The Dark Knight new talk at the premiere - topping Jack

[66 Face]

Are there any movies where Jack Nicholson plays a character other than himself?

The Pledge and thats about it.

 

[El Payaso]

Caine said that because he is a good friend of Jack Nicholson and he respects him a lot as an actor.

Personally, i think that Jack's joker was decent, but it could be much better. Was more jack being jack in a joker costume, than joker himself.

The ironic angle is that Caine as Alfred was Caine as Caine in a tuxedo.

Hence the support?

 

[Boom]

The ironic angle is that Caine as Alfred was Caine as Caine in a tuxedo.

Hence the support?

Jesus says "NO" to actors playing themselves on screen .

 

[Infinity9999x]

I hope you won't blame me if I only read nitpicking there. Too serious sometimes, a little too not crazy enough, the laugh wasn't exactly the Joker's (supposing there is a real Joker to make comparisions)

It's ok if you like TKJ, I love it, but Joker has a long history and several interpretations. I really felt you were just bashing Nicholson for no reason.

Maybe I am nitpicking too much, but I suppose I just hold high expectations for my Joker. I really did like Nicholson's interpretation, and he was my favorite villian of the old Batman saga, I just think that we could get a better Joker, in my opinon of course, everybody has different views of what a good Joker is.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I hope you won't blame me if I only read nitpicking there. Too serious sometimes, a little too not crazy enough, the laugh wasn't exactly the Joker's (supposing there is a real Joker to make comparisions)

It's ok if you like TKJ, I love it, but Joker has a long history and several interpretations. I really felt you were just bashing Nicholson for no reason.

You know... this doesn't happen often, but... I agree with El Payaso.

I hate that criticism when it's used against anybody -- "Can Ledger do the laugh?" "Jack's laugh was wrong" "Hamill's laugh is definitive."

You know what? Hang it in your ear. What can you possibly compare this laugh to? In the comics it appears as PRINT. We can't hear it. So it sounds... however it sounds when a given actor is playing him. Doesn't matter if it's Cesar, Jack, Mark, or Heath.

Like Tim Burton said, this stuff is basically folk stories. Everybody's got their own version. There is no definitive telling. You don't have to like Jack's interpretation, but there isn't much wrong with it. I'd go so far as to say that the scenes he's in are the best in that movie.

He was very very evil. He was also very funny. Some prefer the balance to go more one way or the other, but, I had no problem at all with Jack's performance.

Now... all this crap about topping Jack or not topping Jack.

WHO CARES?

The whole point is that Nolan's interpretation is DIFFERENT from Burton's interpretation. Joker in TDK has to be a different Joker from Batman 89 or there's no point in doing another Joker movie. You can't beat Jack at what Jack did. Jack is Jack. He oozes cool from every molecule in his body.

But that doesn't mean that what Heath does won't be as good. The thing is that what Heath does will have to be different in order to stand out and be fresh and original. There'd be no point in copying what's already been done right. Instead you do something fresh and new and do it right, too.

And some will prefer Heath's version because it will be different from Jack's and it may come closer to what some people want.

For my part I've read enough Batman comics and seen enough different versions of the mythos that I'm open to different interpretations. I'm looking forward to seeing what Ledger does. I hope his performance blows me away, the way that Jack's did 17 years ago. And I hope it's completely different.

 

[Mr. Socko]

You know... this doesn't happen often, but... I agree with El Payaso.

You know what? Hang it in your ear. What can you possibly compare this laugh to? In the comics it appears as PRINT. We can't hear it. So it sounds... however it sounds when a given actor is playing him. Doesn't matter if it's Cesar, Jack, Mark, or Heath.

I can. It's my 7th Sense and it actually sounds like a squealing Pig with a pencil caught in his throat.

So actually, all of the actors' laughs are wrong.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I don't think it would be that hard for Ledger to top Jack, simply because Jack wasn't allowed to play an full version of the Joker. Nicholson didn't get to show any of the dual nature of the Joker ala killing Joke, or capture how the Joker fluctuates between a cartoon like personality to brutal killer as well as TAS did. Added to that, Nicholson didn't look like the Joker or have an iconic Joker laugh.

Now, I'm not saying Heath will do all these things, but he has an opportunity, and he's lucky because he's younger then Nicholson was and physically looks more like the Joker then Jack did.

So do I think Ledger will top Jack? I hope so. Can he? Definitely.

Jack's Joker laugh was iconic IMO. I thought it was more insane and creepy than Hamill's atleast.

And as far as I remember, Joker didn't really kill anyone in the animated series outside the movies.

 

[xanberkeley]

Whoooaa Im agreeing with El Payaso too. Totally weird. The whole compare and contrast will always happen among fans but as what others said I want Nolan's way and Ledger's way not stuff Ive already seen before. It also gives us something new to dissect and talk about.

 

[El Payaso]

This is El Payaso's week. I'm even in a signature dammit.

Incidentally, I agree with every word of Keyser's post.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

This is El Payaso's week. I'm even in a signature dammit.

Incidentally, I agree with every word of Keyser's post.

Who's, besides mine?

 

[El Payaso]

^ Just you. Thanks man. I'll give you one week of good luck. And a dinner with Untoppable Nicholson.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

^ Just you. Thanks man. I'll give you one week of good luck. And a dinner with Untoppable Nicholson.

Sweet, I better go see if my dress still fits

 

[Black Mamba]

It's going to be damn impossible to top JACK, especially with someone with low levels of charisma, and likeablity such as Heath Ledger...

Jack Nicholson's performance was the star attraction for Batman 1989. It is a cultural phenomenon. People have his performance so cemented in their conciousness, no one will believe that it can be topped, even if it has been. His name is virtually a synonym in mainstream circles as the Joker. Jack was just that good. It won't be topped. This performance, was Jack Nicholson's favorite performance... out of ALL the movies he has done. He says he watches it repeatedly, he enjoys it so much. One of the great theatrical performances in film, of all-time.

I'm just hoping they focus on bringing a different version of the Joker to the screen. Toned down flamboyancy, more cruel, sick twisted version, with a higher emphasis on macabre/morbid type humor.

Ya Dig?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

It's going to be damn impossible to top JACK, especially with someone with low levels of charisma, and likeablity such as Heath Ledger...

Jack Nicholson's performance was the star attraction for Batman 1989. It is a cultural phenomenon. People have his performance so cemented in their conciousness, no one will believe that it can be topped, even if it has been. His name is virtually a synonym in mainstream circles as the Joker. Jack was just that good. It won't be topped. This performance, was Jack Nicholson's favorite performance... out of ALL the movies he has done. He says he watches it repeatedly, he enjoys it so much. One of the great theatrical performances in film, of all-time.

I'm just hoping they focus on bringing a different version of the Joker to the screen. Toned down flamboyancy, more cruel, sick twisted version, with a higher emphasis on macabre/morbid type humor.

Ya Dig?

What's with all the Ledger hate?

The Jack is awesome. We know this. The Jack is SO amazingly awesome, you don't have to rip on a cool guy like Ledger in order to prove it.

 

[Bathead]

What's with all the Ledger hate?

The Jack is awesome. We know this. The Jack is SO amazingly awesome, you don't have to rip on a cool guy like Ledger in order to prove it.

I don't get the hate, either. Regardless of how one feels about Ledger's acting skills, we won't really know how he'll do as the Joker until we see his performance. For all anyone knows at this point, this could either be the best performance of his life, surpassing even Jack, or the worst. The general consensus amongst critics AFAIK, is that he is a good actor, and besides, that is one thing I am confident about Nolan and crew, they apparently know what they are doing as far as casting goes. So, until I see TDK, I personally will not make any judgements on his ability to portray the Joker.

 

[Black Mamba]

What's with all the Ledger hate?

Uhhh, where was I "hating" on Ledger there, cowboy?

The Jack is awesome. We know this. The Jack is SO amazingly awesome, you don't have to rip on a cool guy like Ledger in order to prove it.

I wasn't ripping Ledger. Especially not to prove Jack is such an awesome guy. Ledger isn't a "cool guy". Many consider him to be an arrogant, anti-social jerk. I wasn't ripping on him, just stating general consensus opinion on him.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I don't get the hate, either. Regardless of how one feels about Ledger's acting skills, we won't really know how he'll do as the Joker until we see his performance. For all anyone knows at this point, this could either be the best performance of his life, surpassing even Jack, or the worst. The general consensus amongst critics AFAIK, is that he is a good actor, and besides, that is one thing I am confident about Nolan and crew, they apparently know what they are doing as far as casting goes. So, until I see TDK, I personally will not make any judgements on his ability to portray the Joker.

Well and fairly stated.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Uhhh, where was I "hating" on Ledger there, cowboy?

Well:

It's going to be damn impossible to top JACK, especially with someone with low levels of charisma, and likeablity such as Heath Ledger...

Looks kinda like rippage to me.

I wasn't ripping Ledger. Especially not to prove Jack is such an awesome guy. Ledger isn't a "cool guy". Many consider him to be an arrogant, anti-social jerk.

There! You just did it again!

I wasn't ripping on him, just stating general consensus opinion on him.

Okay. Well by that logic, if I said "Black Mamba is a tool," I'm not ripping on you, I'm just stating an opinion.

Does that change the fact I insulted you? Of course not.

Look, pal, nobody on these boards actually KNOWS Heath Ledger. Not you, not me, not CConn, not anybody. So what gives you the right to act like you know for a fact what he's like? Maybe his is a jackass. I don't know.

What I know is, he's a good actor, and he deserves for fanboys to give him a shot in this role.

 

[Black Mamba]

Looks kinda like rippage to me.

That wasn't rippage, at all. That's my perception of Heath Ledger, the person. I wasn't "hating" on him. I wasn't "hating" on his abilities. Hating is going to the extreme to put down someone, continually... I wasn't doing that.

There! You just did it again!

Hardly.

Okay. Well by that logic, if I said "Black Mamba is a tool," I'm not ripping on you, I'm just stating an opinion.

Complete difference. We're talking about another person, a public figure, that is going to be in a Batman movie. This isn't a one on one showdown between me and you. I wasn't putting you down. I didn't say Ledger was a tool either. Just that he comes off anti-social, and doesn't have much charisma. This is obvious in interviews he does for press junkets and such. This wasn't 'ripping' anyone. Even if it were, did me taking shots at Heath Ledger offend YOU?!?! Don't catch feelings for someone you don't even know, or represent.

Look, pal, nobody on these boards actually KNOWS Heath Ledger. Not you, not me, not CConn, not anybody. So what gives you the right to act like you know for a fact what he's like? Maybe he is is a jackass. I don't know.

See, son, what would then give any of us the right to form any opinion on ANYONE we don't truly know? Fact is, we all have our opinions and perceptions. Deal with it. I didn't say you were a Heath Ledger "stan" because you said he WAS cool. I mean after all, we don't KNOW HIM, do we? I'm going off what I've seen and heard from him, and what I've heard of others opinions on him. And yes, he doesn't come off as a likeable guy. I certainly wasn't "hating on him". Because if you consider that hate, you don't know what "hate" truly is.

What I know is, he's a good actor, and he deserves for fanboys to give him a shot in this role.

Who said otherwise, kid?

The whole point was, my post wasn't even revolving around Ledger... or "hating on him". I stated what I wanted to see out of him as an actor, and what I'd like to see out of the Joker character in The Dark Knight. You caught feelings, jumped the gun, and felt the need to make a post crying that people are 'hating on Heath Ledger'. Seriously man, calm down. I wasn't taking a shot at Heath Ledger.

 

[CConn]

Look, pal, nobody on these boards actually KNOWS Heath Ledger. Not you, not me, not CConn, not anybody.

That's right.

But my aunt did go to High School with Calista Flockheart.

 

[El Payaso]

^ Did she eat back in the day?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

That wasn't rippage, at all. That's my perception of Heath Ledger, the person. I wasn't "hating" on him. I wasn't "hating" on his abilities. Hating is going to the extreme to put down someone, continually... I wasn't doing that.

Oh quite lawyering around. This is like Bill Clinton talking at length about the meaning of "is." You realize that, right? You made a negative remark about the guy... which is dissing him, which is what I was responding to. Sheesh.

Complete difference. We're talking about another person, a public figure, that is going to be in a Batman movie. This isn't a one on one showdown between me and you. I wasn't putting you down. I didn't say Ledger was a tool either. Just that he comes off anti-social, and doesn't have much charisma. This is obvious in interviews he does for press junkets and such. This wasn't 'ripping' anyone. Even if it were, did me taking shots at Heath Ledger offend YOU?!?! Don't catch feelings for someone you don't even know, or represent.

Why did it offend me? It didn't offend me. It just hits me as stupid to see people bashing Ledger (and whether you did or not, others have done so in this thread and on these boards) and the history there is part of what my comment referred to.

Now, you say he's anti-social, and maybe he is, I've no clue, but you also say that he's a public figure and that means you can say what you like about him. I think public figures still have a right to privacy, and I think that just because he's famous doesn't mean he has to enjoy doing interviews.

See, son, what would then give any of us the right to form any opinion on ANYONE we don't truly know? Fact is, we all have our opinions and perceptions. Deal with it. I didn't say you were a Heath Ledger "stan" because you said he WAS cool. I mean after all, we don't KNOW HIM, do we? I'm going off what I've seen and heard from him, and what I've heard of others opinions on him. And yes, he doesn't come off as a likeable guy. I certainly wasn't "hating on him". Because if you consider that hate, you don't know what "hate" truly is.

You know what? Hate might be a strong word but I was lumping you into a category with others on these boards who have spoken of him as a "terrible choice," & etc. That's what I got out of your remarks. Perhaps it wasn't what you intended but when you begin your post by calling the guy unlikeable and uncharismatic, it tends to flavor what comes after. Of course you will probably never write half as many words in your lifetime as I have, and do, professionally, so I can understand how the subleties in things like hierarchy of information and the careful selection of words might be beyond your level of competence.

To address your other point, so other people don't like Heath Ledger. Does that make their opinions of him true? Do you always let other people's opinions inform your outlook?

Who said otherwise, kid?

I think you have seriously misjudged the age situation here. There's good odds I'm older than you. And if I'm not, you still need to grow up.

The whole point was, my post wasn't even revolving around Ledger... or "hating on him". I stated what I wanted to see out of him as an actor, and what I'd like to see out of the Joker character in The Dark Knight. You caught feelings, jumped the gun, and felt the need to make a post crying that people are 'hating on Heath Ledger'. Seriously man, calm down. I wasn't taking a shot at Heath Ledger.

And you've managed to take a single comment I made and turn it into an argument about basic semantics and your right to state "other people's" opinions as facts. If anyone needs to calm down, it isn't me. All I said was I didn't get all the Ledger hate. And I still don't. I was not singling you out. I was lumping you in.

Deal with it.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

That's right.

But my aunt did go to High School with Calista Flockheart.

I thought I saw her, once, on the street, but I think it was just a doe-eyed lamp-post.

My aunt lived down the street from Ricky Schroeder back in the 70's, though.

 

[zer00]

There's this wonderful thing called reality. Everyone here should look into it.

 

[CConn]

...but my aunt really did go to High School Calista Flockheart.