The Dark Knight Anyone think The Dark Knight might be Nolan's last Bat-movie?

Style 92

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Bear with me a moment before unilaterally dismissing this, (then unilaterally dismiss it.)

Batman movie to date have worked in twos. Now, before you accuse this of being coincidence, let me explain. I think there's a reason WHY they work in twos, and why Nolan may fall into the same trap:

Here's the deal: the three filmmakers who have tackled the modern Batfilms to date, (Burton, Schumacker, and Nolan) none of them have tried to make a definitive Batman movie. As in, a movie that is pure to the vision of Batman. Instead, they have all decided to adapt the Batman material to their own unique style of filmmaking. Burton didn't create Batman movies as such, as much as he made Tim Burton movies with Batman. The same for Schumacker and Nolan.

But it creates a 2-movie pattern. In the first film a director tackles, he does adapt Batman to his style, but he doesn't go overboard with it, and tries to maintain a balance with a more definitive Batman. It's hesitance. They know they are unproven, so they cast their net a little wider to appeal to more people. This is why the odd-numbered Batman movies are the less controversial set. (Batman, Batman Forever, Batman Begins.)

In the second film, the filmmaker has earned his cred. He's a proven commodity. So, he feels he has the right to engage in a Batman movie that is far more individualistic, far more a product of his own unique vision, with less emphasis on definitivity or hewing to the source material. As such, these movies tend to alienate both general audience members and general Batfans for straying as far as they do. They tend to only be embraced by those who are particularly enamored of that director's specific vision of Batman.

Now, it may be coincidence that this has happened twice, and may not happen again. But damn, if the early rumors are right, and the clown prince of crime is not clownish looking nor enamored of low comedy with a lethal twist, well, that suggests to me that Nolan is already thinking of departing further from established Batman lore.

Now, understand, there's nothing wrong with different people exploring different visions of Batman. It's just that the audience usually isn't that indulgent. Batman Returns not doing as good as Batman, Batman and Robin not doing as well as Batman Forever, and such. Also, the second film in the director's run on Batman tends to define his entire run. Batman Forever was not nearly as hokey or over the top as B&R, but they are remembered similarly. Batman Returns is more remembered for it's dark qualities, (many people I know describe it as gross, but I don't) and the first one is then remembered similarly. It also causes the director's vision to be ignored. Remember, there was a time when both Burton and Schumacker were hailed as the men who saved Batman, even if they are largley dismissed now.

And don't think it can't happen to Nolan, (witness the once coddled Bryan Singer now being savaged for Superman Returns.) I can just imagine what might happen with the next one: The "Joker" is not at all what people remember or were expecting. Therefore, People will feel let down. They were promised the Joker, and the promise wasn't properly fulfilled. This will leave a bad taste in their mouths. They will then start picking at other parts of the movie, perhaps calling it too dreary or full of itself, (if certain failins of BB continue, that is.) They will then notice some of these complaints also apply to BB, the movie will retroactively be rated negatively, Nolan's work will be dismissed and a new director will take over for the 7th one.

Again, I'm not saying this WILL happen, but, based on facts known and patterns to date, I think there's a good possibility it may happen.

Wait, did I just disparage Nolan and his vision of Batman? Let the flaming begin!
 
Nolan will stick around for a third. He's commited to making these Batman films his own. I don't think he'll give it up, especially since there are plans for a trilogy.
 
theShape said:
Nolan will stick around for a third. He's commited to making these Batman films his own. I don't think he'll give it up, especially since there are plans for a trilogy.
Yeah, but your assuming it's just a matter of him wanting to do a third. That's not my point. He could always be replaced.

Remember, Burton and Schumacker were both comitted to doing a third as well...
 
Style 92 said:
Yeah, but your assuming it's just a matter of him wanting to do a third. That's not my point. He could always be replaced.

Remember, Burton and Schumacker were both comitted to doing a third as well...

You gave reasons for him being replace, but I don't see that happening. These movies are THE Batman movies, no matter how much you want to deny it.

You can't really judge until you see the second movie and how it performs. I don't know what the point of speculating about this now is.
 
theShape said:
You gave reasons for him being replace, but I don't see that happening. These movies are THE Batman movies, no matter how much you want to deny it.
Well, maybe. But experience tells me that anyone who thinks they found the definitive vision of Batman that can and should endure through all time is kidding themselves. The best contender yet was Batman: The animated series, but even that had it's share of flaws and was ultimately replaced.

You can't really judge until you see the second movie and how it performs. I don't know what the point of speculating about this now is.
Because that's what this board is all about? speculating about a movie that's 2 years away. No matter what topic, it's absurd, but we all accept that absurdity and do it anyway. Except, when one guy doesn't like the way another guy is speculating and accuses him of something everyone is guilty of. *shrugs*
 
Goyer said that they were going to work with script of 3rd movie (when he also mentioned Joker scarring Dent).

So I doubt Nolan will leave this franchise. Besides he likes Batman as character and his world :up:

Don't think that what happened with Burton will also happen with Nolan. Burton's 1st movie made $250m, but 2nd got only $160m That was the problem.

And now BB made only $205m, but TDK will get $240-260m (I am sure it will be so, because of BB success in good WOM and DVD sales), so Nolan will feel success (every director has BO success as one of the reasons to continue franchise) and come back for making the last movie ;)
 
Style 92 said:
Well, maybe. But experience tells me that anyone who thinks they found the definitive vision of Batman that can and should endure through all time is kidding themselves. The best contender yet was Batman: The animated series, but even that had it's share of flaws and was ultimately replaced.

Let's put it this way:

BB was the first Batman movie that was all about Batman, rather than his rogues. It was also pretty much the most widely praised Batman film to date by fans, casual moviegoers, and critics.

There isn't and will never be a definitive Batman film. It's not possible, because everyone has their own vision Batman. Maybe it was Burton's, Schumacher's, or Nolan's. Or maybe it's a Batman from the comics we've never seen on screen. The truth is that when going through decades of source material, you can't just pick out one vision that will please all, when there are almost too many to count.

But this vision is pretty darn good if you ask me and most of the people around here.

Because that's what this board is all about? speculating about a movie that's 2 years away. No matter what topic, it's absurd, but we all accept that absurdity and do it anyway. Except, when one guy doesn't like the way another guy is speculating and accuses him of something everyone is guilty of. *shrugs*

Sorry. Keep speculating about whether or not Nolan will be replaced when TDK ends up sucking big time. I know it's a hypothetical situation. Continue.
 
theShape said:
Let's put it this way:

BB was the first Batman movie that was all about Batman, rather than his rogues. It was also pretty much the most widely praised Batman film to date by fans, casual moviegoers, and critics.

There isn't and will never be a definitive Batman film. It's not possible, because everyone has their own vision Batman. Maybe it was Burton's, Schumacher's, or Nolan's. Or maybe it's a Batman from the comics we've never seen on screen. The truth is that when going through decades of source material, you can't just pick out one vision that will please all, when there are almost too many to count.

But this vision is pretty darn good if you ask me and most of the people around here.
I'll accept this. It is a mitigation of what you originally said, but I appreciate the effort at peace keeping. :up:



Sorry. Keep speculating about whether or not Nolan will be replaced when TDK ends up sucking big time. I know it's a hypothetical situation. Continue.
Assuming that wasn't meant sarcastically, thank you.:up:

And anyway, the point of my thread was to delicatly bring up the topic about what if TDK isn't the best movie ever and disappoints some people, what would happen then? should the series go in a different direction? I thought my title for the thread was more delicat than just saying "What if the next one sucks," to which the reply would simply be "WTF DIE!" (an actualy quote, btw)

You know, intelligent hypotheticals. That's all.
 
Nolan will do 3 forsure... and that will be it most likely for him.....
 
Nolan will make the 3rd Batman movie...
 
From all I've read, Nolan will do a Trilogy. Which will be cool with me.

I made a similar remark in another thread similar to your assessment about the sequel to Batman movies and how the second movie from the respected director didn't live up to the first one and how strange this is where we are now at with Nolan's sequel approaching.

People are always ready to kill Joel Schumacher for 'Batman and Robin' (and deservabley so) but are quick to forget he actually keep the Batman movie franchise alive with 'Batman Forever'.

And whille I trust Nolan to make a successful sequel to 'Begins' and he has my eternal gratitude for 'Begins' in general, well, as Schumacher proved, anything can happen. One thing in his favor is the Title 'the Dark Knight', has pretty much been embraced by fans while Ledger as the Joker is still a BIG question for some.

And if he does miss the mark on this one I think the ramifications may be the worst because the expectations are so high.
 
Well, Schumacher is ******ed when it comes to characters like Batman, Nolan is smart...
 
If I remember Nolan is signed for a couple of movies to do Batman.
 
You have a good point about the 2nd film being "the one" that the director takes too far with his own vision. Fact is, there is no guarantee whether Nolan will fall into the same path. But he certainly came off to a good start (as did both Burton and Schumacher no matter what anyone says) based on the general audience's reactions.

What Nolan needs to realize, and he probably already does, is that Batman exceeds everyone. There is no definitive version, and for those that have the opportunity to write a story for the character, you're contributing to an already large melting pot. He just needs to make sure to add enough of his flair so he can call it his own, but to also keep in mind that Batman isn't his creation, so there are certain guidelines that have to be followed.

If BB is any indication, he understands this very well. Or else he wouldn't have hired Goyer to guide him in the essentials of Batman, and he also wouldn't have gone to the DC archives to research the character. Nolan's head is in the right place at the moment. Let's hope his focus isn't deterred because of BB's success.
 
E-Mack said:
You have a good point about the 2nd film being "the one" that the director takes too far with his own vision. Fact is, there is no guarantee whether Nolan will fall into the same path. But he certainly came off to a good start (as did both Burton and Schumacher no matter what anyone says) based on the general audience's reactions.

What Nolan needs to realize, and he probably already does, is that Batman exceeds everyone. There is no definitive version, and for those that have the opportunity to write a story for the character, you're contributing to an already large melting pot. He just needs to make sure to add enough of his flair so he can call it his own, but to also keep in mind that Batman isn't his creation, so there are certain guidelines that have to be followed.

If BB is any indication, he understands this very well. Or else he wouldn't have hired Goyer to guide him in the essentials of Batman, and he also wouldn't have gone to the DC archives to research the character. Nolan's head is in the right place at the moment. Let's hope his focus isn't deterred because of BB's success.


Listen, man. That was great. But I was too distracted by your avy. Seriously. I know you've gotten some serious praise for it, and rightfully so. I'm in love with it.

Do you have a bigger version????
 
Style 92 said:
The best contender yet was Batman: The animated series, but even that had it's share of flaws and was ultimately replaced.

Flaws? According to who? If you are implying it had flaws because it wasn't true to the "source material", you are refering to a medium that consistantly contradicts itself. There is no "definitive" Batman. Bill Finger and Bob Kane's Batman is drastically different from the Denny O'Neil, and Neal Adams Batman, which is drastically different from the Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers Batman, which is drastically different from the Frank Miller Batman. And that is just a small sampling of artists and writers through Batman's history which have all put their own unique spin on things. The only thing that is definitive in any way about the character are the core aspects of the character which have been present for the last 70 years. Batman: The Animated Series definitely had those qualities, as did Batman Begins. I always find it funny when people complain about things in the movies (or in the case of this post, apparently the animated series as well) not being true to the source material. I urge anyone to find an origin scene for just about any character in the Batman universe that hasn't been contradicted at some point in Batman's history. There have been about fifty different interpretations of the night Bruce's parents were murdered alone. Even post crisis stuff contradicts itself on a regular basis. My point is people need to stop complaining about certain things not being an accurate interpretation of the source material, because there seriously is no such thing anymore. Batman's history is so convoluted the best we can hope for is for Nolan to get the essence and the core of the characters correct. And I believe he definitely accomplished that, and will continue to do so with the Dark Knight.
 
souvlaki said:
Flaws? According to who? If you are implying it had flaws because it wasn't true to the "source material", you are refering to a medium that consistantly contradicts itself. There is no "definitive" Batman. Bill Finger and Bob Kane's Batman is drastically different from the Denny O'Neil, and Neal Adams Batman, which is drastically different from the Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers Batman, which is drastically different from the Frank Miller Batman. And that is just a small sampling of artists and writers through Batman's history which have all put their own unique spin on things. The only thing that is definitive in any way about the character are the core aspects of the character which have been present for the last 70 years. Batman: The Animated Series definitely had those qualities, as did Batman Begins. I always find it funny when people complain about things in the movies (or in the case of this post, apparently the animated series as well) not being true to the source material. I urge anyone to find an origin scene for just about any character in the Batman universe that hasn't been contradicted at some point in Batman's history. There have been about fifty different interpretations of the night Bruce's parents were murdered alone. Even post crisis stuff contradicts itself on a regular basis. My point is people need to stop complaining about certain things not being an accurate interpretation of the source material, because there seriously is no such thing anymore. Batman's history is so convoluted the best we can hope for is for Nolan to get the essence and the core of the characters correct. And I believe he definitely accomplished that, and will continue to do so with the Dark Knight.

I LOVE BTAS!!! It's probably a good 50x better than begins! "Mask of the Phantasm" is still the greatest Batfilm ever. I was just being honest however and admitting that even it wasn't flawless, (and I'm not talking in terms of comics continuity, that's why I ignored 75% of your post.)
 
As far as I remember Nolan and Goyer's pitch to WB was a trilogy. Goyer even went as far as saying Joker would be caught in the second leading to him creating Two Face in the third when he goes on trial. Basically Nolan wants to do three... another thing will be if TDK doesn't have the necessary response by the public...
 
Alonsovich said:
As far as I remember Nolan and Goyer's pitch to WB was a trilogy. Goyer even went as far as saying Joker would be caught in the second leading to him creating Two Face in the third when he goes on trial. Basically Nolan wants to do three... another thing will be if TDK doesn't have the necessary response by the public...

Sigh... No one reads the posts, just the titles.

Again, I'm not talking about whether he wants to do 3 or not. I know he WANTS to. But it's all a matter of if his vision is accepted in the second one. If it's not, he could be replaced.

For me, The Dark Knight, not Batman Begins, is do or die time for Nolan.
 
Style 92 said:
Sigh... No one reads the posts, just the titles.

Again, I'm not talking about whether he wants to do 3 or not. I know he WANTS to. But it's all a matter of if his vision is accepted in the second one. If it's not, he could be replaced.

For me, The Dark Knight, not Batman Begins, is do or die time for Nolan.

I think you didn't read the last sentence I wrote either... I did say it depends on the public going to see this movie... but that's something that neither you or me know if it's going to happen. For all we know it could be a huge flop or it could be a huge hit. First case doesn't mean no Nolan returning... it means batman's franchise definitive death, considering they've made already 6 films and a very recent reboot. Second case means he returns for the third.
 
does anybody know if Nolan's been signed until the 3rd movie? because if he is the question is moot.
 
Steelsheen said:
does anybody know if Nolan's been signed until the 3rd movie? because if he is the question is moot.
George Clooney was signed to do three Batman movies, and he only made one. Jonathan Frakes was signed to direct 3 Star Trek movies, and he only did 2.

The question is far from moot.
 
Style 92 said:
NOT. AT. ALL.

Please, I'm not THAT stupid.

It was joke, really. Sarcasm, you know.

Anyway, judging from your post I can tell you're not dumb. I found it to be a very well-thought essay.

But I think it's safe to say Nolan will be back. Don't let past mistakes interfere with your view of the present. Don't get nervous. It's fine. We're safe and so is Nolan. He'll do TDK justice.
 

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