Mutant-phobia: a Savage Hypocrisy

[Abaddon]

The majority.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Best for whom?

Good point.

 

[Chris Wallace]

But there are other factors you're not considering: In absence of an official government daclaration that mutants ARE NOT HUMAN & DO NOT have the same rights as others, your proposal is not only immoral but illegal. Besides, did it ever occur to you that maybe the handful whose antibodies might be needed could actually be PERSUADED to participate in said research & wouldn't have to be forced? Forcing them should never enter into the equation. And you fail to see also, what a slippery slope you're on; if it's okay to just collect blood & tissue samples against their will, who's to say they wouldn't eventually be strapped down & chopped up? How do you determine what violation of a person's rights is or isn't acceptable?

 

[Abaddon]

But there are other factors you're not considering: In absence of an official government daclaration that mutants ARE NOT HUMAN & DO NOT have the same rights as others, your proposal is not only immoral but illegal.

You're absolutely right.

Besides, did it ever occur to you that maybe the handful whose antibodies might be needed could actually be PERSUADED to participate in said research & wouldn't have to be forced? Forcing them should never enter into the equation. And you fail to see also, what a slippery slope you're on; if it's okay to just collect blood & tissue samples against their will, who's to say they wouldn't eventually be strapped sown & chopped up?

I never stated that I would want it to be compulsory. Of course having it as something voluntary is ideal. I just don't understand why any of the covert government agencies, that seem to have a habit of exploiting mutants to use as weapons,instead try to use them for more productive purposes. It's not something I think is best,but I don't find it terribly immoral either. Really with that latter issue I could be persuaded either way.

 

[Tropico]

I never stated that I would want it to be compulsory. Of course having it as something voluntary is ideal. I just don't understand why any of the covert government agencies, that seem to have a habit of exploiting mutants to use as weapons,instead try to use them for more productive purposes. It's not something I think is best,but I don't find it terribly immoral either. Really with that latter issue I could be persuaded either way.

It's already been done in Astonishing X-Men and not by volunteer subjects. Originally I though this was about mutants' immunity to AIDS, I think I remember it mentioned it somewhere. But then there are posts like this, that stick to one's mind....

Whether theyre willing to help by their own accord shouldn't be an issue. You have the power to save millions of people who are sufferring needlessly. as a human,if I had to choose between them and me of course I'd choose myself and my kind. Besides,it's not like they'll all die horribly as a result.

And the whole "don't find it terribly immoral" comment that makes one think. It's easy to make blanket statements like this when it's not one of your loved ones or yourself in the situation. "Oh, I don't mind them taking my daughter and experimenting on her 'til she dies. It's for the common good!"- I don't see that happening. Of course the same applies to the reverse, sacrificing someone else's life to save your own or your loved ones'. It's a dilemma that was explored in that Hugh Grant movie where he was a doctor and they were experimenting on homeless people. I don't see how I have a right to say "Commit atrocities to that person because he/she has the cure." I wouldn't want it done to me.

If what is needed can be obtained through samples or post mortem forensics then I have no problem with it, otherwise it's up to the person to decide if they value their own life enough or not to put it on the chopping block. I'm staying away from the whole 'sacrifice one minority for the good of others' thing because I know that then I'll get riled up and I don't want that nor do I want to project your comment about mutants into real life.

 

[Chris Wallace]

What he said.

 

[Abaddon]

It's already been done in Astonishing X-Men and not by volunteer subjects. Originally I though this was about mutants' immunity to AIDS, I think I remember it mentioned it somewhere. But then there are posts like this, that stick to one's mind....

You're not referring to the Cure story arc are you?

And the whole "don't find it terribly immoral" comment that makes one think. It's easy to make blanket statements like this when it's not one of your loved ones or yourself in the situation. "Oh, I don't mind them taking my daughter and experimenting on her 'til she dies. It's for the common good!"- I don't see that happening. Of course the same applies to the reverse, sacrificing someone else's life to save your own or your loved ones'. It's a dilemma that was explored in that Hugh Grant movie where he was a doctor and they were experimenting on homeless people. I don't see how I have a right to say "Commit atrocities to that person because he/she has the cure." I wouldn't want it done to me.

If what is needed can be obtained through samples or post mortem forensics then I have no problem with it, otherwise it's up to the person to decide if they value their own life enough or not to put it on the chopping block. I'm staying away from the whole 'sacrifice one minority for the good of others' thing because I know that then I'll get riled up and I don't want that nor do I want to project your comment about mutants into real life.

I stated earlier in this hypothetical situation my statements apply to the case where mutants would not be harmed or killed in the process. Otherwise its a completely different situation. "By any means necessary" is not part of the equation.

 

[Chris Wallace]

But then you say whether or not they're willing is irrelevant; you keep arguing that the potential benefits outweigh the ethical issue & I'm saying they don't. Look-I don't get sunburn. I can't. Ever. At all. I have no idea what it feels like & this has to do with my genetic makeup. Should a pharmaceutical company just TAKE some of my pigmentation cells to study & find a way to prevent sunburn for everyone?

 

[Abaddon]

But then you say whether or not they're willing is irrelevant; you keep arguing that the potential benefits outweigh the ethical issue & I'm saying they don't. Look-I don't get sunburn. I can't. Ever. At all. I have no idea what it feels like & this has to do with my genetic makeup. Should a pharmaceutical company just TAKE some of my pigmentation cells to study & find a way to prevent sunburn for everyone?

Yes,because somehow preventing sunburn is comparable to curing cancer,leukemia,and any variety of fatal illnesses.

 

[Chris Wallace]

You're missing my point; your argument is that it's perfectly okay to take from one group of people to give to another, because they need it. That's not the country we live in. That's not the world we live in. Would it be okay to steal my pigment if it were discovered that I'm also immune to skin cancer?

 

[Abaddon]

You're missing my point; your argument is that it's perfectly okay to take from one group of people to give to another, because they need it. That's not the country we live in. That's not the world we live in. Would it be okay to steal my pigment if it were discovered that I'm also immune to skin cancer?

It's not stealing. You'd still have your immunity. They'd just study your genetic makeup,take some samples,and hopefully find some way to fix the problem for everyone who wasn't as fortunate as you were.

 

[Chris Wallace]

But none of that means they should just get what they want from me, whether I like it or not. I'm a compassionate person, & this could easily be done just by asking me; someone-I think Herr Logan-referenced an episode in which Wolverine's healing factor was used to create an antibody against a virus that Apocalypse was using. As I recall, he AGREED to this plan.

 

[Abaddon]

I'm not disputing that.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Where'd that sig come from?

 

[Abaddon]

Twilight Zone.

 

[Herr Logan]

Look-I don't get sunburn. I can't. Ever. At all. I have no idea what it feels like & this has to do with my genetic makeup.

Really?

I did not know that. I just figured it would take more time in the sun to burn you.

How does a person's skin color factor into a person's comfort level while in the sun on a hot day? I would think darker skin would draw more heat, since darker clothes are supposed to do the same thing. I usually try to wear all black during colder months (it's simpler, and slimming) but definitely not in warmer months.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Twilight Zone.

Oh-the one where the whole town turned on each other b/c they thought one among them was an alien?

 

[Abaddon]

Oh-the one where the whole town turned on each other b/c they thought one among them was an alien?

Thats the one.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Really?

I did not know that. I just figured it would take more time in the sun to burn you.

How does a person's skin color factor into a person's comfort level while in the sun on a hot day? I would think darker skin would draw more heat, since darker clothes are supposed to do the same thing. I usually try to wear all black during colder months (it's simpler, and slimming) but definitely not in warmer months.

I've lived in Florida & in the Mojave desert & watched many a person turn into a tomato. I don't burn.

 

[Herr Logan]

But none of that means they should just get what they want from me, whether I like it or not. I'm a compassionate person, & this could easily be done just by asking me; someone-I think Herr Logan-referenced an episode in which Wolverine's healing factor was used to create an antibody against a virus that Apocalypse was using. As I recall, he AGREED to this plan.

I don't think Wolverine did agree to that plan. I thought Wolverine was knocked into the virus tank by Cable or that Cable prevented others from keeping him from being knocked into the tank by Apocalypse. If he did know, why didn't Wolverine expose himself to the virus right off?

I could be remembering it incorrectly, but it seemed to me that Cable made his choice and wasn't much concerned about what Wolverine wanted or what was in his best interests. It didn't seem like he was sure that Wolverine's healing powers would do the trick, but that he had a hunch.

 

[Tropico]

You're not referring to the Cure story arc are you?

I stated earlier in this hypothetical situation my statements apply to the case where mutants would not be harmed or killed in the process. Otherwise its a completely different situation. "By any means necessary" is not part of the equation.

Yes. I was using 'The Cure' as an example.

Ok, I guess you made it clearer now. Your previous statements seemed like you preferred that it be done in a voluntary/non-fatal/non-invasive way but it was okay to go further than that if it was for the sake of a large amount of people.

 

[Herr Logan]

I've lived in Florida & in the Mojave desert & watched many a person turn into a tomato. I don't burn.

Is is true that all or most people with skin tones at least as dark as yours don't get sunburn?

 

[Herr Logan]

By the way, this fascinating debate you guys are having (again, I'm not being sarcastic) sounds like a utilitarian approach (Abaddon) vs. a Kantian approach (Chris Wallace).

Utilitarianism is the ethical code that states that people should act in such a way as to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, for the greatest amount of people, in the long run. A pure utilitarian approach may call for the actual sacrifice of the rights/pleasure/safety of the few for that of the greater number, rather than, as an example, the scenario at the end of the movie 'Spider-Man' where there was one person in mortal danger on one side and several people on the other. Of course they took the cheap way and cheated by implausibly having him save both, but the point is that you would have to choose between a small number of people you know, identify with or care about and a larger number of complete strangers.

Emmanuel Kant proposed a complicated ethical code called the "categorical imperative." Two tenets of this are as follows:

• You should never treat people as means to an end, but rather as ends unto themselves.
• You should behave as though the maxim of every action is enforced as a law in the "Kingdom of Ideals." This means that, for example, if a person considers the act of murder, they should imagine a world where everybody was compelled by law to murder all the time (or when the opportunity came up, or something like that... it's a tricky concept).

Following Kant's code strictly, you would never exploit anybody for any reason under any circumstances.

 

[Abaddon]

Yes. I was using 'The Cure' as an example.

Ok, I guess you made it clearer now. Your previous statements seemed like you preferred that it be done in a voluntary/non-fatal/non-invasive way but it was okay to go further than that if it was for the sake of a large amount of people.

"The Cure" wasn't really productive if all it was meant for was ridding mutants of their abilities.


I do prefer a vuluntary/non-fatal/non-invasive way but I'm not opposed to involuntary/non-fatal/non-invasive way. Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

 

[Abaddon]

I don't think Wolverine did agree to that plan. I thought Wolverine was knocked into the virus tank by Cable or that Cable prevented others from keeping him from being knocked into the tank by Apocalypse. If he did know, why didn't Wolverine expose himself to the virus right off?

I could be remembering it incorrectly, but it seemed to me that Cable made his choice and wasn't much concerned about what Wolverine wanted or what was in his best interests. It didn't seem like he was sure that Wolverine's healing powers would do the trick, but that he had a hunch.

http://www.tv.com/x-men/time-fugitives-2/episode/56124/recap.html

In Washington, Beast explains his findings about the plague (that it was manufactured by man and shows no sign of containing mutant DNA) to several reporters, before entering the Senate hearing room. Cable arrives a few minutes later, as the ruckus caused by Bishop stopping Graydon Creed from infecting Beast begins to happen again. While the rest of the team is distracted by the Friends Of Humanity, he lures Wolverine into a fight, and manages to teleport him away with him. Jean scans Cable's mind before he leaves, and is stunned by what she learns. The X-Men take Bishop back to the Blackbird to hunt down Creed, and even without a member, history continues on the same path. Though Jean doesn't tell Cyclops what she found from Cable's mind, she explains that he's more important to their future than they could ever imagine.

At a motel, Cable releases Wolverine, not to resume fighting, but to seek his help. When he refuses to listen and tries to leave, He has no choice but to shoot Logan with his laser rifle. After he wakes up fully healed, Cable teleports him at gunpoint to the Virginia HQ of the Friends of Humanity, where the X-Men are already beginning their storming of the place to find Creed. Again, they follow him into the underground lab. But before any confrontation can occur, Cable and Wolverine teleport in. Cable fires upon Apocalypse's human disguise, telling him to remember his name. Apocalypse reveals himself, and like before, battles against the team, unflinching against their best attacks. This time around, though, Wolverine is knocked into the vat containing the plague! Cable holds Bishop back, as Logan becomes infected. He explains that Logan's healing powers are creating antibodies which will help save all mutants in the future, effectively creating a cure. Apocalypse's plan is failed, and upon the rest of the virus' containers being destroyed, he opts to leave in a very different manner, flying away in a forcefield orb. As the X-Men flee the burning building, Bishop deactivates his armband, and returns to 2055. He finds the city back to being in ruins, as it had been when he left it during the original "post-assassination" timeline. Asking Forge if they stopped the plague, the elder mutant is unaware of any plague. Bishop, bemused that once more he's changed history only to find something else had made his world miserable, promises to tell him all about it.