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Mutant-phobia: a Savage Hypocrisy

roach said:
Nope Active Duty Navy
Ah-so where are you? I got a friend in the Navy. She's been underway for a while now. I now have to fight all my Marine conditioning to keep from calling you a squid.:)
 
Chris Wallace said:
No. That was a line from V.

Ah man I love the tv show. I was bugging when they took off their faces and they were lizards underneath....but it was cool. They need to do a V movie
 
Chris Wallace said:
To put it another way: to one extent or another, prejudice exists in everyone's mind. We're taught-largely by society-to see differences between individual groups. What you do with that is up to you.

Precisely.

So the world's a better place now that I understand you? That's actually funny. In a way it goes right back to what we're talking about. I look forward to the next time we disagree.

How does it go back to what we're talking about, exactly?

Unfortunately, that wasn't me disagreeing with you (yet), I'm just trying to understand. But there'll be a next time... don't you worry about that.

:wolverine
 
Chris Wallace said:
Ah-so where are you? I got a friend in the Navy. She's been underway for a while now. I now have to fight all my Marine conditioning to keep from calling you a squid.:)

Pushing Reserve boots out of Jacksonville, Florida...I was stationed in San Diego before here...I miss it. I used to get into Comicon for free.:(
 
Abaddon said:
Well if Wolverine was given a disease his body would react and fight it off,and scientist would just have to take his antibodies or something to form a cure.:confused:

Yeah, I remember that from the animated series as well. Good thinkin', Cable, you time-travelling, gun-toting, load-bearing, cybernetic bastard.

Really my original statement came under the condition that something like that would be voluntary,but I'm not all that opposed to sacrificing the rights of a few so that they may serve a greater purpose.

That's the spirit! :up:

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
How does it go back to what we're talking about, exactly?

Unfortunately, that wasn't me disagreeing with you (yet), I'm just trying to understand. But there'll be a next time... don't you worry about that.

:wolverine
It goes back to what we're talking about b/c people who couldn't see eye-to-eye & had pretty much made up their minds about each other have found a middle ground. While discussing intolerance. And I know we weren't disagreeing here; I just think the next time we do will be more fun.
 
roach said:
Ah man I love the tv show. I was bugging when they took off their faces and they were lizards underneath....but it was cool. They need to do a V movie
Sorry; not that V; "V For Vendetta". But I was a big fan of that show, too, w/Beastmaster & Freddy Krueger.
 
Chris Wallace said:
Sorry; not that V; "V For Vendetta". But I was a big fan of that show, too, w/Beastmaster & Freddy Krueger.


I know I was being smart and funny at the same time
 
Chris Wallace said:
It goes back to what we're talking about b/c people who couldn't see eye-to-eye & had pretty much made up their minds about each other have found a middle ground. While discussing intolerance. And I know we weren't disagreeing here; I just think the next time we do will be more fun.

Ah. Okay, I gotcha. I'm quite tired, so I apologize for being slow on the uptake.


Oh yes, it shall indeed be fun...

:wolverine
 
thor87 said:
well, what can i say, i guess some people dont want to recognize it but it is an issue for some people. if the reason i presented is so hysterical would you please inform us as to the other reason as to why people have enslaved, murdered and hated Jews for thousands of years.

Why has anyone else been enslaved, murdered and hated for any amount of time?
Humans are hardwired to be territorial, hostile and tribalistic, although we also have the ability to cooperate, and people can channel those drives into other activities and not act that way, if they want to.

The thing about killing Jesus is just an excuse, obviously. Even among religious groups, which I myself look down upon for the most part, people vary so much in their lifestyles and actions in the real world, so I can't help thinking that anyone who truly hates a group of people that large (yes, I know it's not that large in comparison to other religions and ethnicities, for the same reason I'm talking about) is just looking for an excuse to dominate and abuse, to make themselves feel better and/or profit from their oppressed status. That's the same for every group, at its root.

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Why has anyone else been enslaved, murdered and hated for any amount of time?
Humans are hardwired to be territorial, hostile and tribalistic, although we also have the ability to cooperate, and people can channel those drives into other activities and not act that way, if they want to.

The thing about killing Jesus is just an excuse, obviously. Even among religious groups, which I myself look down upon for the most part, people vary so much in their lifestyles and actions in the real world, so I can't help thinking that anyone who truly hates a group of people that large (yes, I know it's not that large in comparison to other religions and ethnicities, for the same reason I'm talking about) is just looking for an excuse to dominate and abuse, to make themselves feel better and/or profit from their oppressed status. That's the same for every group, at its root.

:wolverine
That makes bigotry by far the biggest hypocracy of all, especially in America. America was founded by slave owners who violently stole the land from its native people while demanding the freedom to govern themselves, & rallied around a document stating that "All men are created equal". A document, mind you, whose author not only owned slaves, but determined from his own experience of having ONLY ENCOUNTERED SLAVES, that blacks were intellectually inferior. Then centuries later, the descendants of said slaves are told by the descendants of the murdering, thieving slavemasters that this is their rightful land & we need to go back where we came from. Then the governing body, having denied us jobs, education & opportunities for centuries, points the finger at all of us when some of us turn to crime. Then they invite the refugees of othe rcultures to come to this wonderful land of opportunity only to revert back to their territorial nature & subject the newcomers to further intolerance. It's sickening.
 
Chris Wallace said:
That makes bigotry by far the biggest hypocracy of all, especially in America. America was founded by slave owners who violently stole the land from its native people while demanding the freedom to govern themselves, & rallied around a document stating that "All men are created equal". A document, mind you, whose author not only owned slaves, but determined from his own experience of having ONLY ENCOUNTERED SLAVES, that blacks were intellectually inferior. Then centuries later, the descendants of said slaves are told by the descendants of the murdering, thieving slavemasters that this is their rightful land & we need to go back where we came from. Then the governing body, having denied us jobs, education & opportunities for centuries, points the finger at all of us when some of us turn to crime. Then they invite the refugees of othe rcultures to come to this wonderful land of opportunity only to revert back to their territorial nature & subject the newcomers to further intolerance. It's sickening.

wow. *applauds*
 
Chris Wallace said:
That makes bigotry by far the biggest hypocracy of all, especially in America. America was founded by slave owners who violently stole the land from its native people while demanding the freedom to govern themselves, & rallied around a document stating that "All men are created equal". A document, mind you, whose author not only owned slaves, but determined from his own experience of having ONLY ENCOUNTERED SLAVES, that blacks were intellectually inferior. Then centuries later, the descendants of said slaves are told by the descendants of the murdering, thieving slavemasters that this is their rightful land & we need to go back where we came from. Then the governing body, having denied us jobs, education & opportunities for centuries, points the finger at all of us when some of us turn to crime. Then they invite the refugees of othe rcultures to come to this wonderful land of opportunity only to revert back to their territorial nature & subject the newcomers to further intolerance. It's sickening.



Damn man, you just depressed the f**k out of me.

:(

Chris I love your view on things, but dude you can be a serious buzzkill sometimes.
 
Abaddon said:
Well if Wolverine was given a disease his body would react and fight it off,and scientist would just have to take his antibodies or something to form a cure.:confused:
And who's to say that would even work? The antibody could bond to the X-gene & the cure would only work on mutants.
 
MyPokerShirt said:
Nope, you're wrong. (this isnt the first time me and you have started a convo like this)

technically a genetic problem could be considered a mutation, but also it may be because of inheriting recessive genes - i.e. they havnt mutated to that genetic disease. this is how all real world genetic diseases are passed down. that is, theyre not mutations.


plus in the marvel world your only a mutant if you have the mutant gene. the kid with the skin disorder just plain wouldnt.
this discussion (Seperate to the threads focus, to be honest) is one that can be had with spider-girl. daughter of spider-man, inherited spider powers, technically a mutant on our terms but not in the marvel world - no mutant gene.


And no, most mutants in the marvel universe have not been shown to have mutations that arent powers. only really the morlocks and a few select individuals were shown like this. even if the power was useless (like, if you ask me, beak and his crappy way of flying) it was still mostly a power.


Actually, as I said, not every mutant has powers. Some do, and those tend to be the ones who are concentraited on. However, it has been shown that a majority simply have mild genetic mutations. A prime example of this was in District X (very good book, by the way). While some mutants did have powers, many others simply looked very strange or had very insignifigant powers. There was one mutant gang member who simply had six fingers on each hand, and a waitress in a resturaunt who merely had an over abundance of facial hair.
 
not canon i know but they did use wolvies antibodies in the x-men cartoon a few years back... it does seem like it should work. i mean if they can make someone like deadpool heal on the basis of wolvie's powers then surely they can just recreate the disease fighting part SOMEHOW?? but this always leads me onto other topics like why don't we see more of stark and reeds' technological improvements about the marvel universe?
-- why dont all their amps go up to 11?? or why arent there teleport stations? we ahppily accept these powers and techs when theyre "needed" in a storyline but demand a realistic contempory NY? just doesnt make sense to me. if i was JQ i'd make all the comics have teleport stations instead of subways. and there should be time cops. and more advanced space stations to defend the planet. etc etc etc
 
Abaddon said:
1-But you brought up the Tuskegee incident.:confused:

2- I woulnd't say it was something I'd endorse,but if it did more good than harm I'd turn a blind eye to the civil issue.
1-it was a real world parallel to what you were talking about; using human beings in medical experiments for little reason other than their social status. For this reason I could never turn a blind eye, no matter what the intentions or the outcome.
 
The Question said:
Actually, as I said, not every mutant has powers. Some do, and those tend to be the ones who are concentraited on. However, it has been shown that a majority simply have mild genetic mutations. A prime example of this was in District X (very good book, by the way). While some mutants did have powers, many others simply looked very strange or had very insignifigant powers. There was one mutant gang member who simply had six fingers on each hand, and a waitress in a resturaunt who merely had an over abundance of facial hair.

ysee i dont like that, cos thats what i thought the morlocks were invented for. i do think we havta distinguish between x-gene mutants and genetic deformities though. like the example of the skin condition kid gettin picked on by FOH...

but anyway u seem the x-fan. i only had... about 100 comics of theirs. ever. and i've sold nearly all of them. im mostly wikipedia/ general knowledge driven on this kinda stuff :up:
 
Personally, I feel that mutation is mutation. The Marvel definition, at it's base, is someone born with a mutation. I don't see why we should distinguishe between mutants who can destroy stuff with their minds (and who are not in the majority, by the way), and mutants who simply look weird. And, more importantly, the people of the MU themselves don't.
 
Chris Wallace said:
That makes bigotry by far the biggest hypocracy of all, especially in America. America was founded by slave owners who violently stole the land from its native people while demanding the freedom to govern themselves, & rallied around a document stating that "All men are created equal". A document, mind you, whose author not only owned slaves, but determined from his own experience of having ONLY ENCOUNTERED SLAVES, that blacks were intellectually inferior. Then centuries later, the descendants of said slaves are told by the descendants of the murdering, thieving slavemasters that this is their rightful land & we need to go back where we came from. Then the governing body, having denied us jobs, education & opportunities for centuries, points the finger at all of us when some of us turn to crime. Then they invite the refugees of othe rcultures to come to this wonderful land of opportunity only to revert back to their territorial nature & subject the newcomers to further intolerance. It's sickening.

This is a difficult issue, because while it's true that nobody alive today was in any way involved with or responsible for slavery in America, a large number of the people alive today who had ancestors living here either benefited or suffered because of the decisions of the guilty parties.

The only way I can see things changing enough to deal with this issue as well as countless others at the same time is to overthrow the government, institute a wise and kind dictator (i.e., me), and subject the entire country to an age of radical sociological reconstruction. Taking people's money and redistributing it evenly (which is not the same as reparations, since this would be focused on the future, not the past) has failed before, and I'm not saying it would ever work, but if entire generations of people were socialized in such a way that they would understand the reasons why we should be civil to each other and how cooperation is the only way to keep people safe, there could be less inequality, moneywise. That could only happen if there was a way to force everyone above the age of 5 to follow the new government's instructions to the letter and raise young children a certain way, which is impossible, I know. The other major component is to make more basic human needs accessable to all people. Several countries in Europe have socialized medicine; I'd sure like a piece of that action, and millions of people need it. If the government were to not only restructure the criminal justice system so that the citizenry was protected but provide basic resources like medical care, food and housing (until those who need it get jobs, which the new government would help them find), then there would be no excuse for need-based crime, and greed might be less of a motivating factor if the quality of life was higher across the board. Again, this is all theoretical.

Skin color and place of birth don't mean anything in and of themselves. People take sides and argue viciously over any perceivable difference, and people's appearances, language, accents, etc. are just the easiest excuses for taking sides against. If people could be effectively taught to live in a utilitarian lifestyle (that is, acting in such a way to achieve maximum pleasure and minimum displeasure, for the greatest amount of people, in the long term) right from birth, they could be shown how to sublimate (find a constructive use for) their baser instincts and leave the fighting and hostility where it belongs: in video games, board games and team sports. If we could start over with a clean slate, socio-economically, and keep on task, with a huge amount of supervision and intervention (that's why it's a dictatorship, benevolent though it may be), life might be better for everyone.

As it is in reality, the one thing I do think might help (slowly, long-term) is for people to go ahead and stop pretending there is such a thing as "races" within the human species. There just aren't any such thing in real life. The first time a person from a group with a distinct set of similar physical characteristics (which basically defines what a "race" is supposed to be) had a child with someone from another such group, that determined once and for all that there are no races. If it is possible for a human being to be born with a "mixed racial identity," then there simply are no more races, at all. A race is either a discrete, separate category, or it's not a race, and we all know it isn't discrete. I learned in a class on psychology of interpersonal relationships and a class on general social psychology that there is computer technology that can take the imaged of several faces and "average" them into one face, and it turns out the more faces used, the more attractive the average face gets. I've heard various people say that people of "mixed race" are often the most attractive people. I bet it's the same dynamic with both of those scenarios. We're all people, and we are, as a species in general, genetically programmed to consider certain kinds of features on people more attractive than others. This would seem to indicate that we "should" interbreed with people of different features, since the more "mixing" there is, the more attractive you are, and the more attractive you are, the more Charles Darwin wants you to have babies and pass your genes on. That's the biological explanation why we should stop all this "race" nonsense.

The intellectual/conceptual reason, which is only my own estimation as far as I know and not based on anything I've read or heard, is that removing the language of "race" takes power away from the people who believe in it. Things only exist if there are words to describe them, or else it's just individuals perceiving phenomena separately, and what is "real" for society has to be acknowledged by a decent proportion of people who have the ability to perceive it, or else it's a UFO or Elvis sighting and is only valid to people who want to see it. If all people who could be considered by the majority to not racist stopped using inaccurate words such as "white," "black," "race," "mixed," etc. in our everyday speech and writing, then that just leaves racists using terms that don't mean anything. If you could condition the majority of the population to stop acknowledging the very idea of race and force them to use accurate names of colors to describe people's skin tones (which is important, but only for describing suspects to the police-- "He was 5' 8" and tan, like Crayola crayon tan, and he stole my car!"-- and blind dates to your friends-- "He's a dreamy shade of burnt sienna, you'll just love him!"), then what does that make racists? It makes them seem crazy, and I don't just mean KKK types, I mean just crazy for thinking that a brown-skinned man is "black" ("Awesome, I didn't know Darth Maul was in town!"), that a person who looks me could be called "white" ("Um... you might want to give your glasses a really good cleaning, or have those cataracts removed... that guy is burlywood, not white"), and that a human being can be judged just by looking at their skin tone in the first place. Okay, I know we wouldn't actually be using the names of each individual color and each walk around with a wallpaper sample-fan, but you get the idea, right? I know this is completely improbably, but I don't think it's impossible. If it didn't result in confusion, long explanations and stupid arguments, I would never use any inaccurate words to describe anybody. I'm a literal-minded guy, and that's why "race" means nothing to me. I get my first impressions of strangers I see in the subway and so forth based on their body language, facial expression, and sometimes what they're wearing to some degree. "Race" is crazy talk, pure and simple, and I really wish people would stop talking about it like it was real, since that just gives power to the bastards who exploit people's belief in it.

Also, nobody should be taking "pride" in anything they didn't earn. Skin color and place of origin are not chosen by the individual (well, unless you have a full-body tattoo), and are not even acheivements. I'm not proud to be an American, I'm glad to be an American, or at least I was a few years ago. Nothing anybody's ancestors did can be attributed to us right now. If someone earned a *****-load of money, they can feel proud about that (if they're so inclined), but being born into a wealthy family is nothing to be proud of or ashamed of. Nothing that happened without our direct involvement is our fault or honor, and nobody should ever be blamed or praised for what they didn't do. I'm not saying people today shouldn't be cleaning up our ancestor's messes, but I am saying that no innocent parties should stand accused and many people's priorities need a complete reworking.


:wolverine
 
Chris Wallace said:
And who's to say that would even work? The antibody could bond to the X-gene & the cure would only work on mutants.

There's a way to find out for sure.



Chris Wallace said:
1-it was a real world parallel to what you were talking about; using human beings in medical experiments for little reason other than their social status. For this reason I could never turn a blind eye, no matter what the intentions or the outcome.


Their(mutants) social status had nothing to do with them being used for advances in medicine.
 

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