to violate the law or harm his/her fellow citizen, & many would likely view this program as treating them as though they would.

Good point.

I didn't have time before to mention that there would be a national (or global, depending on the territory I was ruling) database with fingerprints and DNA samples from every citizen and visiting immigrant. The point isn't that mutants are more predisposed towards crime, just that they're often more physically or psychically capable of it, and that's why we need their powers registered as well as their fingerprints and DNA so that if someone does commit a crime, law enforcement would be more likely to find out who it was and what their M.O. and abilities are. In that scenario, it's the same as any human citizen with weapons, except that in this case, part of the population is born with "weapons", without the choice of owning it. That's the only real difference between a potentially dangerous normal human and a potentially dangerous mutant-- one was born more dangerous, whether or not they intend to cause harm. I realize it seems unfair to make a group of people register their potentially dangerous capabilities when they didn't choose to possess them, but them's the breaks. Safety first. The procedures involved would be very closely monitored by trustworthy agents (again, this is theoretical, and I know nobody can truly be trusted to govern justly) so that the process is as humane and as dignified and convenient as possible. It wouldn't be out of hatred. Yes, it would be out of fear, but fear is what made humans create a justice system in the first place, so at the root of it all, that doesn't make it wrong.

:wolverine
 
One upshot to that would be that knowing what a mutant could do would give law enforcement a better shot at defending against it, & containing them as well.
 
Chris Wallace said:
One upshot to that would be that knowing what a mutant could do would give law enforcement a better shot at defending against it, & containing them as well.

Exactly.

:wolverine
 
I think that also, in order to give it some credibility, mutants would have to be allowed in on the enforcement end of this, just so it wouldn't look like the witchhunt many believed it to be.
 
Chris Wallace said:
I think that also, in order to give it some credibility, mutants would have to be allowed in on the enforcement end of this, just so it wouldn't look like the witchhunt many believed it to be.

Exactly. Some of the special positions in law enforcement I mentioned would be enforcing the mutant registration laws. They'd have lethal, remote controlled implants in their heads for control purposes, of course, but so would all elite officers or soldiers with high-level training and clearance, whether human or mutant. Gotta keep all the big dogs on a strong leash, you know, lest they go rogue and start blowing up buildings, like Timothy McVeigh did.

:wolverine
 
roach said:
I think the big fear of mutants comes from the fact that they will phase humanity out as the primary life form on earth. Humans are greedy and inconsiderate beings. Once humans go to being secondary citizens what is to prevent mutants from doing to them what they did to the animals. Sure the FF and Avengers have powers but at no time in the future are they gonna replace humanity.

I think you pretty much summed it up.

Mutants are basically our replacements, and humans don't take to kindly to being replaced.

Also I think it's the fact anyone, even your kid could be a mutant. It's the seeming 'Infectous' nature of mutants that scares humans, like it's only a matter of time before everyone is a mutant.

Hulk,Thing, and Spidey are products of accidents or government programs not a inbreed 'desease' that's gonna hit you or your family tree at some point.
 
Herr Logan said:
Good point.

I didn't have time before to mention that there would be a national (or global, depending on the territory I was ruling) database with fingerprints and DNA samples from every citizen and visiting immigrant. The point isn't that mutants are more predisposed towards crime, just that they're often more physically or psychically capable of it, and that's why we need their powers registered as well as their fingerprints and DNA so that if someone does commit a crime, law enforcement would be more likely to find out who it was and what their M.O. and abilities are. In that scenario, it's the same as any human citizen with weapons, except that in this case, part of the population is born with "weapons", without the choice of owning it. That's the only real difference between a potentially dangerous normal human and a potentially dangerous mutant-- one was born more dangerous, whether or not they intend to cause harm. I realize it seems unfair to make a group of people register their potentially dangerous capabilities when they didn't choose to possess them, but them's the breaks. Safety first. The procedures involved would be very closely monitored by trustworthy agents (again, this is theoretical, and I know nobody can truly be trusted to govern justly) so that the process is as humane and as dignified and convenient as possible. It wouldn't be out of hatred. Yes, it would be out of fear, but fear is what made humans create a justice system in the first place, so at the root of it all, that doesn't make it wrong.

:wolverine

Wow, I agree! Your reading my mind.
 
Herr Logan said:
These statements are both true and untrue.

Pfffttt...divorce lawyer jargon for "hand the house keys over Mr. WhatIf!!"....yes I'm bitter!!

Herr Logan said:
The basic fear of mutants in the Marvel Universe is justifiable. Mutants aren't defined by a skin color or a nationality or any of the completely irrelevant and useless categorizations we have in the real world; they are creatures who are mostly human in their psychology and may possess incredible power that normal humans can't defend against. Power tends to corrupt humans, which is why their human psychology is a threat when backed by mutant powers. In the real world, if I was President, I'd probably very strongly consider, if not outright propose, a mutant registration act or something similar. I don't trust humans, and I trust humans with power even less, so that's why it's perfectly right to fear mutants, and it isn't mere racism.

However...

The premise of this thread is that humans who came by their superpowers through artificial means are treated better than mutants, because they weren't born with a permanent status that differs genetically from the norm. That makes it racism in those cases, which clouds the issue of what is an acceptable attitude towards mutants. Personally, I wouldn't treat humans with artificially granted superpowers any differently than mutants; they're essentially the same level of threat.
J. Jonah Jameson, as an example, condemns all masked vigilantes (even Captain America to a degree, who doesn't even technically have superhuman abilities), and even non-masked vigilantes for what they do, not what they are genetically. Despite his psychotic vendetta against Spider-Man and tendency to make up stories, I'd say his behavior with regards to superheroes is a far more rational one than any human who fears mutants. If you fear all superpowered beings equally, or in proportion to their respective power levels and abilities, then it's absolutely not racism. If you see a person holding or using a gun, you fear them, whether or not they're aiming it at you. That's not prejudice, that's just common sense. You can't see the superpowered status of all mutants and enhanced humans in the Marvel Universe, but then again, you don't see all the guns people in real life are hiding somewhere, either.

It's perfectly okay to fear mutants, but that doesn't justify how people treat them. In real life not only do guns have to be registered for legal ownership, but high-level martial artists are required to register their bodies as deadly weapons. That makes a mutant registration act, barring anything further than requiring mutants to register their powers for the sake of the criminal justice system under penalty of jail/prison time, reasonable. Lynching and attacking mutants is, of course, not reasonable. There's a line between prejudice and responsibly used caution.


:wolverine

So if I could paraphrase, you're not denying that "prejudism" or "racism" (or just simple paranoia in some instances) is precipitating the human reaction to mutants brought up by "Wallace" but rather the attitude is present and in evidence because of the differing treatment superhuman non-mutants receive as opposed to Super-human mutants???.....

.....not just because Humans view mutants as threats...but because they don't feel the same way about non-mutants who could pose just as great a threat or greater?

...I tend to concur...(assuming I paraphrased you correctly)...:up:
 
WhatIfTales said:
Pfffttt...divorce lawyer jargon for "hand the house keys over Mr. WhatIf!!"....yes I'm bitter!!

:confused:

I'm sorry. :(


So if I could paraphrase, you're not denying that "prejudism" or "racism" is precipitating the human reaction to mutants brought up by "Wallace" but rather the attitude is present and in evidence because of the differing treatment superhuman non-mutants receive as opposed to Super-human mutants???.....

.....not just because Humans view mutants as threats...but because they don't feel the same way about non-mutants who could pose just as great a threat or greater?

...I tend to concur...(assuming I paraphrased you correctly)...:up:

Um... I think you paraphrased it correctly. I'm very tired, so I apologize for my puzzling lack of perfect reading comprehension.

I'm saying that there are very good reasons to fear both mutants and artificially enhanced humans, but hatred of them is unreasonable and unjustifiable. A reasonable reaction, in my not-at-all-humble opinion, is making mutants register their powers through processes that cause the least amount of pain, indignity and inconvenience. An unreasonable action is slandering, condemning, bullying and attacking mutants. The point is, there's a difference between being wary of dangerous people and being dangerous people, although the two can easily occur simultaneously.

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Um... I think you paraphrased it correctly. I'm very tired, so I apologize for my puzzling lack of perfect reading comprehension.

:wolverine

no need to apologise....I re-read what I wrote and found it hard to comprehend myself...:).....blame it on long hours...I really have to get some sleep!
 
The Mutant/Metahuman relations thing is definately a bit hypocritical; in fact, if I recall correctly, that was part of Onslaught's motives for, well, hating EVERYONE. He seemed to hate mutants because they didn't all rise up collectively and take over, and he hated most superhero metahumans because they were "loved" while mutants, paradoxically, were hated.

Granted, a major difference is in that origin. Most non-mutant superheroes got their powers from some sort of "explainable" circumstance, and things that can be explained are often less unsettling. Whereas with mutants, there is still debate over whether they're the true "evolution" of mankind, or an offshoot (like the Inhumans or the Eternals), depending on the story or editorial mandate. Secondly, most non-mutant heroes acquired their powers through either their own handiwork, or an accident. "Handiwork" heroes in a way include Iron Man or anyone inside a suit or armor, or in some cases "super-soldiers" like Captain America (after all, Steve chose to take the serum, as well as had to undergo training afterwards), or even Dr. Strange. Most heroes tend to fall under the "accident" category, from Spider-Man to the Fantastic Four to Hulk (who is an anti-hero), Daredevil, etc. "Accidental" heroes I would imagine are less threatening because they have that element of, "it could have been anyone", much like those "one in a million" shots like being struck by lightening or winning the lottery. "Handiwork" heroes, you can point to and go, "oh, well, HE made a suit of armor with his genius" or "he trained to be a super-soldier with the military" or "he sold his soul to Mephisto to save his friend" and etc.

Mutants, on the other hand, are born. You're either a mutant or you're not. Not unlike "royals" of ancient times. Complicating matters are the fact that mutants are actually a sort of "genetic minority race" who have some factions that want to dominate the world, or on a lower level are criminals. Caught in the crossfire are those mutants who just want to lead a "normal" life. The X-Men sought to provide both sanctuary and teaching to wayward mutants while at the same time improving mutant/human relations, but their strategy is usually unclear. In some incarnations, the X-Men act as superheroes much like other teams, they simply are obvious mutants trying to prove that not all mutants are bad, but are usually distrusted. Considering that many of the X-Men's dangerous enemies are conncected to them (relation to Xavier, former students/allies, committing acts to specifically lure them or some members our, etc), that muddles matters. Plus, the X-Men also spend long periods of time holed up in the mansion defending themselves from attacks and/or engaging in melodrama, thus allowing some of the more "negative" mutant influence factors more airtime.

Add to all that humanity's fear that mutants will one day overrun the planet and do to them what mankind did to other species of homo sapiens.

The matters that usually got to me was:

1). How the public always seemed to "know" which heroes were mutants and which weren't. In many cases, that becomes impossible to determine unless you know their origins intimately, which isn't the case for a lot of hereos (which is why in USM, the fact that the average citizen thinks Spidey is a mutant is rather accurate). Considering that human/mutant relations are usually so hostile that a mutant is liable to get lynched on the street (or at least have no one call the cops if a big robot attacks them), one would think that any superheroes who didn't publically explain and somehow prove their origin could in theory be mistaken for a mutant (which only happens in some recent titles, like GRAVITY).

2). How mutant/human relations, which usually tend to mirror real life race relations taken to a bit of an Nth level, never evolve or change. It usually just swings from one extreme to another. Some years, mutants are more acceptable, or at least the X-Men are. Some years mutants even have a cultural underground. And others, they're all running for their lives from lynch mobs in masks or Sentinals, and not even the liberal media (who sees any criminal who's not Caucasian as a "victim of society" most times) rises a finger to defend them. No matter how dangerous many mutants are, there'd be some people who wouldn't hate them. Hell, in the real world, dictators with nukes and fetishes for slaughtering peasants have their sympathizers.

3). Non-mutant superheroes frequently team up with the X-Men, or at least don't agree with bigotry towards mutants in general, and yet don't do a damned thing to help them. No speaches by Capt. America, no lectures from the Fantastic Four, no disapproval by Tony Stark or whatever. The only times said things usually happen is if some token "protesters" are outside Avengers Manor because the Maximoff Twins or the Beast are members that month. The X-Men are thus justified in not being terribly trusting of a lot of other heroes; no matter how many team-ups they have, they just don't have their back in the social arena.

Of course, the problem is that the bigotry angle is key to the X-Men, and without it, they simply become a soap opera with powers like most other comics. Plus, the X-Universe is frequently removed from the rest of the Marvel Universe except for crossovers or issues of MTU or a Wolverine guest-shot. Marvel historically "seperated" their universes and rarely had them mingle. The X-books do this, the Spider-books do that, the Fan Four are elsewhere, etc. So a lot of times things that happen in the X-verse don't effect the rest of the MU, and the rest of the MU doesn't usually effect the X-Men. To be fair, in the past few years, whether the stories themselves have been good or not is another matter, but some effort has been made to correct this. Still, until ONSLAUGHT in the mid 90's, the X-Universe rarely ventured into the rest of MU save for lessor crossovers or obligatory fights with other teams (like THE TRIAL OF MAGNETO or something; bet they're regretting taking a few shots for Mags now, eh?).
 
Herr Logan said:
if it's just a matter of the label of "normal human" disappearing, with no actual oppression, then that's completely invalid.

:wolverine


i dont agree with that. would you want your grandchildren to have picked up genes (so to speak) that could make them horribly disfigured, hated or dangerous? i wouldnt. i would like them to have powers however, but im guessin everybody here wants powers...
 
Dread said:
Complicating matters are the fact that mutants are actually a sort of "genetic minority race" who have some factions that want to dominate the world, or on a lower level are criminals.


minority race with a faction that wants to control the world? wow sounds like nowadays - yknow those weirdos in the east...







americans :) :P


who says comics arent relevant to modern day, huh?
 
WhatIfTales said:
no need to apologise....I re-read what I wrote and found it hard to comprehend myself...:).....blame it on long hours...I really have to get some sleep!

Okay, cool.

Sweet dreams. :up:


:wolverine
 
MyPokerShirt said:
i dont agree with that. would you want your grandchildren to have picked up genes (so to speak) that could make them horribly disfigured, hated or dangerous? i wouldnt. i would like them to have powers however, but im guessin everybody here wants powers...

I wouldn't wish for my grandchildren to be mutants, but I sure as hell wouldn't take aggressive action against the mutants of the present as an ill-conceived attempt to prevent that. You know there's no argument against that.

:wolverine
 
Not to throw things off-topic,but I've wondered for awhile now why mutants haven't been used to cure serious illnesses like cancer,AIDs,Parkinson's,etc.
 
I agree.Mutant haters like anti-Semites or other forms of racists are essentially irrational-as irrational as if I were to declare a hatred of blonde women with green eyes!

Terry
 
Abaddon said:
Not to throw things off-topic,but I've wondered for awhile now why mutants haven't been used to cure serious illnesses like cancer,AIDs,Parkinson's,etc.
You mean like labrats?
 
Dread said:
The Mutant/Metahuman relations thing is definately a bit hypocritical; in fact, if I recall correctly, that was part of Onslaught's motives for, well, hating EVERYONE. He seemed to hate mutants because they didn't all rise up collectively and take over, and he hated most superhero metahumans because they were "loved" while mutants, paradoxically, were hated.

Granted, a major difference is in that origin. Most non-mutant superheroes got their powers from some sort of "explainable" circumstance, and things that can be explained are often less unsettling. Whereas with mutants, there is still debate over whether they're the true "evolution" of mankind, or an offshoot (like the Inhumans or the Eternals), depending on the story or editorial mandate. Secondly, most non-mutant heroes acquired their powers through either their own handiwork, or an accident. "Handiwork" heroes in a way include Iron Man or anyone inside a suit or armor, or in some cases "super-soldiers" like Captain America (after all, Steve chose to take the serum, as well as had to undergo training afterwards), or even Dr. Strange. Most heroes tend to fall under the "accident" category, from Spider-Man to the Fantastic Four to Hulk (who is an anti-hero), Daredevil, etc. "Accidental" heroes I would imagine are less threatening because they have that element of, "it could have been anyone", much like those "one in a million" shots like being struck by lightening or winning the lottery. "Handiwork" heroes, you can point to and go, "oh, well, HE made a suit of armor with his genius" or "he trained to be a super-soldier with the military" or "he sold his soul to Mephisto to save his friend" and etc.

Mutants, on the other hand, are born. You're either a mutant or you're not. Not unlike "royals" of ancient times. Complicating matters are the fact that mutants are actually a sort of "genetic minority race" who have some factions that want to dominate the world, or on a lower level are criminals. Caught in the crossfire are those mutants who just want to lead a "normal" life. The X-Men sought to provide both sanctuary and teaching to wayward mutants while at the same time improving mutant/human relations, but their strategy is usually unclear. In some incarnations, the X-Men act as superheroes much like other teams, they simply are obvious mutants trying to prove that not all mutants are bad, but are usually distrusted. Considering that many of the X-Men's dangerous enemies are conncected to them (relation to Xavier, former students/allies, committing acts to specifically lure them or some members our, etc), that muddles matters. Plus, the X-Men also spend long periods of time holed up in the mansion defending themselves from attacks and/or engaging in melodrama, thus allowing some of the more "negative" mutant influence factors more airtime.

Add to all that humanity's fear that mutants will one day overrun the planet and do to them what mankind did to other species of homo sapiens.

The matters that usually got to me was:

1). How the public always seemed to "know" which heroes were mutants and which weren't. In many cases, that becomes impossible to determine unless you know their origins intimately, which isn't the case for a lot of hereos (which is why in USM, the fact that the average citizen thinks Spidey is a mutant is rather accurate). Considering that human/mutant relations are usually so hostile that a mutant is liable to get lynched on the street (or at least have no one call the cops if a big robot attacks them), one would think that any superheroes who didn't publically explain and somehow prove their origin could in theory be mistaken for a mutant (which only happens in some recent titles, like GRAVITY).

2). How mutant/human relations, which usually tend to mirror real life race relations taken to a bit of an Nth level, never evolve or change. It usually just swings from one extreme to another. Some years, mutants are more acceptable, or at least the X-Men are. Some years mutants even have a cultural underground. And others, they're all running for their lives from lynch mobs in masks or Sentinals, and not even the liberal media (who sees any criminal who's not Caucasian as a "victim of society" most times) rises a finger to defend them. No matter how dangerous many mutants are, there'd be some people who wouldn't hate them. Hell, in the real world, dictators with nukes and fetishes for slaughtering peasants have their sympathizers.

3). Non-mutant superheroes frequently team up with the X-Men, or at least don't agree with bigotry towards mutants in general, and yet don't do a damned thing to help them. No speaches by Capt. America, no lectures from the Fantastic Four, no disapproval by Tony Stark or whatever. The only times said things usually happen is if some token "protesters" are outside Avengers Manor because the Maximoff Twins or the Beast are members that month. The X-Men are thus justified in not being terribly trusting of a lot of other heroes; no matter how many team-ups they have, they just don't have their back in the social arena.

Of course, the problem is that the bigotry angle is key to the X-Men, and without it, they simply become a soap opera with powers like most other comics. Plus, the X-Universe is frequently removed from the rest of the Marvel Universe except for crossovers or issues of MTU or a Wolverine guest-shot. Marvel historically "seperated" their universes and rarely had them mingle. The X-books do this, the Spider-books do that, the Fan Four are elsewhere, etc. So a lot of times things that happen in the X-verse don't effect the rest of the MU, and the rest of the MU doesn't usually effect the X-Men. To be fair, in the past few years, whether the stories themselves have been good or not is another matter, but some effort has been made to correct this. Still, until ONSLAUGHT in the mid 90's, the X-Universe rarely ventured into the rest of MU save for lessor crossovers or obligatory fights with other teams (like THE TRIAL OF MAGNETO or something; bet they're regretting taking a few shots for Mags now, eh?).
Wow. I am overwhelmed. Really. Posts like this make me glad I started this thread. Where to start?
1-there are 4 and only 4 ways by which these superhuman characters obtain their powers; controlled science (Captain America, Scorpion), uncontrolled Science (Hulk, Spider-Man), magic (Juggernaut, Dr. Strange) and nature (mutants, aliens & as I see it, gods & demons). Of course there are combinations. But anyway, as I see it the most potentially dangerous of the 4 is controlled science. Why? Anyone who CHOOSES to make themselves more than human is already somewhat corrupt, as their craving for power obviously outweighs the risks involved. Why be more afraid of something a person can't choose? As for the public's bizarre ability ot differentiate, I have already touched on this, as I believe it to be the heart of the savage hypocrisy.
2-This reminds me of something I wondered about during X3; if some of the anti-"cure" protestors were human sympathizers. Also, there was a behind-the-scenes special on X1, centered around a Congressional hearing about mutant registration. I couldn't help but notice that everyone who vocally opposed Kelly was a Democrat & a minority, while his supporters were all white Republicans. Interesting.
3-You're absolutely right about this one. While Spider-Man's word may not count for much, having worked alongside several mutants, you'd think Cap & Iron Man would want to do more to hep them. But they don't. It could also be argued that Black Panther, a respected world leader & longtime Avenger who's about to MARRY a mutant, would want to do more for them. But he may confine the fight to Wakanda.
Aned it's also true that for the most part, they act like it doesn't exist in the other titles. But here's a great example of how it's mishandled; When Reed Richards first peeled the alien symbiote off of Spider-Man, leaving him running around in an old FF uniform & a paper bag, he stopped a robbery & was instantly mobbed by reporters. They had no idea what power he had-if any, much less how he'd gotten them, but they were ready to make him an instant celebrity. This is a fear & a hatred that is chosen.
 
MyPokerShirt said:
so we're decided? irrational? so pointless discussion?
Hey! This is the first thread by Chris Wallace in a long time that isn't a pointless discussion! You should be reinforcing positive behavior, not casting aspersions! :mad:

:wolverine
 
I'm having too much fun w/this thread to even be insulted by that.
 

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