Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

He was sticking up for everyone who's getting attacked for liking the movie. He just posted his own personal defense against those who call people loyalists, or accuse them of being easily entertained or blindly following whatever is given to them by telling them why he liked it, and why that doesn't make him (or anyone else) the names they're being called.

At least that's how I interpreted his post.

And you're totally right.

In another thread, LastSunrise said he hasn't seen anyone back up why they liked this movie.

So I made this thread to back up why I liked this movie, and hoped that it could show that there are legitamate reasons why people like this movie, and hopefully the name-calling would stop.

I want it to stop both ways.

Batman is right. I took a harsh beating from X-Maniac, JustABill, Wolverini, and others, because I was initially disappointed with the film. My opinion wasn't respected, simply because I didn't like the movie. People forgot all of a sudden about my year and a half of support for this film, even through the difficult times, and every opinion about the X-Men I had ever expressed, save for the fact that I wanted Gambit. And they blamed me for hating the movie because it didn't have Gambit...

So I was wrong when I said I hadn't seen any people who liked the movie bashing those who didn't... I was probably the original whipping boy from those who did like it.

The point is, whatever happened in the past, there is no excuse to start attacking people for their opinion. Quite frankly, even if he's not directing any of it at me, I'm getting a bit tired of LastSunrise going after X-Maniac, yourself, and others. The people he's calling out are doing exactly what he says he wants them to do... expressing their opinion in an intelligent way. But he's got his mind made up that they are insulting him for disliking the movie, when that's simply not the case.

I don't care how repetetive it gets; what I want to see is people coming in and stating "I didn't like this movie, for A, B, and C reasons", and then myself and others will come in and say "Well, actually I found that those A, B, and C reasons you listed actually worked for the movie, for such and such reasons" and the original poster coming back and saying "Well while you found it to work, I found it inconsistant with the previous movies, because X-Men and X2 set up this, that, and the other plot point that I don't feel X-Men: The Last Stand remained loyal to."

^That's what should be happening.

Not: "X3 sucked", "Well you're just a whiney fanboy who can't accept the movies as an alternate universe", "You're just a FOX loyalist who will eat up anything that's shoveled to you"

I want to keep the debate. I want to eliminate the attacks.

I was hoping my thread would provide some of the legitamate reasons for liking the movie, so that those who disliked the movie, who want to know what we thought worked, could see and understand where we were coming from, and hopefully the name calling would stop.

Unfortunatley, it doesn't seem to have worked... at least not yet. But I have faith, I've been around here long enough, I know that most of the posters in this forum are too intelligent for this kind of behavior, and I'm hoping that the tension can die down a bit and everyone can come to their senses.

The problem is that the changes in this movie are so severe, that it's forced people to take more extreme stances on their opinion. This isn't like X-Men or X2 where the complaints were "Singer toned it down too much", or "Singer should have used the comic costumes" or stuff like that. Some people feel the source material wasn't taken seriously, and has been disrespected, and others, though fans of the source material, felt that being the movie universe, not the comics, that changes were okay, and that people shouldn't cling so much to the source material.

It's a tough situation, and I'm glad there's something to talk about, because I love these movies, and I love talking about them, and I don't want the discussion to end. I just hope that everyone can come together in a better understanding of each other. And quite frankly, neither side of the coin (Batman, LastSunrise, X-Maniac), nobody is really helping the situation with the constant back and forths... "You started it" "no I didn't" "yes you did" "that was a long time ago, get over it" "you still did it"

 

[X-Maniac]

I'm still amazed that you did a total turnaround and ended up seeing the movie seven times Nell, more than many of those who had always liked the movie! Have you done this with other movies ? What about Bryan's SR?

They're very different films. SR has many long, heavy moments (Superman hovering outside Lois's house, his strange glance when as Clark he overhears that Lex was freed because of Superman's absence)... in which there is no dialogue to express emotion/conflict and in which the viewer is left to 'read' the scene and assess people's feelings.... There are few if any scenes of this kind in X3. Strange that those who prefer SR to X3 often want more dialogue in X3 when it was SR that was more lacking in dialogue (but better in breathing space / thinking time).

 

[La_She-Beast]

^Well, let's just say it lacks quality dialogue, imo. Some important, key phrases that didn't make you feel anything because they are so classy, you've seen a billion times in many movies.
In X2, I enjoyed the short-conversations with key words- that made you think. e.g. Storm and Nightcrawlers conversation of faith, etc. And, also you could know something about the character with just looking at something. e.g.s Nightcrawler's poster of the circus, Colosssus' drawing of Bobby and Rogue. Would've they killed them to create a deep, emotional moment of Beast looking at himself as a human in one of his pictures he has in his office? With an instant flashback? Of course not. But on the other hand, I liked Beast's conversation with the President. It remembered me that key words, short-conversation thing. I would've loved it if it had more of that.

 

[sauronthegreat]

Great post! I am really tired of negative ones. When they announced that a new director would come to continue these films I thought that x-men's faith would be the same as batman forever's. But Brett Ratner stayed true to Brian's vision because he respected him and his work and I think that we should now show a little respect for Ratner's continuity of that vision. I think that Brett Ratner did a great job with blending Brian's realistic world of x-men with the one that was presented in the comics and animated series. Concerning the story I like how they put together the cure and the Phoenix stories. Now for the first time mutants have choice to become normal or to remain with their godly abilities. But then there is Phoenix, a new evolution of mutation, who is controlled by her power. Maybe she doesn't destroy star systems, but what se does in the movie is way more terrible. She kills the man she loves and the man who was her father her whole life. That godly power does that, not Jean. Maybe if they had more time the film would have had more depth, but I like it as it is. I would like to see more of X-Men and I think that this was just a new beginning.

 

[X-Maniac]

^Well, let's just say it lacks quality dialogue, imo. Some important, key phrases that didn't make you feel anything because they are so classy, you've seen a billion times in many movies.
In X2, I enjoyed the short-conversations with key words- that made you think. e.g. Storm and Nightcrawlers conversation of faith, etc. And, also you could know something about the character with just looking at something. e.g.s Nightcrawler's poster of the circus, Colosssus' drawing of Bobby and Rogue. Would've they killed them to create a deep, emotional moment of Beast looking at himself as a human in one of his pictures he has in his office? With an instant flashback? Of course not. But on the other hand, I liked Beast's conversation with the President. It remembered me that key words, short-conversation thing. I would've loved it if it had more of that.

Interesting thoughts there.... X3 did have some quieter moments where we had to think (Rogue staring out of the window at Bobby and Kitty, Leech looking out of his prison window at Angel flying past)...but I see what you mean. More of that subtlety is perhaps what people wanted...

 

[danoyse]

Batman is right. I took a harsh beating from X-Maniac, JustABill, Wolverini, and others, because I was initially disappointed with the film. My opinion wasn't respected, simply because I didn't like the movie. People forgot all of a sudden about my year and a half of support for this film, even through the difficult times, and every opinion about the X-Men I had ever expressed, save for the fact that I wanted Gambit. And they blamed me for hating the movie because it didn't have Gambit...

So I was wrong when I said I hadn't seen any people who liked the movie bashing those who didn't... I was probably the original whipping boy from those who did like it.

I remember your first anti-X3 thread, but I didn't read it because I was seeing the movie later that afternoon and didn't want to read any reviews until after I'd seen it for myself.

But my sister's wedding was the day after X3 was released--so I saw the movie in between a dozen different things (it's actually become such a family joke that my dad and I snuck off to see the new X-Men movie that day that I put the ticket stub in her wedding scrapbook), and by the time I finally check out the boards again, you'd changed your mind about it.

I can imagine the beating you must have taken over it, which is silly.

I was too crazed to really have a definitive opinion the day I saw it. I went back on my day off a few days after the wedding to see it again, and that time I really enjoyed it. I still thought it was a little too short, and that the story should have been developed more...but it was a good movie. I saw it twice more after that.

The point is, whatever happened in the past, there is no excuse to start attacking people for their opinion. Quite frankly, even if he's not directing any of it at me, I'm getting a bit tired of LastSunrise going after X-Maniac, yourself, and others. The people he's calling out are doing exactly what he says he wants them to do... expressing their opinion in an intelligent way. But he's got his mind made up that they are insulting him for disliking the movie, when that's simply not the case.

Thank you. I don't see how claiming that someone being mean to someone else a few months ago gives anyone a free pass to start bashing someone's opinion then or now. There's no point to any of it. I'm not going to change his mind, he's not going to change mine...just agree to disagree and let it go. At the very least, discuss the different points without the name-calling and accusations.

I have no idea what I did to set him off. How am I a "Fox loyalist"? My first job was at a Fox affiliate (and I've told him this), and I hated it there. I have no love for the studio, and have posted numerous times the mistakes I thought they made with X3.

How is it possible that he's got plenty of friends who loved X3 and he doesn't have a problem with it, but mine, X-Maniac, and others' opinions of it are unacceptable to him? What did we do that was so offensive to him?

And we have never called him these names or given these reasons he claims we've told him in his posts. I've never called him a "loser" or a "whiny fanboy". I've never gloated about Cyclops' demise (I didn't like that they killed him off, either).

There just doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to his attacks on people.

The sad part is, I know he'll respond to this is as proof that I'm somehow "unintelligent" to him.

I don't care how repetetive it gets; what I want to see is people coming in and stating "I didn't like this movie, for A, B, and C reasons", and then myself and others will come in and say "Well, actually I found that those A, B, and C reasons you listed actually worked for the movie, for such and such reasons" and the original poster coming back and saying "Well while you found it to work, I found it inconsistant with the previous movies, because X-Men and X2 set up this, that, and the other plot point that I don't feel X-Men: The Last Stand remained loyal to."

^That's what should be happening.

Agreed.

I want to keep the debate. I want to eliminate the attacks.

I think it can happen. The ones who attack keep telling people to go somewhere else, but as long as those in favor intelligent debate stand their ground, one side can eventually overtake the other.

I was hoping my thread would provide some of the legitamate reasons for liking the movie, so that those who disliked the movie, who want to know what we thought worked, could see and understand where we were coming from, and hopefully the name calling would stop.

Unfortunatley, it doesn't seem to have worked... at least not yet. But I have faith, I've been around here long enough, I know that most of the posters in this forum are too intelligent for this kind of behavior, and I'm hoping that the tension can die down a bit and everyone can come to their senses.

I think it has. Usually, a thread about one subject turns into the same debate, and that's when the attacks begin. Your thread actually directs the attacks from the start, and that's what's being discussed right now. It seems the consensus is that most people are sick of it.

The problem is that the changes in this movie are so severe, that it's forced people to take more extreme stances on their opinion. This isn't like X-Men or X2 where the complaints were "Singer toned it down too much", or "Singer should have used the comic costumes" or stuff like that. Some people feel the source material wasn't taken seriously, and has been disrespected, and others, though fans of the source material, felt that being the movie universe, not the comics, that changes were okay, and that people shouldn't cling so much to the source material.

It has...between Singer's departure, the AICN leak, and just the body count in this movie has caused far most controversy than any of the others, and with it, the emotions just run high. Unfortunately, it makes the debating even hotter.

But it can still be debated without the name-calling and accusations. It really can.

It's a tough situation, and I'm glad there's something to talk about, because I love these movies, and I love talking about them, and I don't want the discussion to end. I just hope that everyone can come together in a better understanding of each other. And quite frankly, neither side of the coin (Batman, LastSunrise, X-Maniac), nobody is really helping the situation with the constant back and forths... "You started it" "no I didn't" "yes you did" "that was a long time ago, get over it" "you still did it"

Me too. I really do love these movies, and I love coming in here to talk about them. And I'm not leaving. When the discussion is good--even when something is being furiously debated, this is a really fun place. They're just movies, it's not the beginning or end of life as we know it. I think people tend to forget that.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'm still amazed that you did a total turnaround and ended up seeing the movie seven times Nell, more than many of those who had always liked the movie! Have you done this with other movies ? What about Bryan's SR?

The closest that I've come was seeing X2 in theatres 4 times, all 3 Lord of the Rings in theatres 3 times, as well as seeing Titanic 3 times. But none of those movies had turnarounds... I loved those movies from the start. As far as Superman Returns goes, I really liked the movie, and I'll get it on DVD, but it's Superman... it's a character I never really was interested in, and even though the movie was good, it's hard for me to really get into the movie as deeply, just because I don't have the investment in the characters. But I thought that Singer did a great job with the movie.

Before X-Men: The Last Stand came out, I made a half joking plan to see the movie 5 times straight: Midnight showing, opening day, over the weekend (Saturday and Sunday), and again on the following Monday, which was my birthday. A friend of mine was supposed to do it with me.

After the midnight showing, he said he wasn't going to see it again... he MIGHT come on my birthday, but he really didn't like it, and didn't want to see it again.

I was questioning my "5 times straight" plan, because the movie was just nothing like I expected.

But despite my initial disappointment with it, I just had this huge urge to see it again the day after the midnight showing. Another friend of mine I was hanging out with that day didn't want to go (he's not a huge X-Men fan, doesn't care too much for the movies, and was already going to go on my birthday, and he didn't really wanna see it twice), so after I left his house I decided to go on my own. And on my second viewing, everything about the movie was just better.

I think danyose said it perfectly:

I still thought it was a little too short, and that the story should have been developed more...but it was a good movie.

That's exactly how I feel about the movie. It could have been better. It could have been longer, and better developed. But overall, I still really enjoyed it, in the end. Unfortunatley, this is really the only one of the trilogy that I feel that way about. Watching X-Men or X2, except for personal wants, like Gambit, I don't feel that there's anything lacking from those 1st two movies. I fel that they were done the way they should have been done. And this wasn't from any kind of preconcieved ideas of what the movies should be, or anything like that, and Singer nailed all of them. Singer just "got" the X-Men, and stuck true to the source material, while making it something real, something that could be taken seriously.

X-Men: The Last Stand, as much as I like it, is the only one of the trilogy where my opinion is "it could have been better", despite the fact thatI truly enjoy it. And that's the problem with it for me.

At it's foundation, it's core, it has the potential to just utterly surpass even X2 in every category. But the execution doesn't cut it, and even though it does certain aspects better than even X2, the film as a whole doesn't surpass X2. And it's a shame, because this movie could have been so much more. And for that, I do blame the writers, because they were the ones that couldn't write a script to fully flesh out the story, and blame Fox all you want, but Kinberg has admited that it was their idea to kill of Cyclops anyways. I don't think they neccesarily did a bad job, but they didn't really do a good one either, and it was the power of the characters, and the attempt to remain consistant with the first 2 that really powered this movie to victory.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Well, I think anyone who really views this film as a "good film" really has no taste in what is considered to be good ot great films.

Last films of the trilogy shouldn't be rushed into production to beat out another film. These films aren't like Evil Dead, Friday the 13th, or even Halloween for instance where it doesn't matter what you do, they remain consistent with the basic plot and atmosphere of the story.

X1 and X2 had much deeper meanings(IMO) with much better character development, emotion, tragedy, and a overall theme concept that everyone could relate to. Now, with that being said, X3 is what should never be done to the last film of the trilogy. If anything this particular story should've been the film that made every other particular movie look bad.

Instead(IMO) it backfired on them, and while they made their money, it doesn't really mean that it was a good film either. I bet anything that if it opened up against Superman Returns or Spider-Man it would've got owned horribly.

Let's face it, some critics enjoyed this movie, some fans enjoy this movie. But it really isn't that good of a film(IMO). It's on the range of decent to average. Snakes On A Plane had more emotional moments than X3 even contained.

The difference is? Snakes on A Plane doesn't try to pass itself off as a serious dramatic action movie, X3 was supposed to be emotional, serious, and powerful at the same time, and it accomplishes neither of those particular aspects.

Could this film have been done better? Yes. The fact that Fox rushed it into production showed they really didn't care about the series as a whole. If they did they would've taken more time and given a lot more effort to make sure it was quality instead of a half assed production.

Kinberg, Ratner, and Penn hyped up the final battle and hyped up the emotional themes of this film as being of "Return of the King" proportions. Needless to say nothing moved me to the point of tears, nothing made me gasp, nothing made me feel as though I had witnessed the battles of all battles.

This was just a typical action movie with little to no plot or story. I truly feel Fox/Rothman dropped the ball, but hey, they made their money off the film because people went to see it and some did enjoy it, but personally I just feel taste in movies have dropped considerably.

I can't wait for Spider-Man 3 to come out so it can show Fox how to really close a trilogy.

Blame Fox? Fox didn't even want Cyclops in the movie to begin with. And for Kinberg/Penn to be such huge comic book fans, they went along with it like the yes men they are.

You don't hire hacks to write a movie of this magnitude, you just don't do it and Fox did it, just so they could beat Superman Returns to the theater out of petty revenge and childish antics.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Well, I think anyone who really views this film as a "good film" really has no taste in what is considered to be good ot great films.

That's the kind of attitude that's getting people upset with you...

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

That's the kind of attitude that's getting people upset with you...

Exactly, Nell.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

That's the kind of attitude that's getting people upset with you...

And I care because? Truth hurts. How funny of you to take that sentence and not acknowledge the rest of my post.

Either way what I posted was the truth. Either take it or leave it.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

And I care because? Truth hurts. How funny of you to take that sentence and not acknowledge the rest of my post.

Either way what I posted was the truth. Either take it or leave it.

Then don't get mad at people for getting on your case, when you turn around and do the same ****, then respond that you don't care.

If you're gonna be like that, then I don't want to hear your opinion, you can just keep it to yourself.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Well, I think anyone who really views this film as a "good film" really has no taste in what is considered to be good ot great films.

I couldn't even read past this...

Stop taking your hatred and bitterness toward this movie out on the people who liked it.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

I couldn't even read past this...

Stop taking your hatred and bitterness toward this movie out on the people who liked it.

I'm not taking it out on anyone. I'm clearly calling out those who feel the need to praise it as if Jesus Christ Himself directed it.

I guess it's alright for those who liked it to insult those who didn't like it, but God forbid anyone points out a flaw of a movie that hurts someones feelings.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

And I care because? MY OPINION hurts. How funny of you to take that sentence and not acknowledge the rest of my post.

Either way what I posted was MY OPINION. Either take it or leave it.

Learn the difference

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'm not taking it out on anyone. I'm clearly calling out those who feel the need to praise it as if Jesus Christ Himself directed it.

I guess it's alright for those who liked it to insult those who didn't like it, but God forbid anyone points out a flaw of a movie that hurts someones feelings.

Stop playing the victim. If someone who enjoyed the movie insulted someone else for not liking it, we'd be having problems.

But the fact of the matter is you are now blatantly insulting people who enjoyed the movie, and then getting offended when someone gets upset about it.

Stop being a hypocrit, and stop playing the victim, and stop twisting everything around so that everyone else is the bad guy and you're the one righteous soul fighting for truth and justice.

You're not "clearly" anything... you are blatantly insulting anyone who enjoyed the movie now, and insulting their tastes and intellegence.

I'm not mod, but that kind of behavior will not be tolerated, on either end.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

I'm not taking it out on anyone. I'm clearly calling out those who feel the need to praise it as if Jesus Christ Himself directed it.

I guess it's alright for those who liked it to insult those who didn't like it, but God forbid anyone points out a flaw of a movie that hurts someones feelings.

There are a lot of people like me who enjoyed this film and have never insulted you or anyone for not liking it.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Learn the difference

Spinning, editing, and twisting my post doesn't make you right OMB.

What I posted was the truth. People like you, X-Maniac, Weatherwitch, and so on don't know the difference.

Don't like it? Put me on ignore and move on with your life.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Stop playing the victim. If someone who enjoyed the movie insulted someone else for not liking it, we'd be having problems.

But the fact of the matter is you are now blatantly insulting people who enjoyed the movie, and then getting offended when someone gets upset about it.

Stop being a hypocrit, and stop playing the victim, and stop twisting everything around so that everyone else is the bad guy and you're the one righteous soul fighting for truth and justice.

You're not "clearly" anything... you are blatantly insulting anyone who enjoyed the movie now, and insulting their tastes and intellegence.

I'm not mod, but that kind of behavior will not be tolerated, on either end.

Wah, wah, wah if anyone is playing the victim it is you. No one started this thread, no one started this war but those who felt the need to insult those who didn't like it.

You're one to talk and defend them, especially when X-Maniac INSULTED YOU for pointing out the flaws of X3.

Like I told OMB, if you don't like what I have to say, put me on ignore and move on with your happy go lucky lives. Not everyone is going to praise this film 24/7 like you want people to do.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Spinning, editing, and twisting my post doesn't make you right OMB.

What I posted was the truth. The difference is people like you, X-Maniac, Weatherwitch, and so on don't know the difference.

Don't like it? Put me on ignore and move on with your life.

Nobody is "spinning", "editing", or "twisting" anything of your's. We don't need to.

"Well, I think anyone who really views this film as a "good film" really has no taste in what is considered to be good ot great films."

^ That was no. That was no spinning, twisting, or editing at all. That came from you, and you alone.

"What I posted was the truth. The difference is people like you, X-Maniac, Weatherwitch, and so on don't know the difference."

^ You're doing it again in this very post, claiming your opinion as truth, and everyone else is "wrong" who can't come to grips with "reality".

And then you're the one who cries because people are insulting you.

STOP IT! I'm sick and tired of your attitude. It shouldn't be my job to put you on ignore, it should be your job to be civil and respectable. Don't use that excuse as a cop out for your totally inapporpriate behavior.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Spinning, editing, and twisting my post doesn't make you right OMB.

What I posted was the truth. The difference is people like you, X-Maniac, Weatherwitch, and so on don't know the difference.

Don't like it? Put me on ignore and move on with your life.

What any of us think is not the truth, buddy. It's called a ****in' opinion. We all have them... and to each and every one of us it is our own truths; no one elses.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Not everyone is going to praise this film 24/7 like you want people to do.

Where have I said I want people to praise this movie? Where has anyone said that?

What I want is for people to be respectful when debating it.

Stop making assumptions, and actually READ the things I've written in this thread.

 

[newwaveboy87]

LastSunrise how old are you supposed to be? you're coming off like a 14 year old with a bad attitude problem. seriously, what you posted was not "The Truth." it was YOUR truth. there's a difference there.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

And LastSunrise, don't hijack my thread either...

I can put you on as many ignores as I want, but my ignoring you is not going to stop you from running your mouth. And I don't want MY thread closed, which up to this point has been intelligent discussion, because you decided you couldn't handle the fact that everyone was starting to get along a bit, and needed to stip up some trouble so you could get the attention again.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

LastSunrise how old are you supposed to be? you're coming off like a 14 year old with a bad attitude problem. seriously, what you posted was not "The Truth." it was YOUR truth. there's a difference there.

What I posted was the truth about the film and the posters, learn the difference.