Official 2011 MLB Thread

[Kingfish]

I'm not suggesting post season performance should be factored into the HOF criteria, but I think it helps increase the candidacy of a borderline player like Pettitte, regardless of how specific it is. Look at Schilling, his post season success is like the only thing that gives him a shot at the HOF, which just goes to show how much that can factor in.

Except Pettitte isn't even a borderline player without the postseason factored in. It's the only thing that even makes him worth discussing.

Schilling has a better case. He was a MUCH more dominant player for a longer period. The numbers for the two aren't even close to comparable.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

Except Pettitte isn't even a borderline player without the postseason factored in. It's the only thing that even makes him worth discussing.

Schilling has a better case. He was a MUCH more dominant player for a longer period. The numbers for the two aren't even close to comparable.

No, I didn't say that because I think the post season numbers will give him a consideration at the HOF. It's because the voters and writers see it that way.

Pettitte = not a HOF, but will be decently considered due to post season numbers that aren't any different from career norms.

 

[Kingfish]

No, I didn't say that because I think the post season numbers will give him a consideration at the HOF. It's because the voters and writers see it that way.

Pettitte = not a HOF, but will be decently considered due to post season numbers that aren't any different from career norms.

We'll probably get a pretty decent idea of what will happen based on whether or not Jack Morris gets in.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

Morris won't get in. He hasn't come close to 75% yet. Mike Mussina has a better HOF case than Pettitte.

 

[Franklin Richards]

He reminds me of Troy Aikman. During his career he was never compared to Young or Cunningham. But you had to put him in the Hall. He was a great manager of the game. And sometimes personal numbers take a hit.


Pettitte won games. Period.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

He reminds me of Troy Aikman. During his career he was never compared to Young or Cunningham. But you had to put him in the Hall. He was a great manager of the game. And sometimes personal numbers take a hit.


Pettitte won games. Period.

Aikman looks very average when you take away the Super Bowl victories. He's not close statistically to the top QBs of all time, he just had a great team around him. You have to view that in context. He did have one great Superb Owl performance out of four.

And the term "game manager" in football usually means a connotation of not doing anything spectacular but still wins because he's on a good team. Individually it does not stack up against the Marinos or Mannings.

If you take a lot at Pettitte's BB-Ref he's comparable to two pitchers: One being Mike Mussina, who I think had a better career, and the other is Jack Morris.

Morris was the winningest pitcher in the '80s but he is not top-tier. The argument of pitcher wins is no longer a strong argument to evaluate pitchers because it can be very misleading.

Basically, come up with a better argument.

 

[Kingfish]

He reminds me of Troy Aikman. During his career he was never compared to Young or Cunningham. But you had to put him in the Hall. He was a great manager of the game. And sometimes personal numbers take a hit.


Pettitte won games. Period.

This is 2011. You're looking for the 1970s.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

Comparing players across other sports is for the most part useless. There's only one time where such a comparison can be made

Nolan Ryan: played forever, all time leader in Ks and BBs. Indicative of his style because he was constantly throwing with not great control.

Brett Favre: played forever, all time leader in TDs and INTs. Indicative of his style because he was constantly throwing the ball whenever and wherever he pleased.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

He reminds me of Troy Aikman. During his career he was never compared to Young or Cunningham. But you had to put him in the Hall. He was a great manager of the game. And sometimes personal numbers take a hit.


Pettitte won games. Period.

And yet, throughout his entire career, he was never the best pitcher in his league any single season.

His post-season record is INCREDIBLY overrated. He won a lot of Game 2's, but he also lost a lot of Game 6's.

 

[Kingfish]

And yet, throughout his entire career, he was never the best pitcher in his league any single season.

Except for 1 or perhaps 2 seasons, he was never even the best pitcher on his own team.

 

[BlackLantern]

is this the Pettite going to the HOF discussion?

I think he'll go in eventually, but I am not sure if he really belongs there

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

is this the Pettite going to the HOF discussion?

I think he'll go in eventually, but I am not sure if he really belongs there

maybe. he gets in, but that's a big maybe. Pettitte would need a lot of players from the "steroid era" to get a low number of votes for him to have a chance in the first place. But still, look up his numbers compared to Mike Mussina, I don't see why Pettitte is so heralded, (actually I do)

AP: 489 starts in 16 years, 3,055.1 IP, 2,251 Ks, 962 BB, 3,88 ERA, 117 ERA+, 1.35 WHIP, 50.2 WAR (wins above replacement)

MM: 536 starts in 18 years, 3562.2 IP, 2,813 Ks, 785 BB, 3.68 ERA, 123 ERA+, 1.19 WHIP, 74.8 WAR (wins above replacement)

when Moose retired he wasn't highly regarded as Pettitte because Mussina played from 01-08 in pinstripes, which we all know the Yanks didn't win a WS, but lost two.

Pettitte having been with the organization for all the championships from '96 on makes him more decorated despite clearly being just inferior overall to his former teammate.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Except for 1 or perhaps 2 seasons, he was never even the best pitcher on his own team.

True dat.

is this the Pettite going to the HOF discussion?

I think he'll go in eventually, but I am not sure if he really belongs there

It's February, not much to talk about with baseball. Whenever a player retires, the question "Is he a HoFer?" immediately follows.

 

[Kingfish]

maybe. he gets in, but that's a big maybe. Pettitte would need a lot of players from the "steroid era" to get a low number of votes for him to have a chance in the first place. But still, look up his numbers compared to Mike Mussina, I don't see why Pettitte is so heralded, (actually I do)

AP: 489 starts in 16 years, 3,055.1 IP, 2,251 Ks, 962 BB, 3,88 ERA, 117 ERA+, 1.35 WHIP, 50.2 WAR (wins above replacement)

MM: 536 starts in 18 years, 3562.2 IP, 2,813 Ks, 785 BB, 3.68 ERA, 123 ERA+, 1.19 WHIP, 74.8 WAR (wins above replacement)

when Moose retired he wasn't highly regarded as Pettitte because Mussina played from 01-08 in pinstripes, which we all know the Yanks didn't win a WS, but lost two.

Pettitte having been with the organization for all the championships from '96 on makes him more decorated despite clearly being just inferior overall to his former teammate.

There simply isn't a single way that Mussina wasn't better than Pettitte. Same for Schilling. Same for Kevin Brown. Even Al Leiter is probably just as qualified.

 

[BlackLantern]

and Pettite admitting to using PEDs....he might be one of those guys that gets in on his last year of eligibility as pity **** from the voters

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

There simply isn't a single way that Mussina wasn't better than Pettitte. Same for Schilling. Same for Kevin Brown. Even Al Leiter is probably just as qualified.

I only bring him up because they were teammates for a while.

And Kevin Brown seems criminally underrated as a pitcher.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

and Pettite admitting to using PEDs....he might be one of those guys that gets in on his last year of eligibility as pity **** from the voters

The voters will treat pitchers different from hitters. We just don't know how much yet.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

and Pettite admitting to using PEDs....he might be one of those guys that gets in on his last year of eligibility as pity **** from the voters

He's not getting in for pity. As I said, he was an above-average to average pitcher who had the good fortune of playing one some of the best teams of the decade that made the post-season almost every year. Not once in his entire career was he ever the best pitcher in baseball, in his league, or on his own team for a single season.

 

[Kingfish]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=6097813

That "Harry Caray rising out of Hell" statue was vandalized. Again. God that thing is creepy.

 

[BlackLantern]

so....how many days to pitchers and catchers?

 

[Kingfish]

Six.

 

[BlackLantern]

nice....as a Mets fan, Im just going to crawl out on that ledge now

 

[Gamma Ray]

I'm always excited after the superbowl because it means that the best sport season is on the horizon.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

As a D-Backs fan, should I actually bother getting excited? Joe Saunders and Melvin Mora: CAN'T WAIT

 

[The Riddler]

As a D-Backs fan, should I actually bother getting excited? Joe Saunders and Melvin Mora: CAN'T WAIT

the starting rotation wasn't that bad. i remember enright, kennedy, and hudson had pretty strong ends to the season last year.

overall though, i don't see a higher than 3rd place finish (if that) for the dbacks next year.