The Dark Knight Nolan's Batman means...

[Canis Sapiens]

Did somebody say Robot Joker?

LMAO!

 

[Agentsands77]

Nolan's been quoted as saying they "won't make the same mistake" of the previous franchise by killing off the villains. And Goyer's said Joker will be the one to scar Harvey Dent in BB3, so you're probably wrong.

That's one of the single best contributions of this new series. The villains survive, and even if they don't appear again, you just know they're not killed off.

I love how Joker will apparently be a major part of THE DARK KNIGHT and BB3. If Goyer's comments hold true, the third film will deal with the trial of the Joker. It's a fascinating subject, one the comics have never truly explored, and it's nice to know that the Joker's potential isn't being entirely used up in one film.

 

[muertevilla]

Mr. Freeze has always been one of my favorite villians. I would love to see his character done some justice. ****ing arnold rocks as the turdminator, but as Mr. Freeze?? Well i just pretend batman and robin never happened. Since i was a kid i always saw Christopher Lloyd playing Mr. Freez3 (and laugh all you want..but just think of Doc from BTTF in the Mr. Freeze suit). I hope harley quin shows up. and well after seeing nolan's work, i totally trust the direction he goes in this next film. i think bane is a lame character all together and should just stay out of the batman films all together.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Thank you. Somebody I can agree with!

Harley Quinn is a character that, if used by Nolan, would have to be pretty radically reinvented. She's a fairly comical, campy character as we know her, and so Nolan would really have to change her. And if Nolan has to change her so much, I then have to ask, "What's the point of using the character?" Not to mention I'd prefer she wasn't used, period, just because I don't think the Joker needs a side-kick.

Though I do say, if they did want to do something interesting with Dr. Harleen Quinzel, they could. Have Dr. Harleen Quinzel meet Joker when he's incarcerated at the end of THE DARK KNIGHT. The Joker would then destroy her mind leading up to her helping him escape in BB3. The Joker could then just kill her. It's a big change, but it's delightfully disturbing - the Joker drives a person insane and then murders them. I know I'd like it.


Umm, the Joker should never be out for a "hot piece of ass." If anything, he's asexual in the sense of human relations. And what sexuality he does have manifests itself in violence, not in the act. The Joker has only one "love affair" of sorts, and that's with Batman.

You missed the point. Harley goes to Joker because she feels their hearts and souls are similiar. Joker could give a hell if she's tagging along or what. To me the easiest way to show that is make them a couple on the rocks like he beats her and slaps her, but she comes back looking for attention and for him to love her. He could give a **** less because he just wants to kill Batman and come up with many schemes as possible to bring him down. Harley of course will tag along and assist him, but she'll get nervous when he orders her around to shoot someone, or do this or do that, because let's face it unlike Joker she's got a guilty conscience that kicks in.

That's the way I see her in a Nolan Batman film because it seems like it fits his reality-mindset.

 

[Agentsands77]

I guess, but considering Nolan would have to radically change Harley's personality, what's the point of using her? If somebody could really explain to me why Harley Quinn is such an important thing to bring into the films, I'll be very happy. I do believe she could be done, but Nolan would really have to take quite a dark turn with the character.

I've never liked the Joker with a permanent sidekick ala Harley Quinn. I just don't see him with any consistent help and I've always wondered why he hasn't just killed her yet, especially when she's so incredibly inept. I've always thought of the Joker as a solo character. There should be no "couple" at all - the Joker shouldn't have a female consort.

 

[CConn]

I guess, but considering Nolan would have to radically change Harley's personality, what's the point of using her? If somebody could really explain to me why Harley Quinn is such an important thing to bring into the films, I'll be very happy. I do believe she could be done, but Nolan would really have to take quite a dark turn with the character.

I've never liked the Joker with a permanent sidekick ala Harley Quinn. I just don't see him with any consistent help and I've always wondered why he hasn't just killed her yet, especially when she's so incredibly inept. I've always thought of the Joker as a solo character. There should be no "couple" at all - the Joker shouldn't have a female consort.

See if you can find, and read, the Mad Love graphic novel by Timm and Dini. The really the best argument for Harley Quinn anyone could give. Maybe not for her importance to the Joker, but for her importance as a character in general. The book also demonstrates several character traits that he wouldn't need to "radically change" to bring to the screen seriously.

 

[Agentsands77]

See if you can find, and read, the Mad Love graphic novel by Timm and Dini.

I've read it. It's great for the Timm/Dini Batman world, but it's not something that makes me say, "Hey, let's bring this over into the normal continuity."

The really the best argument for Harley Quinn anyone could give. Maybe not for her importance to the Joker, but for her importance as a character in general.

It's good for what it is, but I still don't feel that her character is all that important. What do you specifically find so important about the character?

 

[CConn]

It's good for what it is, but I still don't feel that her character is all that important. What do you specifically find so important about the character?

Her motivation for being a villain. It's really quite different than any other villain's (at least any that I can think of). And I'm not particularly talking about her infatuation with the Joker, but rather what the infatuation means; weakness; submission.

While Catwoman and Poison Ivy are seemingly poster women for feminine power, while most villains prescribe to either egotism or outright murderous lunacy, Harley is different. Her psychosis doesn't turn her into an egotist or an outright serial killer, but instead makes her, in essence, a slave. A slave to the Joker, a slave to her own obsession. And that she would go to sound homocidal lengths in the name of that obsession is quite interesting to me to say the least.

IMO, certainly as interesting as it is to see why Joker, or Black Mask, or Zsasz, or Venom, or any of the other really great psycho killers in comics do the things they do. The specific reason why she's important as a character is she's twisted. But she does it in her own, interesting, way. Like every good psychopathic villain does.

 

[E-Mack]

Well written my man, well written.

If she's ever done in live-action, I wonder how they'll do her voice. In Mad Love, prior to her manipulation, she had a very womanly, but mature voice. Once she goes into Harley Quinzell mode, she sounds like a complete baby doll.

Never really bought the explanation (more like inferred, since it was never explained) that it was all psychological, but that's just me.

 

[Agentsands77]

That's an excellent explanation as to why the character's interesting and has really given me a newfound respect for the concept of the character, but I have yet to see the character reach the potential of that thematic development that you just described.

What I guess I really just don't find all that fascinating is the BTAS version of the character. It's not allowed to get as truly dark and as disturbing as that idea could really be, and it's played mostly for laughs with a cutesy personality and all that.

But if you make the character something terribly tragic, if you really make Harley Quinn an absolutely broken girl desperate for love but never receiving it, well you've got something there. You'd just really have to play up that bitter, dark tragedy of the character. Don't dress it up in comic relief or cutesy voices, just undress it for what it is.

Following that line of thought and interpretation, I think the ultimate culmination of her relationship wtih Joker would be the Joker killing her at some point down the line, solidifying her tragic status and the Joker's absolute inhumanity. If done right, it could be one of the greatest Joker moments of all time.

 

[E-Mack]

If the character hasn't reached that potential yet, all the more reason why it would be good to introduce her on film. It would bring something new to the table, while expanding on what was already previously written for Harley.

 

[Agentsands77]

If the character hasn't reached that potential yet, all the more reason why it would be good to introduce her on film. It would bring something new to the table, while expanding on what was already previously written for Harley.

It is actually a great case for using her. Take her basic origin and concept, then take the character to a whole new level of dramatic power. I'd be up for that, and I think it's definitely doable.

But if the character is going to be the Harley Quinn we've seen before, I don't have an interest in seeing that brought to the screen.

 

[E-Mack]

Well, actually the character was kinda always there. That description isn't far off from what we saw Harley as. The reason why it wasn't depicted to the level CConn explained it, is because it was simply a kid's cartoon.

Which btw, is a great testament to Paul Dini.

 

[Agentsands77]

Well, actually the character was kinda always there. That description isn't far off from what we saw Harley as. The reason why it wasn't depicted to the level CConn explained it, is because it was simply a kid's cartoon.

Yeah, but to me it doesn't cut it because it is kid-friendly, and while the potential was there, the character has mainly been used for comic relief. She has a jokey personality, a cutesy voice, etc. and so on. Somebody once remarked to me that the character had a great backstory, but none of it seemed to show up beyond that, and I agreed.

For Harley Quinn to really work and be emotionally powerful and gripping, it has to go into bolder territory and take the character to a level where she hasn't been.

Which btw, is a great testament to Paul Dini.

I love Paul Dini. The way he's reinvented so many of the Batman characters is fantastic (Mr. Freeze is now a terrific character thanks to him). I just don't think BTAS is really his best work because of how kid-friendly he was required to be. I do rather like a lot of his comic book work, though, and he's still the one behind the best-realized Joker origin to date ("Case Study" from BATMAN: BLACK AND WHITE).

 

[Agentsands77]

I hate this idea as much as I hate the idea of Joker killing Scarecrow. He doesn't need to kill any of the major or well known villains to show how crazy he is.

Of course he doesn't need to show he's crazy. But I'm not really arguing on those grounds. In the individual case of Harley Quinn, thematically, that's the best way to finally tie her character together in one story.

She's the ultimate slave, the ultimate tragic creature desperate for love but never receiving it. Thus, her end would be the same thing - the ultimate display of the Joker's absolute lack of humanity or anything resembling love. There's something about it that just so perfectly fits in a mythological sense.

And you have to understand, I'm not necessarily suggesting this gets shown in the movies, mind you. I think this would be better suited for the comics, to be quite honest.

I might be able to believe him leaving her to die the majority of the time because he always does that, but he doesn't need to kill her.

He doesn't need to outright kill her. It could just be leaving her to die and her actually dying, or something along those lines. But when that resolution comes (and it does have to come sooner or later), that's how it has to end to really bring the thematic end to the character.

Or another interesting twist would be to pull something like X3 with Mystique/Magneto, wherein Harley would die saving the Joker from a bullet or something like that, only to be left dying without a second thought from the Joker. That could really hold promise to - it would certainly be a haunting image to have her calling out to the Joker as he leaves her in a puddle of blood.

And besides, once the character has said what she's there to say, you might as well take her out of the picture. I do think you can only do so much with Harley Quinn because she's so tied to the Joker. She's always in that sort of sidekick role.

 

[CConn]

I'll be honest though, while Harley definitely has all of the potential depth I spoke of, probably all she would get, and all she would be needed for in TDK or BB3 is a pretty simple cameo/replacement for Jonathan Crane at Arkham. And honestly, as a fan of her, if she's cast well, I'll be perfectly fine with that (limited) role.

 

[Agentsands77]

She's no only always Joker's sidekick. She's teamed up with Poison Ivy before as a partner but she still acted as a sidekick, which I vy tries to snap her out of.

Eh, that stuff wasn't any great material. It wasn't a very successful attempt to get her out of the Joker sidekick role. But honestly, even that has limits. She'll run out of stuff to do on her own too - she's no criminal mastermind. If she does pull stuff on her own now, it would have a very "been there, done that" feel to it.

And even if she's not actually side-by-side with the Joker, she's always tied to him. It's always Harley and the Joker. She is a character that has defined herself by another human being, and that human being is the Joker. So they are somewhat inseparable.

Eventually, Harley Quinn will have to die. She's not a character of unlimited potential that's worth keeping around forever. And when that moment comes, there is a right way to do it.

 

[CConn]

She has a - simply put - submissive nature to her. That's just who she is, and like I said, in plays into what she's all about.

 

[Agentsands77]

I'll be honest though, while Harley definitely has all of the potential depth I spoke of, probably all she would get, and all she would be needed for in TDK or BB3 is a pretty simple cameo/replacement for Jonathan Crane at Arkham. And honestly, as a fan of her, if she's cast well, I'll be perfectly fine with that (limited) role.

Well, I could definitely live with that and it's all I'm expecting, really.

To be quite honest, I'd be far more interested in seeing Harley Quinn's potential depth explored in graphic novel form, anyhow, since it hasn't been explored there, either. I want to see her fully cross-over from the kid-oriented version and really come into her own, using that potential (and eventually at some point reach the tragic end I've been harping on).

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, the potential with Harley is to get ANOTHER dark side out of Joker.

People only pick on the cute side of they're relationship.....but essentially, she's the wife and the Joker is the absuive, wife beater.

He's beaten her before......and he constantly demeans her, and like CConn said....she's got a submissive nature. I think people would really really grow to hate the Joker even more for what he'd do to her, and the way he manipulates her really.

But, I think people only see the campy side of it....which, honestly....has never been quite campy at all.

 

[Shoemeister]

Did somebody say Robot Joker?

OH NO!!! TEH ROOMURZ BE TROO!!!!!111~

 

[Agentsands77]

She doesn't have to die, let her become a patient of Arkham so it could end her character with irony; First she works there, falls in love with crazy man, goes crazy, and ends up becomng a patient.

Her character already has that irony. She's been in Arkham. The irony of the doctor becoming a crazy person is already ingrained in her character. That provides no real resolution to her character, especially considering almost every villain ever has been confined in Arkham at one point or another, and it doesn't provide resolution.

The only truly final resolution for a character is how they die. That's how a character's journey is finally closed. Thematically, I think her death could be so dramatic and powerful and tragic (and thus, thematically fulfilling). Tragedy is the key here, and that needs to be played up for all its worth. That end would be such a magnificent moment in mythology that it's worth doing at some point.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Eventually, Harley Quinn will have to die. She's not a character of unlimited potential that's worth keeping around forever. And when that moment comes, there is a right way to do it.

Why kill her?

I'd prefer we just see him beat on her, belittle her......and kinda play on that sad abusive-submissive, relationship they have.

But......I don't see any reason to kill her at all. If she's introduced, I doubt it'd just be to add another kill to his list. It'd be pointless to even introduce her if that's the plan.

 

[Agentsands77]

But, I think people only see the campy side of it....which, honestly....has never been quite campy at all.

Oh yeah it has. She's been mostly comic relief. There's a darker theme under there, but it's never really been brought out because the character was initially written as kid-friendly, and then when she was transferred over to the normal comic book continuity, she was never brought into a more adult area.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

The only truly final resolution for a character is how they die. That's how a character's journey is finally closed. Thematically, I think her death could be so dramatic and powerful and tragic (and thus, thematically fulfilling). Tragedy is the key here, and that needs to be played up for all its worth. That end would be such a magnificent moment in mythology that it's worth doing at some point.

I dunno....you have the potential of alienating more fans, than making them, on something like that.

But, I think death can sometimes be a cop out. Like, we don't know what to do with her.....so....lets kill her. It's something that happens in comics too often.

I think it'd be even MORE tragic just to see her be with the Joker, and watch her be under his spell.