New Joe Fridays: Week 23

[Havok83]

Archangel's a very difficult character to write for on a superteam, since his one power isn't really that unique or useful anymore.

I dont see how thats a problem being how he's been a pretty consistent character on 4 different superhero teams since his debut over 40 years ago

 

[Dread]

I'm willing to wait for Heinberg too, I was simply stating that he is a writer whose comic work will always come second to his TV work. Whedon at least could blame ASTONISHING's lateness on Cassaday, who is notoriously slow (I mean look at his style). But Heinberg's busy on TV shows and they'll always come first because those bosses are, IMO, not as intolerant about missed deadlines than the "frathouse" that is Joe Q's bullpen at times. "Missed your deadline? Pfft, the fan's love ya, babe. Take another six months, it'll still sell. Now, let me dot some eyes on DAREDEVIL: FATHER and get back to ya..."

True, WONDER WOMAN and YOUNG AVENGERS are not the same. But the fact is that demand can lesson with time, and YA wasn't exactly selling in the Top 10 or even 25 when it ended, thanks no doubt in part to there being some 2-3 months between issues towards the end. Not even the CW special sold above the Top 30 for at least 3 out of 4 issues. The longer the wait, the worse it may do and that's bad for everyone.

Plus, this is a Marvel that always projects unrealistic and unattainable schedules, only to backtrack later. I remember when ULTIMATES 3 was being pitched for "late summer 2006" and now we'll be lucky if it starts before Easter 2007. And Marvel had to quiet down about "Singer & Co." on Ultimate X-Men after about a year and a half of waiting (when Vaughan became a "regular" instead of "tredding water 'till Singer", and Kirkman has taken the exact same role); for the record, it was 2005 when they started getting wet over that one. So, if Marvel originally projected "early 2007", that means realistically we should be lucky if we see YOUNG AVENGERS vol. 2 #1 before Halloween 2007.

I definately want Heinberg on YA, the characters he created. The question is, which will happen first? Another 12 issues or me collecting Social Security? That may actually become a fair question. This is also a Marvel that is more than willing to chuck out 1-2 issues of a series and then watch as it falls into delay after delay and they quietly push it into oblivion, i.e. ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK and DAREDEVIL: TARGET #2.

 

[Purple Man]

Stuff happens when you have a few busy people creating a book.

You can either whine about it or accept the fact that the only real penalty they face for being late on their publishing schedule is having to put up with fan outcry. Which isn't that big of a deal for creators because they mostly avoid public forums like the plague because of fanboys tendency to take these funny books too seriously, and hang on every word and date that comes out of their mouth.

Facts of life and all that.

 

[Red]

Purple I really wish you would stop trying to score points by bashing Dread.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Looks like a weak Joe Friday's to me. I'm surprised that no one went into JMS leaving ASM, which was reported in the latest Wizard, I guess that'll make it in next week's edition.

 

[Dread]

Stuff happens when you have a few busy people creating a book.

You can either whine about it or accept the fact that the only real penalty they face for being late on their publishing schedule is having to put up with fan outcry. Which isn't that big of a deal for creators because they mostly avoid public forums like the plague because of fanboys tendency to take these funny books too seriously, and hang on every word and date that comes out of their mouth.

Facts of life and all that.

I highlighted that section for a reason. The reason being that in just about any other job that I can think of, if you're late with a scheduled project, that's not the only penalty. True, we don't actually see these guys talk to each other so for all we know there is "pressure" added from up top when dates are missed. But if there is, it apparently doesn't work because it has become the accepted rule and not the exception.

Like I said, if you were notoriously and repeatedly late with a project at your job, you'd be demoted or even fired. But at Marvel (or DC for that matter), it's just a notch on your resume, like elephant shaving experience.

People do what is expected of them. Many have argued that the reason civility in society has declined is because less is expected of children and for adults, one merely has to rise above low standards. The same applies all over. It seems that once you reach a certain "status" in comics, things like schedules no longer need apply because you are a brand name.

Heinberg is a good writer, and his YA a good comic. But he is not Moses coming down off the flipping mountain with the 10 Commandments. He is yet another "Hollywood writer" whose comic work always comes last that the industry caters to. He's not the main offender, but he came up, and he's as good an example as any.

Also, I understand that some writers/artists simply cannot maintain a monthly schedule for whatever reason no matter how hard they try. So why does Marvel project release dates that they should know damn well cannot be met? It makes them look foolish every time they, say, have to push back ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK #3 back another month or two (10 months late and counting, it's last solict is for the last week in December and that probably will come and go).

My point is some honesty and some willingness for some company, Marvel or DC, to place integrity before their pocketbook for the fans they profess to love (and the "quality of comics" they claim to care about) and attempt to CHANGE this situation with late comics, rather than shrug and expect nothing. YA had the fortune to end a volume before Heinberg had his delays, but WONDER WOMAN is not so fortunate. ULTIMATES 2 probably won't finish this year, thus pushing ULTIMATES 3 with Loeb and "Guarenteed to be late" Joe Mad from "summer/fall '06" to, hopefully, first quarter 2007. The fact is the longer issues take to ship, the more anticipation dies. Before, ASTONISHING X-MEN was a must-read. Now it's like, "oh, that's still going?"

One line of defense that some insiders at Marvel use is, "past great comics were late, and it all reads fine in trade". Which is a line of bull. Firstly, just because major books like DKR and WATCHMEN fell behind doesn't mean maybe a half dozen books a year or more are always late. Secondly, over 100,000 readers get some of these hot titles monthly, NOT via trade, so to simply brush off their experience and play "futurist" is folly.

Not even CIVIL WAR was immune; retailers noted a 20% dip in sales from issue #4 and #5. It was still the #1 book, but earlier (timlier) issues were selling over 325,000 copies and the later issues well below 300,000. Narratively I haven't minded the breaks, but an event is usually about nothing but sales, and so this may be cause for concern if it remains. Granted, it may have nothing to do with delays and may've simply been people feeling cheated about Clor.

Sure, DC makes some of these mistakes too, but that's no excuse. I'm a Marvel fan through and through, and I like their universe. That's why I don't like seeing areas where not only can I see improvement, but that they don't even seem to be making an effort, instead engaging in doubletalk and excuses. Like with cramming 22 pages of comic with 24+ pages of ads late in the year.

 

[Darthphere]

Not even CIVIL WAR was immune; retailers noted a 20% dip in sales from issue #4 and #5. It was still the #1 book, but earlier (timlier) issues were selling over 325,000 copies and the later issues well below 300,000. Narratively I haven't minded the breaks, but an event is usually about nothing but sales, and so this may be cause for concern if it remains. Granted, it may have nothing to do with delays and may've simply been people feeling cheated about Clor.

I wanted to highlight this portion just for a second. You're attributing a sales drop because it was late, but arent there other possible factors into that? The Clor reveal causing people to drop the books? A normal drop off of readers in the middle of an event who are not liking it? I think its really diffifcult to assume that the delay was the only reason for the 20% drop. Look at All-Star Batman and Robin which was delayed for about the same amount of time, the issue still hit the top 5.

 

[Dread]

I wanted to highlight this portion just for a second. You're attributing a sales drop because it was late, but arent there other possible factors into that? The Clor reveal causing people to drop the books? A normal drop off of readers in the middle of an event who are not liking it? I think its really diffifcult to assume that the delay was the only reason for the 20% drop. Look at All-Star Batman and Robin which was delayed for about the same amount of time, the issue still hit the top 5.

Top 5 doesn't always mean the same numbers. It's all relative. Some months the #1 book sells 350,000 copies and other months it sells 250,000 copies.

I acknowledged that delays alone may not account for the drop off. But that it was something that, if I was EIC, I would take a pause and think about. The reason CW was delayed because McNiven needed more time and Marvel figured it was better off delaying the event in mid-stream to wait for the artist rather than risk a fill-in. If sales for CW drop off, they should be wondering why and learning from it. I mean, if they were a business and all.

 

[Darthphere]

According to Rich Johnston, Sean McKeever is writing New Warriors.

 

[Specter313]

Do you have a link to that?

 

[Darthphere]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

Its a yellow light so its not confirmed yet.

 

[Specter313]

Thanks.

(And who's in your avvy? Sage?)

 

[Darthphere]

Look at my title.

 

[Dread]

According to Rich Johnston, Sean McKeever is writing New Warriors.

Even if it's only a rumor, that's not a bad pick to write NEW WARRIORS at all. He does the teenage thing on SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE, although I don't read that. I did read GRAVITY, though, and that was pretty good (too many readers ignored it and called it "Invincible Lite", but I've read both and that assumption is unfair). Supposedly Gravity is set to join the NW so it would make sense for his creator to be aboard. I also heard good things from his SENTINAL from Paul O'Brien over at the X-Axis website, and he's not easily impressed.

Hopefully McKeever was informed enough of McDuffie's BEYOND! to fit in that Gravity revealed his identity to his estranged girlfriend Laura, and they hooked up again.

Anyway, McKeever on NEW WARRIORS sounds like a good fit. Even if that was the book some of us were rooting for Dan Slott to get.

 

[Specter313]

Even if it's only a rumor, that's not a bad pick to write NEW WARRIORS at all. He does the teenage thing on SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE, although I don't read that. I did read GRAVITY, though, and that was pretty good (too many readers ignored it and called it "Invincible Lite", but I've read both and that assumption is unfair). Supposedly Gravity is set to join the NW so it would make sense for his creator to be aboard. I also heard good things from his SENTINAL from Paul O'Brien over at the X-Axis website, and he's not easily impressed.

Hopefully McKeever was informed enough of McDuffie's BEYOND! to fit in that Gravity revealed his identity to his estranged girlfriend Laura, and they hooked up again.

Anyway, McKeever on NEW WARRIORS sounds like a good fit. Even if that was the book some of us were rooting for Dan Slott to get.

I enjoy McKeever a lot and would be very happy if he were to write the New Warriors. He's very underrated IMO. I loved Gravity a lot, and would be especially happy if he were to bring him in with him. I also really liked his run on Mystique. He's really someone who needs something really good to put him on the map, and this could really help.

 

[Dread]

I enjoy McKeever a lot and would be very happy if he were to write the New Warriors. He's very underrated IMO. I loved Gravity a lot, and would be especially happy if he were to bring him in with him. I also really liked his run on Mystique. He's really someone who needs something really good to put him on the map, and this could really help.

He certainly seems like he has range with all of those titles. He also wrote 1 issue of SPIDER-GIRL that some people mentioned liking.

I've read little of him as mentioned, but I did get and enjoy GRAVITY, and that character's still running around MU, which is a feat unto itself for new characters these days. He was able to mix teen drama with some heroics and coming-of-age stuff and all that, so, I agree he's probably underrated, and this title could "make" him if it does well. He's not a big name so he may need a FALLOUT OF CIVIL WAR banner or something on NEW WARRIORS to make that first strike. Then it's all on him.

 

[Specter313]

He certainly seems like he has range with all of those titles. He also wrote 1 issue of SPIDER-GIRL that some people mentioned liking.

I've read little of him as mentioned, but I did get and enjoy GRAVITY, and that character's still running around MU, which is a feat unto itself for new characters these days. He was able to mix teen drama with some heroics and coming-of-age stuff and all that, so, I agree he's probably underrated, and this title could "make" him if it does well. He's not a big name so he may need a FALLOUT OF CIVIL WAR banner or something on NEW WARRIORS to make that first strike. Then it's all on him.

What do you think of the other choices Newsarama suggested in Arana and the new Scorpion? I've had very little exposure to Arana, but I really like Scorpion. Her introduction in Amazing Fantasy was a lot of fun and every other time she's popped up (HOM Hulk, that X-23 Captain Universe one shot), she's really stood out, in a good way. Any other characters you think would fit?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I dont want anyone else touching YA's Main title... Heinberg respects these characters and would stand up with them... if another writer came aboard they'd be listening to Joey Q and to what the marve house really wants, not giving enough backbone and before we know it 1 or 2 of the YA are killed off... turned into stereotypes, and the magic that is in that book is destroyed.. there heinbergs creation let him do it. Add to that the fact i honestly would rather wait for a good solid 6ishes without a delay... then get it sooner and have a bunch of delays like civil war has had happen

 

[Dread]

What do you think of the other choices Newsarama suggested in Arana and the new Scorpion? I've had very little exposure to Arana, but I really like Scorpion. Her introduction in Amazing Fantasy was a lot of fun and every other time she's popped up (HOM Hulk, that X-23 Captain Universe one shot), she's really stood out, in a good way. Any other characters you think would fit?

Never read any of Scorpion aside for her Handbook Bio, and a little of Arana from guest issues in MTU, MS. MARVEL, and DR. STRANGE: OATH (and a Handbook Bio a year back). Not terribly interested in either but have nothing really against them. I can't stand X-23, couldn't since X-MEN: EVOLUTION.

As for other New Warriors, I would have liked had there been more of a mix of old and new. Speedball's naturally the no brainer, but there are other founding members left. Justice hasn't done much since he and Firestar were Avengers (maybe 5 years ago) and as Firestar recently dumped him AND retired, he may need his friends around. Nova's in space, natch, but Rage is still around, and it would be good seeing how he evolves after losing yet another parent figure (first his grandma, and now Night-Thrasher, both due to crime). I'd still like Firestar to show up eventually; just because she retired doesn't mean baddies would leave her alone. But maybe that's a SPIDER-FRIENDS fan talking.

I'm all for the new heroes joining the team, in fact it's a good motive. But Speedball being the only older one just seems like a wasted oppurtunity.

 

[deemar325]

I hope the roster goes something like this...

New NEW WARRIORS
Gravity
Arana
Rage
Speedball
Aegis
Mastermind Excello
Ultra Girl


I'd also like to see 'The Hood' as a member or villian in the ongoing since he and Gravity interacted in BEYOND!


'Scorpion' doesn't interest me but if done right she could appear.

I'd rather Firestar and Justice not appear or have minimal roles, their pretty lame to me (especially Justice) and Nova I think is moving towards A-list status.

 

[deemar325]

Wonder Woman is a different situation though. Thats an ongoing, and his lateness is pretty much causing other titles to suffer as well as hes writing one of the big 3 for DC. A lack of Young Avengers isnt really affecting anything in the Marvel universe, they still pop up from time to time, Civil War, Captain America, the Winter Soldier one-shot. I hineslty see where youre coming from but id rather wait for him to gte some time to do it, of course my patience has a limit which is pretty much something has to be announced by summer of 07 and then ill join the get a new writer bandwagon, but if he finds the time and wants to do it, ill wait.

I'm not saying Allen wouldn't be involved in the writing of YA, just that since the guy can't be bothered to hunker down and write a full script of the ongoing (and it is supposed to be an ongoing series.) why not let another good writer (I elect Dan Slott or BKV) collaborate with Heinberg and knock out the issues.

Heres how it works example:

Allen Heinberg: Man I'm so busy and gay with my Hollywood work this month, I've got tons of ideas for what I want to happen with Patriot,Kate and the rest for the next 12 issues what to do? I know I'll call up Brian K. Vaughan.. *Dials up BKV*

BKV: Hello super talented writer with the work ethic to actually write and finish several monthly titles and one OGN while participating in various hobbies like karate and rock climbing while finishing up my script for the 'Y the Last Man' movie.

AH: Yeah um..hey wanna help a guy out and script my plots while I shoot steroids and have coffee at Starbucks with the producers of Grey's Anatomy?

BKV: Sure buddy just give me a 10 page summary of what you got for the next 12 issues and your e-mail so we can spitball ideas and plots per issue. To easy oh and how about asking Geoff for an assist on Wonder Woman don't you cats share a studio?

AH: Yep, with Geoff Johns and Jeph Loeb.

BKV: Hey doesn't Loeb work at Marvel also?

AH: Yeah so?

BKV: Dude theres no real reason why you couldn't have asked Jeph to help you out. I mean if his son who died of cancer could keep writing until he was to sick to continue why not a healthy queen such as yourself keep up the pace on a comicbook?

AH: I suck..so you got me?

BKV: yeah man I got you.

 

[Kevin]

t:lol

 

[deemar325]

It's true LOL!

How easy would it be, for Joey Q to be like " Allen heres Brian's phone number and e-mail address, he'll call you Monday to go over the story arcs for the next year just tell him what you want to happen and BKV will deliver the rest."

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm not saying Allen wouldn't be involved in the writing of YA, just that since the guy can't be bothered to hunker down and write a full script of the ongoing (and it is supposed to be an ongoing series.) why not let another good writer (I elect Dan Slott or BKV) collaborate with Heinberg and knock out the issues.

Heres how it works example:

Allen Heinberg: Man I'm so busy and gay with my Hollywood work this month, I've got tons of ideas for what I want to happen with Patriot,Kate and the rest for the next 12 issues what to do? I know I'll call up Brian K. Vaughan.. *Dials up BKV*

dude no offense.. but i find that VERY offensive

 

[deemar325]

dude no offense.. but i find that VERY offensive

Sorry about that, I was commenting on his need to mention that he's gay in every interview or relate everything to his being gay.

It's not a knock on it.

I'm just really fed up with Heinberg's habit of putting comics on the back burner and expecting fans to kiss his feet when a issue comes out of YA. When the fix is so simple.