Official 2011 MLB Thread: Playoffs??

[Spidey-Bat]

Not yet but he did reach 3000 sooner in his career than Rose did.

Compare their age 36 seasons to their career numbers before then

Rose career before 36: .311/.381/.433
Rose at 36: .311/.377/.432
Difference: 0/-4/-1

Jeter career before 36: .318/.388/.459
Jeter at 36: .270/.340/.370
Difference: -48/-48/-89

As you can see, Rose was still putting up his typical career numbers very late into his career. Meanwhile, Jeter has had a very significant drop off. Rose continued to hit like this until age 40, and 41 he still had a good season. 42 is when he started to decline.

In conclusion, Jeter got 3,000 hits earlier, but he's also declining 5 years earlier than Rose did. Meaning Jeter will likely have to play into his late 40's to reach 4,000 his.

 

[BlackLantern]

it's still a great achievement IMHO

 

[KalMart]

Compare their age 36 seasons to their career numbers before then

Rose career before 36: .311/.381/.433
Rose at 36: .311/.377/.432
Difference: 0/-4/-1

Jeter career before 36: .318/.388/.459
Jeter at 36: .270/.340/.370
Difference: -48/-48/-89

As you can see, Rose was still putting up his typical career numbers very late into his career. Meanwhile, Jeter has had a very significant drop off. Rose continued to hit like this until age 40, and 41 he still had a good season. 42 is when he started to decline.

Yeah, I don't think Jeter will ever beat Rose for career hits anyway. That's pretty tough to ask of anyone.

In conclusion, Jeter got 3,000 hits earlier, but he's also declining 5 years earlier than Rose did. Meaning Jeter will likely have to play into his late 40's to reach 4,000 his.

Oh, Jeter's not as naturally gifted a hitter as Rose is. BUT....if you look at all the postseason numbers, championships, and the fact that he's played shortstop the entire time...the 3000 stamps his ticket to Cooperstown, and he's without a doubt the fifth 'face' on the 'Mount Rushmore' of Yankee greats, even though he's not quite the offensive machine that Ruth, Gherig, DiMaggiio, and Mantle were. He's also played in a lot more postseason games than Rose did, which take a lot out of you as well....and he has top postseason numbers to boot.

I think that 3000 hits actually encompasses more for Jeter, because it calls attention to his consistency and overall play. With the exception of ARod who changed positions, he's also outlasted all of his top contemporaries in his position...Garciapara, Tejada, Ordonez....all of whom were considered better hitters or fielders by some.

 

[KalMart]

It's puzzling that anyone, let alone an Asian person would be named Hank these days.

I'm Asian, and my name's Ray. And you know how Asians are with L's and R's.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Oh, Jeter's not as naturally gifted a hitter as Rose is. BUT....if you look at all the postseason numbers, championships, and the fact that he's played shortstop the entire time...the 3000 stamps his ticket to Cooperstown, and he's without a doubt the fifth 'face' on the 'Mount Rushmore' of Yankee greats, even though he's not quite the offensive machine that Ruth, Gherig, DiMaggiio, and Mantle were. He's also played in a lot more postseason games than Rose did, which take a lot out of you as well....and he has top postseason numbers to boot.

Rose played in fewer post-season games because there wasn't a permanent division series until 1993 and Rose played 7 years before the championship series were created. Rose also played during an era when double-headers were regularly scheduled.

Jeter was going to the Hall of Fame even if he retired before yesterday with 2,998. Also, he's not even in the top 5 Yankees of all time.

I think that 3000 hits actually encompasses more for Jeter, because it calls attention to his consistency and overall play. With the exception of ARod who changed positions, he's also outlasted all of his top contemporaries in his position...Garciapara, Tejada, Ordonez....all of whom were considered better hitters or fielders by some.

Garciaparra and Tejada moved because they got worse, Jeter has too much of an ego to move from SS which should have been done years ago.

 

[KalMart]

Rose played in fewer post-season games because there wasn't a permanent division series until 1993 and Rose played 7 years before the championship series were created. Rose also played during an era when double-headers were regularly scheduled.

Again, this isn't about whether Jeter was a better player than Rose...he isn't a better player than ARod, for that matter.

But even if you bring up than there are more playoff series these days...how has Jeter done in those series as a whole? He's excelled, so by all measures, he's met the challenges of the game presented to him just as well, and better than his peers.

Jeter was going to the Hall of Fame even if he retired before yesterday with 2,998. Also, he's not even in the top 5 Yankees of all time.

Numbers-wise, no. Yogi Berra is a more accomplished player. But as a leader/personality, and really the face of the game, he is on that pantheon....and he's earned it, especially in an era tainted by steroids.

Garciaparra and Tejada moved because they got worse, Jeter has too much of an ego to move from SS which should have been done years ago.

Yet he still won a Gold Glove last year, and has still suffered less injuries and setbacks than the others while still playing such a demanding position. There's an even sharper decline with those other players even after they've moved positions. Yes, he is 'holding out' from moving out of the position, and the end is near, but he is not the liability that you're making him out to be...yet. The majority of knocks on Jeter are because he's on the Yankees...but despite the media 'hype', he has earned his place as a top overall player in his generation through his play. Reaching 3000 hits is a testament to that any way you slice it.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Again, this isn't about whether Jeter was a better player than Rose...he isn't a better player than ARod, for that matter.

But even if you bring up than there are more playoff series these days...how has Jeter done in those series as a whole? He's excelled, so by all measures, he's met the challenges of the game presented to him just as well, and better than his peers.

But you just mentioned post-season games, not how well he did in them.

Numbers-wise, no. Yogi Berra is a more accomplished player. But as a leader/personality, and really the face of the game, he is on that pantheon....and he's earned it, especially in an era tainted by steroids.

His leadership is overrated and his personality is really non-existent. He's #6 at most on the list of great Yankees.

Yet he still won a Gold Glove last year, and has still suffered less injuries and setbacks than the others while still playing such a demanding position. There's an even sharper decline with those other players even after they've moved positions. Yes, he is 'holding out' from moving out of the position, and the end is near, but he is not the liability that you're making him out to be...yet. The majority of knocks on Jeter are because he's on the Yankees...but despite the media 'hype', he has earned his place as a top overall player in his generation through his play. Reaching 3000 hits is a testament to that any way you slice it.

Gold Glove awards are a joke and often awarded just for offense. He's been a below-average fielder for many years, not because he's a Yankee.


I don't doubt his legacy as one of the best players of this era so there's no need to defend him as being a Hall of Famer. As I said, he's been one for a few years and would still have been one if he retired before getting 3,000 hits.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

I'm Asian, and my name's Ray. And you know how Asians are with L's and R's.

Actually no, I don't.

and his personality is really non-existent.

Relevance?

Can't we all just appreciate the accomplishment for one day, it's not as if 3K comes around every other year.

 

[Kingfish]

It's puzzling that anyone, let alone an Asian person would be named Hank these days.

His real name is Hyun. Hank Aaaron was his father's favorite player so that's why it's his nickname. At least that's what he's said in interviews.

 

[KalMart]

But you just mentioned post-season games, not how well he did in them.

I mentioned them because they have added to the wear and tear he's taken by his age, and I mentioned later how well he's done in them because I felt it's worth mentioning. Not that Rose was any less tough...by all means he was more physically robust than Jeter ever was. But Jeter syill deserves credit for his longevity and consistency

His leadership is overrated and his personality is really non-existent.

By who? Not by players who have played with him, or coaches that have coached him. By Yankee-haters...sure.

He's #6 at most on the list of great Yankees.

Which is pretty darn impressive when you consider the company of 1-5. And as far as leadership and character...you can put him above at least two of those five.

Gold Glove awards are a joke and often awarded just for offense. He's been a below-average fielder for many years, not because he's a Yankee.

Below-average is too extreme. He hasn't been a liability yet. But he's definitely approaching his last legs in that regard. But being the shortstop isn't just about stopping hard ground balls...he's still one of the smarter infielders in the game at playing his position and capitalizing on baserunning mistakes, etc. He's always seen the field extremely well and been the cornerstone of the overall defense. That doesn't change, even if his range does.

I don't doubt his legacy as one of the best players of this era so there's no need to defend him as being a Hall of Famer.

I wasn't defending that or anything else...I was commending it.

As I said, he's been one for a few years and would still have been one if he retired before getting 3,000 hits.

And 3000 is further testament to that...as I said. That's what milestones do.

 

[KalMart]

Actually no, I don't.

They're allergic to them.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

By who? Not by players who have played with him, or coaches that have coached him. By Yankee-haters...sure.

He's a lead by example type, but no more. Posada was more of the captain than he was back in the day.

Below-average is too extreme. He hasn't been a liability yet. But he's definitely approaching his last legs in that regard. But being the shortstop isn't just about stopping hard ground balls...he's still one of the smarter infielders in the game at playing his position and capitalizing on baserunning mistakes, etc. He's always seen the field extremely well and been the cornerstone of the overall defense. That doesn't change, even if his range does.

Below-average is more than fair to describe him at shortshop. He's always had horrible range to his left and his pirouette he's known for isn't done by most other shortstops because they get to the ball in time to plant themselves for the throw.

 

[KalMart]

He's a lead by example type, but no more.

And it's meant a lot to those around him...examples go further than just between the foul lines. And no, he's not a get-in-your-face type of leader, but that's not the only kind that matters. And there have been times when he's had to 'step in'. I met and spoke with John Flaherty about his time on the Yanks, and he recalled when Jeter actually had a talk with Sheffield about some issues. Granted, Posada may have gotten in an fight with him, but he still stepped up beyond just 'leading by example'. So it's not just what you do, but how, and how it translates.

And again, if you want to look at the Yankees above him on the all-time totem pole...we're talking about at least two notorious carousers who would show up to games hung over or overstuffed from gluttony, a stoic and insulated loner, and one...who modestly lead by example...like Jeter. Tough crowd.

Below-average is more than fair to describe him at shortshop. He's always had horrible range to his left and his pirouette he's known for isn't done by most other shortstops because they get to the ball in time to plant themselves for the throw.

Again, there's more to his defensive play than fielding ground balls.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Yeah, there's also catching fly balls. When you're a shortstop, most of what you do is field ground balls which Jeter has never been good at.

 

[KalMart]

Yeah, there's also catching fly balls. When you're a shortstop, most of what you do is field ground balls which Jeter has never been good at.

No, he has been good, but not one of the best in that area. There's also making great relay throws for key outs, making runners pay for bad baserunning, a little backhand flip play against Oakland in '01 that no player, SS or otherwise, would have had the wherewithal to be there for, and plenty more.


See...it seems like you're trying to knock his celebrity status by knocking his play. I'm not claiming that he's one of the top 5 shortstops ever. But as far as an entire package as a player, leader, and representative of his team and the game itself...who has been better over the last 16 years? Yes, he was given the spotlight by being on the Yankees....but hasn't he made the most of it in a way that any player would be proud to have done themselves?

That's what his milestones celebrate, and I think he's earned that appreciation from baseball fans and players alike.....pro-Yankee or not. There are a plethora of things that can keep a player from reaching a stat like 3000 hits...even ones that are better offensive producers than him. But they didn't stop him....and I think that's quite an achievement that you have to credit to him, his play, and his character when you consider all things.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

You're right. All the defensive metrics that say Jeter is a below-average fielder are wrong.

 

[KalMart]

You're right. All the defensive metrics that say Jeter is a below-average fielder are wrong. He has teh intangibles!!!1!1

He has 'teh ire' of teh Yankee haters, for sure.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

Yeah, it's not clever to intentionally say "teh" anymore.

 

[KalMart]

Yeah, it's not clever to intentionally say "teh" anymore.

Was it ever?

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

I'm not claiming that he's one of the top 5 shortstops ever.

He is a top 5 SS of all time, there shouldn't be any debate about that. The debate should be rather how great he is compared to Ripken/Wagner/Yount. I would like to see that debate.

 

[KalMart]

He is a top 5 SS of all time, there shouldn't be any debate about that. The debate should be rather how great he is compared to Ripken/Wagner/Yount. I would like to see that debate.

Top 5 is still debatable in some circles...I'd say by the time his career is over, he'll just make it in there...but ARod will still probably rank higher.

 

[ih8nyy]

Interesting debate this AM on WEEI in Boston.

1.) Who is the worst 2 time all-star in MLB History?
(They went with former Sox 3rd Baseman Scott Cooper)

2.) Who is the greatest player to never play in an all-star game?
(They went with Kirk Gibson)

I was shocked Gibson had never been on an All-Star team.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

He has 'teh ire' of teh Yankee haters, for sure.

Even my friends who are Yankee fans agree he's a below-average fielder.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

2.) Who is the greatest player to never play in an all-star game?
(They went with Kirk Gibson)

I was shocked Gibson had never been on an All-Star team.

IIRC Gibson was named to the All-Star team on a couple occasions, however he turned it down every time.

 

[ih8nyy]

IIRC Gibson was named to the All-Star team on a couple occasions, however he turned it down every time.

Ok, now I found that he was a reserve twice and turned it down.