The Dark Knight Rises Nolan's Villian Formula = Next Villains

[timwang2k]

So after watching TDK I noticed that Nolan has a "formula" for the villains he uses. In BB it was Ra's and ScareCrow. Ra's was the primary villain, a man who commited himself to cause bigger than him, like Batman. He wanted to end the moral decay in humanity. This cause came into direct conflict with Batman when he tried to destroy Gotham city, the same city that Batman was trying to save from corruption. Scarecrow was the secondary villain working with Ra's for power or money, but his aspirations were selfish and simple.

In TDK there was Joker and Two-Face. Joker was the primary villain and once again tried to be something more than just a man, like Batman. He was a self described agent of chaos. This was in direct conflict with Batman's goal of bringing order to Gotham. Two-Face was the secondary villain and his motives were selfish like ScareCrow's, he was out for revenge.

Looking at Nolan's formula, who will be the next primary villain? Who , like Batman, has goals that extend beyond him/herself? What villain can be cast as a symbol? What about secondary villain?


***Note: This thread isn't for ideas on who you think should be the next villains, we have enough of those already. This is a thread for sounding off on who you think Nolan will use considering his previous choices and how they relate to the formula above.

 

[timwang2k]

I'll bite. In another thread CryticOne hypothesizes that Batman himself will be the next villain...

Look at it like this, who did we know was going to be the villian in TDK at the end of Begins? The Joker.

Now, at the end of TDK, who was the "villain?" Batman.

Him against the city of Gotham. We don't need a villain like The Riddler, Catwoman, Clayface, or any other to headline the third movie.

I think the idea of Batman being the villain is sound. Looking at it like this it does parallel the end of the first movie with Gordan and Bats on the rooftop. But I would like to expand upon CrypticOne's idea.

Batman's questionable acts presented in TDK (the Brother Eye/cell phone thing) show that he is capable of going to extremes he never imagined. If the idea of escalation is continued then Batman will only be doomed to temporarily suspending his ethical code again. By the time we next see Batman he could've been tested and pushed for so long that he no longer notices that he is becoming more and more like the villains he faces. Hell, who knows how he's gonna hold up now that Rachel is gone?

In this sense I believe that Batman's primary source of conflict would be himself as CrypticOne describes. He will be fighting his own actions, thoughts, and motivations. If Batman is used as a villain he would fit into Nolan's primary villain role, since he would be the one who symbolizes something bigger than himself. Perhaps the Batman we see next would symbolize order at the cost of freedoms, privacy, etr? In fact now that I think about it, his whole plan to scare criminals is now gonna be turned into him scaring everybody.

The only problem I see with this is that Batman v. Batman is internal conflict. Internal Conflict being the primary source of conflict is fine for a drama, but not an action oriented movie.

I do agree with CrypticOne's idea that Gotham will be a source of conflict, I think the city could serve as the secondary antagonist.

 

[CrypticOne]

I like the thread.

Well, having Batman as the "villain" in the third movie, is the only way I can see the third movie being made. After having The Joker explode in TDK, what villain would be able to top his actions and Heath's performance? No one. And no villain. The Joker is Batman's yang to his ying.

Now Batman would still be a hero, just not in the public's eyes. Everybody would hate him and the cops will, now more than ever, be after him. That'd be the top priorty in Gotham. Capture the Batman.

The mob would be the secondary villain, from where I stand. And Batman will be wanting to put them down for good.

By the end of the third movie, Batman would be seen as Gotham's Knight.

 

[christpunchers]

Kevin Spacey as the Riddler!

 

[Venom 1988]

Kevin Spacey as the Riddler!

I don't think you got the point of this thread....>_>

 

[timwang2k]

After having The Joker explode in TDK, what villain would be able to top his actions and Heath's performance? No one.

Yes, we might be going back to Begins where it was really Batman centric. I almost feel bad that Joker was used in the second act of the trilogy instead of the final one. But I think that must mean that Nolan has an even bigger threat in store for the caped crusader....

Now Batman would still be a hero, just not in the public's eyes. Everybody would hate him and the cops will, now more than ever, be after him.

I think Batman would still be the hero, I just think that also Batman would be a threat to himself. For part 3 we need the biggest threat Batman is going to face, and I think that title belongs to Batman himself. These threat could be paranoia, the distrust of those who are close to him, the ability to go as far as he needs to fight evil (save for the one rule). A darker Batman also fits the bill for Nolan's preference of a villain whose goals extend beyond himself.

I don't want to compare this movie with Empire Strikes Back like I've seen some people do, but I do see the potential and foreshadowing for Batman to go down a darker path like Luke and find himself looking more and more like the criminals he's sworn to fight against.

The mob would be the secondary villain, from where I stand.

I'm sure the mob will be in there once again. hmmm...

hmmm....so for you it's
Batman vs Gotham and
Batman vs Mob?

For me it's
Batman vs Batman and
Batman vs Gotham

Gotham would be represented by the police and para-military units as well as the citizens. They would be acting out of fear and necessity to bring Batman to justice. These goals fall close to Two-Face and ScareCrow's in that they are relatively simple in nature, their mission is accomplished once Batman is behind bars.

Although the mob does meet Nolan's requirements for a secondary villain, my concern is that the mob would not offer enough of a challenge for Batman, and would be somewhat old hat since Nolan's used them twice already. Also I think there needs to be some kind of face for the mob, someone who is synonymous with organized crime in Gotham.

Thanks for stopping by!

 

[Matt.S99]

Batman being a ''villain'' to the rest of the city sounds good. But i dont think that should go on for the whole movie. Batman needs of villain of his own. so it will basically be Gotham vs Batman vs The villain

And i like the whole Nolan formula thing. And riddler would fit right in. He would be the scarecrow/two face. Maybe he can set up riddles for batman and every riddle, he gets one step closer to revealing who Batman really is. He can do this for his own selfishness maybe trying to make himself ''famous'' per say. Becoming a famous name to the people of gotham because he revealed batmans identity and he is no longer frowned upon or ''bullied'' the way he was before he became the riddler. Maybe when he was just Edward Nygma, alot like BF, he would come up with crazy ideas, but no one believed they would work and/ or just thought he was crazy...

 

[CrypticOne]

I'm actually glad The Joker was used in TDK. The story Nolan is telling, he would need a character like The Joker, in TDK. To really test Batman's limits, and now Batman knows his limits. Now Batman is The Dark Knight we all know.

I really don't think Bruce/Batman would be a threat to himself. You're forgetting one character that makes Bruce stay in the line, and that is Alfred. Plus, Bruce will be looking for ways to make Batman be loved by Gotham in this next movie, a way to clear Batman's name.

Well, in the third movie, I think Batman will face all of Gotham, cops, the mob, the general public wanting him captured.

The mob, still has a face, Sal Maroni.

Spoiler

Assuming that he isn't dead.

I just think the mob is a big part of Nolan's Batman and his story.

 

[Matt.S99]

He isnt, it didnt show anything to show that he might have died anyways.

 

[CrypticOne]

Batman being a ''villain'' to the rest of the city sounds good. But i dont think that should go on for the whole movie. Batman needs of villain of his own. so it will basically be Gotham vs Batman vs The villain

And i like the whole Nolan formula thing. And riddler would fit right in. He would be the scarecrow/two face. Maybe he can set up riddles for batman and every riddle, he gets one step closer to revealing who Batman really is. He can do this for his own selfishness maybe trying to make himself ''famous'' per say. Becoming a famous name to the people of gotham because he revealed batmans identity and he is no longer frowned upon or ''bullied'' the way he was before he became the riddler. Maybe when he was just Edward Nygma, alot like BF, he would come up with crazy ideas, but no one believed they would work and/ or just thought he was crazy...

Why does Batman need a villain like The Riddler though? Don't get me wrong, he is a great character, but in the Nolan universe and what has happened in Begins and TDK, I just don't see Nolan adding another villain.

 

[CrypticOne]

He isnt, it didnt show anything to show that he might have died anyways.

Spoiler

Did you miss the car crash?

 

[timwang2k]

And i like the whole Nolan formula thing. And riddler would fit right in. He would be the scarecrow/two face. Maybe he can set up riddles for batman and every riddle, he gets one step closer to revealing who Batman really is. He can do this for his own selfishness maybe trying to make himself ''famous'' per say. Becoming a famous name to the people of gotham because he revealed batmans identity and he is no longer frowned upon or ''bullied'' the way he was before he became the riddler. Maybe when he was just Edward Nygma, alot like BF, he would come up with crazy ideas, but no one believed they would work and/ or just thought he was crazy...

I don't see how the riddles bring riddler one step closer to Batman's identity. Although I think it would be interesting if Riddler figured out Batman's secret and he broadcasted his Riddles to everyone so that with each riddle solved the public would come closer and closer to knowing the truth. And of course at the same time he would be screwing with Batman.

Yeah, I definitely agree that Riddler isn't capable of being the main villain. Him wanting to outsmart Batman just isn't enough.

 

[Venom 1988]

Yes, we might be going back to Begins where it was really Batman centric. I almost feel bad that Joker was used in the second act of the trilogy instead of the final one. But I think that must mean that Nolan has an even bigger threat in store for the caped crusader....

I agree because this way we could see the city evolved into a totally new character. And I'm actually glad Joker was used in the "second act" of the trilogy. Why? because if the next movie is indeed Batman centric, the Joker could be seen as the transition between the old Gotham and the new Freak Gotham.

 

[timwang2k]

I really don't think Bruce/Batman would be a threat to himself. You're forgetting one character that makes Bruce stay in the line, and that is Alfred. Plus, Bruce will be looking for ways to make Batman be loved by Gotham in this next movie, a way to clear Batman's name.

Yes, Alfred is a rock in Bruce's life. At this point I think he is the ONLY thing in the movies that is keeping him sane (or close enough to sane). But that's putting a big burden on Alfred's shoulders and frankly he needs something else because Alfred won't be around forever. I have to wonder what kind of ramifications will Rachel's death have in Bruce's life beside just not having a love interest.

I just think the mob is a big part of Nolan's Batman and his story.

Me too. I want the mob to still be around, but I'd prefer at the level of TDK where they weren't a major enemy in the movie.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I don't think Riddler would work in that Batman won't be working with the cops and only with Gordon... not that he works with police... but he can't even share a scene with cops at a crime scene involving the Riddler... that's a problem.

Spoiler

The guy is wanted for MURDER

... I find it hard to believe that he is tracking down the city's most cunning villains without coming into contact with law enforcement. On the otherhand... Catwoman would work because Batman wouldn't be trying to bring her down necessarily. Plus I don't want a throw away love interest like Vickie Vale or someone. Catwoman still makes perfect sense even if she's the main villain. The primary conflict however is the mob getting stronger while Batman tries to regain the city's trust. I could live with a bunch of villains that are hitmen for the mob. I wouldn't mind if the mob along with hired guns were the main threat. No need for Riddler unless they write him in as the mob's new mastermind... which doesn't fit the bill for his character.

 

[Matt.S99]

Spoiler

Did you miss the car crash?

oh ya, forgot about that

Why does Batman need a villain like The Riddler though? Don't get me wrong, he is a great character, but in the Nolan universe and what has happened in Begins and TDK, I just don't see Nolan adding another villain.

it coul work. Maybe not as the main villain, but i think the riddler would bring something really cool to the table

I don't see how the riddles bring riddler one step closer to Batman's identity. Although I think it would be interesting if Riddler figured out Batman's secret and he broadcasted his Riddles to everyone so that with each riddle solved the public would come closer and closer to knowing the truth. And of course at the same time he would be screwing with Batman.

Yeah, I definitely agree that Riddler isn't capable of being the main villain. Him wanting to outsmart Batman just isn't enough.

no, no. Not riddler getting one step closer to knowing batmans identity. I would do it that he already knows batmans identity(dont know if he would know if it was the right person tho) and he would have these riddles broadcast on tv like you said, and with every riddle, the riddler gets one step closer to revealing batmans identity to the public.

 

[TLH]

Batman as the villain is fine and I see what is being driven at with this idea. However, you need a villain to draw people in. Batman Begins was a fantastic film, but you can't revert back to a film that only features Batman...it's a regress.

You at least need SOME villain in the third that provides some cool action sequences or a plot line. I have never seen a superhero film without a villain before, and much as the idea is original and truly interesting, I don't think one would hold up without a villain.

 

[He-Man]

There is going to be a villain. No villain = Superman Returns. The idea of Batman vs the mob and just trying to clear his name isn't going to do it. There has to be a primary antagonist.
Not a knock on SR but people wanted to see more than Supes flying around saving people.
People will want to see more than Batman vs avereage job mobster and trying to clear his name.

 

[giggs11uk]

I like IGN.com's idea of having the Riddler work with the police to bring down batman

This gives u the Batman vs. Batman inner conflict and the Batman vs. Gotham external conflict and it also gives WB a villain to promote without compromising the story

 

[Brian2887]

The beloved philanthropist Roman Sionis can be the villain.

Batman is hated, hunted. What could turn Gotham on him even more than going after the city's favorite son?

Sionis could be what people wish Bruce Wayne was. He's wealthy, but he uses his money to help Gotham, not bed a troupe of Russian ballet dancers. But, of course, behind the scenes, Sionis rules Gotham's underbelly as Black Mask.

Meanwhile, Selina Kyle is out for vengeance on the mob and Sionis, taking their money, maybe even killing them. Her cat burglar persona could be a test for Batman on his limits. Why is he still being a hero when he's despised. Like Catwoman, he could use his skills for personal gain. She's a temptation on many different levels.

In the end, of course, Batman keeps his standards and reveals Sionis to be a villain. Batman / Bruce Wayne is redeemed.

 

[Juggernaut423]

Options for the next film that I think all could be viable with Batman turning into a wanted vigilante

#1: Traditional Penguin Mobster + hired hitman (Bane / Deadshot)
#2: Holiday Killer for more Two-Face material.
#3: Talia al Ghul and Lady Shiva for Ra's al Ghul material
#4: Black Mask (mobster introduction)
#5: Hush
#6: The Riddler
#7: The Red Hood
#8: Hugo Strange (Bruce Wayne gets therapy and sets up his intro)

 

[66 Face]

Something that I was really hoping for was for the 3rd film to be about Two Face. There's just so much that can be done with that character.

Another thing that I would love to see covered would be for the Joker to go on trial and be given the death sentance. I would love to see Batmans reaction to that.

Also maybe The Penguin can come to Gothem and kind of group together the broken pieces of the mob. Unifying them and making them stronger while attacking Wayne Industries and Bruce Wayne.

All I really know is that I want to see a community of villians instead of the "your turn" merry-go-round.

 

[giggs11uk]

this thread is getting off topic

 

[CrypticOne]

Batman as the villain is fine and I see what is being driven at with this idea. However, you need a villain to draw people in. Batman Begins was a fantastic film, but you can't revert back to a film that only features Batman...it's a regress.

You at least need SOME villain in the third that provides some cool action sequences or a plot line. I have never seen a superhero film without a villain before, and much as the idea is original and truly interesting, I don't think one would hold up without a villain.

Good point.

You see, people these days don't have the attention span to just deal with a great, amazing story. They need a villain.

If there is a villain in BB3, the only thing I see working is Two Face. You can't just throw Catwoman, The Riddler in. How can they fit into Nolan's real ongoing story? People really need to watch Batman Begins and The Dark Knight and really understand these movies. This is Batman's story. His beginning. His transformation into Gotham's Knight. His tear through organized crime. His rebuilding of Gotham.

 

[CrypticOne]

There is going to be a villain. No villain = Superman Returns. The idea of Batman vs the mob and just trying to clear his name isn't going to do it. There has to be a primary antagonist.
Not a knock on SR but people wanted to see more than Supes flying around saving people.
People will want to see more than Batman vs avereage job mobster and trying to clear his name.

Not true. You can do it, you just have to do it right. Singer didn't do it right.

Plus, you're dealing with a genius like Nolan.