Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - Part 13

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I really was hoping you got banned.

... Dude, almost everyone in this thread is being nastier and more rude than me. What's the issue here? :huh: I gave my opinion in a civil manner (and was pretty objective about the New 52 in particular), yet it's constant nastiness. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.
 
... Dude, almost everyone in this thread is being nastier and more rude than me. What's the issue here? :huh: I gave my opinion in a civil manner (and was pretty objective about the New 52 in particular), yet it's constant nastiness. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Well, that's what happens when introduce a controversial opinion, especially to a something as highly regarded as Grant Morrison's Batman run. Plus the term "realistic" around here really annoys us especially when nothing that happens in these stories could even remotely happen in the real world.

Also, maybe it would help your argument if you just told us some other Batman comics you like and have read, so we know that you're not just a "Nolan and BTAS fanboy".
 
In defence of Morrison...

I saw some people trashing Final Crisis, which of course is a common stance to take. I'm of the opinion that it's something of a flawed masterpiece, the kind of ambitious failure that I'll take over a modest success any day.

When compared alongside the vaccuous, event-by-numbers storytelling of Secret Invasion, the event Marvel was running at the same time, it's clear just how superior Final Crisis is in its storytelling. With so many events, the outcome is solicited months in advance, and the whole event just becomes a tiresome exercise in moving from point A to point B and launching the publishing directive de jour. Take Schism, where it took the whole mini-series before we got to the Wolverine/Cyclops fighting that was in all the advance marketing materials and so we knew what was coming. With Secret Incasion, much of the Dark Reign stuff was telegraphed well in advance and so the event itself was just a case of seeing how we'd get there. With Final Crisis, all the hype and marketing talk took us as far as issue #3, up to the skip month. From that point on, we were entering unknown territory. There was a genuine sense of not knowing how the hell the world could possibly be saved, and it's that kind of uncertainty that's like gold-dust in Big Two superhero books.

If Final Crisis has one major problem, it's that it doesn't quite stick the landing, with the closing chapters continuing to get bigger and bigger in scale at the point when focus should have been narrowed down to a more personal climactic moment. And such there is a kind of reader disconnect that ultimately makes this an aesthetically and structurally impressive but emotionally cold story. But still, a remarkable, underrated technical achievement that will be more deeply appreciated in future years with a greater degree of separation.

In defence of Snyder...

I think the assumption of "Anyone who likes Snyder's Batman is just a Nolan/BTAS fanboy" is imbecilic on multiple levels. First, it implies that liking two of the greatest depictions of Batman in any medium (I'll pretend we're in the strange, distant land of May 2012 where it isn't hideously unfashionable to praise Christopher Nolan) is somehow shameful and aomething a Batman fan shouldn't be doing. Second, it's a picture-perfect crystallisation of that Comic Book Guy elitism ("liking something remotely popular makes you lame and not a TRUE comic fan!") that gives us fanboys a bad name. Reductive arguments like that do no one any favours.

As for the idea that nobody who likes Scott Snyder's Batman is able to verbalise WHY they like it, and are therefore talking crap, I'll have a go. Morrison's Batman is also excellent, and I think will likely go down in history as the superior run of the two. But Snyder is telling different a different kind of story. While Morrison's is a run of dizzying key huge ideas and ambitious, labyrinthine plotting, Snyder's is more intensely psychological and character-driven. The whole run has essentially been a Batman character study, looking at the way his hubris continually comes back to haunt him. In many ways, he's the opposite of Morrison's Batgod, prepared for everything and nigh-superhuman in his ability to always be 10 steps ahead of everyone and have contingencies for his contingencies. And while that awesomeness is what often makes Morrison's run so thrilling, with Snyder it's Batman's flaws that make him compelling. The two runs are almost mirror images of each other. It's telling that Snyder's run has been at its least gripping when the arcs reach the "Batman makes the big comeback, beats the bad guys and saves the day" phase, as this character work where Snyder excels goes onto the back burner at these points.

With "Death of the Family" in particular, Snyder is excelling at creating this constant sense of turn-of-the-screw dread, and has successfully made The Joker a more frightening presence than he's been in some time. And while some are having fits over liberties taken with continuity, not enough credit is being given to all the nods to previous continuity, how the story draws on past Joker tales and is enrichened by them, I also think the event is bringing out the best in many of the creative teams participating in the crossover.
 
In defence of Morrison...

I saw some people trashing Final Crisis, which of course is a common stance to take. I'm of the opinion that it's something of a flawed masterpiece, the kind of ambitious failure that I'll take over a modest success any day.

When compared alongside the vaccuous, event-by-numbers storytelling of Secret Invasion, the event Marvel was running at the same time, it's clear just how superior Final Crisis is in its storytelling. With so many events, the outcome is solicited months in advance, and the whole event just becomes a tiresome exercise in moving from point A to point B and launching the publishing directive de jour. Take Schism, where it took the whole mini-series before we got to the Wolverine/Cyclops fighting that was in all the advance marketing materials and so we knew what was coming. With Secret Incasion, much of the Dark Reign stuff was telegraphed well in advance and so the event itself was just a case of seeing how we'd get there. With Final Crisis, all the hype and marketing talk took us as far as issue #3, up to the skip month. From that point on, we were entering unknown territory. There was a genuine sense of not knowing how the hell the world could possibly be saved, and it's that kind of uncertainty that's like gold-dust in Big Two superhero books.

If Final Crisis has one major problem, it's that it doesn't quite stick the landing, with the closing chapters continuing to get bigger and bigger in scale at the point when focus should have been narrowed down to a more personal climactic moment. And such there is a kind of reader disconnect that ultimately makes this an aesthetically and structurally impressive but emotionally cold story. But still, a remarkable, underrated technical achievement that will be more deeply appreciated in future years with a greater degree of separation.

In defence of Snyder...

I think the assumption of "Anyone who likes Snyder's Batman is just a Nolan/BTAS fanboy" is imbecilic on multiple levels. First, it implies that liking two of the greatest depictions of Batman in any medium (I'll pretend we're in the strange, distant land of May 2012 where it isn't hideously unfashionable to praise Christopher Nolan) is somehow shameful and aomething a Batman fan shouldn't be doing. Second, it's a picture-perfect crystallisation of that Comic Book Guy elitism ("liking something remotely popular makes you lame and not a TRUE comic fan!") that gives us fanboys a bad name. Reductive arguments like that do no one any favours.

As for the idea that nobody who likes Scott Snyder's Batman is able to verbalise WHY they like it, and are therefore talking crap, I'll have a go. Morrison's Batman is also excellent, and I think will likely go down in history as the superior run of the two. But Snyder is telling different a different kind of story. While Morrison's is a run of dizzying key huge ideas and ambitious, labyrinthine plotting, Snyder's is more intensely psychological and character-driven. The whole run has essentially been a Batman character study, looking at the way his hubris continually comes back to haunt him. In many ways, he's the opposite of Morrison's Batgod, prepared for everything and nigh-superhuman in his ability to always be 10 steps ahead of everyone and have contingencies for his contingencies. And while that awesomeness is what often makes Morrison's run so thrilling, with Snyder it's Batman's flaws that make him compelling. The two runs are almost mirror images of each other. It's telling that Snyder's run has been at its least gripping when the arcs reach the "Batman makes the big comeback, beats the bad guys and saves the day" phase, as this character work where Snyder excels goes onto the back burner at these points.

With "Death of the Family" in particular, Snyder is excelling at creating this constant sense of turn-of-the-screw dread, and has successfully made The Joker a more frightening presence than he's been in some time. And while some are having fits over liberties taken with continuity, not enough credit is being given to all the nods to previous continuity, how the story draws on past Joker tales and is enrichened by them, I also think the event is bringing out the best in many of the creative teams participating in the crossover.

Great post. :ybat:
 
I went back and picked up all the new 52 issues of Batman Inc based on everyone here's enthusiasm, and it is pretty great. It doesn't make me like Snyder's work any less, but I am really enjoying it.
 
Lmao, some of you people need help. We just reached a point in the road where the new "fact" is that anyone who is a fanboy of Nolan/TAS/Burton is not a true fan of Batman comics.

Please, continue. :hrt:

I want to know where I my opinion, which started off with "I think" was ever meant to be stated as a "fact". I also want to know where I EVER said Nolan/Burton/TAS fans weren't true Batman comic fans, as I am a fan of all three. BTW, for anyone else with comprehension problems "Nolan/Burton/BTAS fanboys who dont read much Batcomics"...is NOT the same thing as "All Nolan/Burton/BTAS fanboys", so stop the strawman argument.
 
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The last few pages remind me of why I feel Snyder is the most overrated Batwriter since Miller, and at least with Miller I can understand why his work is praised to high heaven. Especially Rocketman's laughably bad post. I honestly think most (not all) people who like Snyder's current batwork are Nolan/Burton/TAS fanboys who don't read much Batcomics.
And to think that my favorite incarnations of Batman are the Nolan, Burton, and TAS incarnations :oldrazz:. And dare I say that most people who like Snyder's current Batwork simply because it is well....actually good.
 
In defence of Morrison...

I saw some people trashing Final Crisis, which of course is a common stance to take. I'm of the opinion that it's something of a flawed masterpiece, the kind of ambitious failure that I'll take over a modest success any day.

When compared alongside the vaccuous, event-by-numbers storytelling of Secret Invasion, the event Marvel was running at the same time, it's clear just how superior Final Crisis is in its storytelling. With so many events, the outcome is solicited months in advance, and the whole event just becomes a tiresome exercise in moving from point A to point B and launching the publishing directive de jour. Take Schism, where it took the whole mini-series before we got to the Wolverine/Cyclops fighting that was in all the advance marketing materials and so we knew what was coming. With Secret Incasion, much of the Dark Reign stuff was telegraphed well in advance and so the event itself was just a case of seeing how we'd get there. With Final Crisis, all the hype and marketing talk took us as far as issue #3, up to the skip month. From that point on, we were entering unknown territory. There was a genuine sense of not knowing how the hell the world could possibly be saved, and it's that kind of uncertainty that's like gold-dust in Big Two superhero books.

If Final Crisis has one major problem, it's that it doesn't quite stick the landing, with the closing chapters continuing to get bigger and bigger in scale at the point when focus should have been narrowed down to a more personal climactic moment. And such there is a kind of reader disconnect that ultimately makes this an aesthetically and structurally impressive but emotionally cold story. But still, a remarkable, underrated technical achievement that will be more deeply appreciated in future years with a greater degree of separation.

In defence of Snyder...

I think the assumption of "Anyone who likes Snyder's Batman is just a Nolan/BTAS fanboy" is imbecilic on multiple levels. First, it implies that liking two of the greatest depictions of Batman in any medium (I'll pretend we're in the strange, distant land of May 2012 where it isn't hideously unfashionable to praise Christopher Nolan) is somehow shameful and aomething a Batman fan shouldn't be doing. Second, it's a picture-perfect crystallisation of that Comic Book Guy elitism ("liking something remotely popular makes you lame and not a TRUE comic fan!") that gives us fanboys a bad name. Reductive arguments like that do no one any favours.

As for the idea that nobody who likes Scott Snyder's Batman is able to verbalise WHY they like it, and are therefore talking crap, I'll have a go. Morrison's Batman is also excellent, and I think will likely go down in history as the superior run of the two. But Snyder is telling different a different kind of story. While Morrison's is a run of dizzying key huge ideas and ambitious, labyrinthine plotting, Snyder's is more intensely psychological and character-driven. The whole run has essentially been a Batman character study, looking at the way his hubris continually comes back to haunt him. In many ways, he's the opposite of Morrison's Batgod, prepared for everything and nigh-superhuman in his ability to always be 10 steps ahead of everyone and have contingencies for his contingencies. And while that awesomeness is what often makes Morrison's run so thrilling, with Snyder it's Batman's flaws that make him compelling. The two runs are almost mirror images of each other. It's telling that Snyder's run has been at its least gripping when the arcs reach the "Batman makes the big comeback, beats the bad guys and saves the day" phase, as this character work where Snyder excels goes onto the back burner at these points.

With "Death of the Family" in particular, Snyder is excelling at creating this constant sense of turn-of-the-screw dread, and has successfully made The Joker a more frightening presence than he's been in some time. And while some are having fits over liberties taken with continuity, not enough credit is being given to all the nods to previous continuity, how the story draws on past Joker tales and is enrichened by them, I also think the event is bringing out the best in many of the creative teams participating in the crossover.
awesome post. :up:
 
Person A: I think Rabbits that eat moldy carrots are gross
Person B: OMG! HE SAID ALL RABBITS R GROSS!!

Since some of you apparently can't read, let me elaborate further. I think that due to the new "Number 1" rebranding, there has been an influx of new Batman readers....readers who, while they enjoyed the current media incarnations never read much Batman comics for one reason or another. The brand new number one gives them incentive to read Batman comics for the first time or first time in a long time, and they do...and they think its the best thing since sliced bread. I remember reading Hush for the first time and thinking it was awesome...until I read more Batman stories....including Long Halloween, which was Hush.,...except much better and more original.

Obviously, longtime readers like Snyder's run and think its the best thing since sliced bread as well. I just think that a lot of the intensity of praise comes from people who don't read a lot of Batman comics.
 
Also, as god-smackingly overrated as I find Snyder's current run, I'm in the middle of Black Mirror and I think Snyder is better suited writing Dick Grayson than Bruce Wayne.
 
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If pretty much everyone takes how you said something to mean what you apparently didn't intend it to, perhaps the problem lies less with their reading comprehension than with your way with words.

When you say "I think people who like Snyder's run are just Nolan/BTAS fanboys who haven't read many Btman comics," I think the natural conclusion to take about what is meant by that sentence is that you're saying Nolan/BTAS fanboys haven't read many Batman comics. If, by that sentence, you actually meant to say, "I think people who like Snyder's run are just Nolan/BTAS fanboys who haven't read many Batman comics, but specifically those who haven't read many Batman comics, Nolan/BTAS fanboys who read lots of Batman comics have more discerning taste. And not just anyone who hasn't read many Batman comics, but specifically those who haven't read many Batman comics but also like the classic Animated Series and the Dark Knight Trilogy, as there's something about that exact combination that predisposes someone to liking the work of Scott Snyder," then maybe you should have said that. :yay:
 
For me, it isn't about his concepts or his characterizations that fall sort, nor his interpretation of the Batman mythos - honestly, I think Snyder actually does a pretty great job with all three - it's purely his execution that falls short.

To be more specific, the longer he's written Batman, the more and more he writes like an over-excited child who was somehow gifted the flagship Batman title.

I won't say his writing is devoid of artistic value, but his exuberance for attempting to tell some elusive "definitive" Batman story leaves his work resembling the comic book equivalent of a soap opera; with overly campy dialogue, questionable plotting and logistical decisions, and - worst of all - numerous occurrences of over the top and horribly manufactured attempts at being emotionally resonate and jarring.

It, in many ways, does begin to resemble mere parody purely due to its nature of taking pretty normal, rational, and entertaining concepts and story points and cranking them up to 11. It's as if he's almost trying to do a tongue-in-cheek critique of his own writing. Only we all know he isn't.
 
If pretty much everyone takes how you said something to mean what you apparently didn't intend it to, perhaps the problem lies less with their reading comprehension than with your way with words.

Nah, its definitely the reading comprehension that some of you seem to lack. Remember, at some point "pretty much everyone" thought that the earth was flat.

Now, had I said something like "I think people who like Snyder's run are just Nolan/Burton/BTAS fanboys (who haven't read many Btman comics)", you would have a point. But I didn't...so you don't.

Not to mention, common sense would tell you that that kind of statement isn't true. Many Nolan/Burton/BTAS fans are fans BECAUSE they read much of the comics, and Nolan/Burton/BTAS is a gateway to people becoming huge comic fans.

So next time, before jumping into hysterics or posting "wall of text" replies in an attempt to be the hero of the argument...actually READ what the "opposing" argument is saying. You all jumped to a bunch of stupid conclusions.
 
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Nah, its definitely the reading comprehension that some of you seem to lack. Remember, at some point "pretty much everyone" thought that the earth was flat.

Now, had I said something like "I think people who like Snyder's run are just Nolan/Burton/BTAS fanboys (who haven't read many Btman comics)", you would have a point. But I didn't...so you don't.

Not to mention, common sense would tell you that that kind of statement isn't true. Many Nolan/Burton/BTAS fans are fans BECAUSE they read much of the comics, and Nolan/Burton/BTAS is a gateway to people becoming huge comic fans.

So next time, before jumping into hysterics or posting "wall of text" replies in an attempt to be the hero of the argument...actually READ what the "opposing" argument is saying. You all jumped to a bunch of stupid conclusions.

So, in other words, you're going to go to a lot of effort to avoid saying "Oops, clumsily worded that sentence, my bad, what I meant was..."
 
Nope. Just trying to hide my annoyance at your inability to read things. :yay:
 
Actually giving you the benefit of the doubt there, rather than saying you're going to a lot of effort to avoid saying, "I made a crappy assumption that I no longer have the guts to stand by when I've seen how unpopular it is, so now I'm backtracking and saying I meant something else..."
 
I will say, I believe The Batman to be definitely wrong about this; it's not at all that Snyder writes Dick better than Bruce, or Bruce worse than Dick. What makes The Black Mirror so superior to his Batman run is that Snyder wasn't trying to write this massively definitive Batman epic.

He didn't have the pressure nor pomposity of writing the main Batman title. Thusly, his writing overall was much more relaxed, fluid, and much more in line with his pretty high quality work in American Vampire. If Snyder could actually just simmer down and purely attempt to write a Bruce Wayne Batman story that was simply good, that was simply meant to succeed as its own artistic venture, I'm quite confident he could turn in something as good, if not better than, The Black Mirror.
 
I will say, I believe The Batman to be definitely wrong about this; it's not at all that Snyder writes Dick better than Bruce, or Bruce worse than Dick. What makes The Black Mirror so superior to his Batman run is that Snyder wasn't trying to write this massively definitive Batman epic.

He didn't have the pressure nor pomposity of writing the main Batman title. Thusly, his writing overall was much more relaxed, fluid, and much more in line with his pretty high quality work in American Vampire. If Snyder could actually just simmer down and purely attempt to write a Bruce Wayne Batman story that was simply good, that was simply meant to succeed as its own artistic venture, I'm quite confident he could turn in something as good, if not better than, The Black Mirror.

That's an interesting point, reminds me of a quote from Breaking Bad writer Vince Gilligan: "perfect is the enemy of good." And it's an interesting counter to the "people just like to crap on whoever is the flagship Bat writer" argument, suggesting that the act of becoming a flagship writer could be what's having the adverse effect.

Me, personally, I don't agree with your issues with it, though. I think the earnestness and even the hysteria works in its favour. It's like what I said about Final Crisis: there's a genuine sense of danger and uncertainty, hard to capture in a superhero book. And I think much of that comes from how seriously the plight is taken in the execution. Ultimately, I think the Court of Owls is a less formidable threat than the Black Glove, but because they're set against a more fallible Batman, they manage to gain a comparable sense of menace. I think the story began to feel strain at the seams when we got out of Batman's head and the Court of Owls jumped into a harebrained "let's attack city officials!" scheme.
 
I will say, I believe The Batman to be definitely wrong about this; it's not at all that Snyder writes Dick better than Bruce, or Bruce worse than Dick. What makes The Black Mirror so superior to his Batman run is that Snyder wasn't trying to write this massively definitive Batman epic.

He didn't have the pressure nor pomposity of writing the main Batman title. Thusly, his writing overall was much more relaxed, fluid, and much more in line with his pretty high quality work in American Vampire. If Snyder could actually just simmer down and purely attempt to write a Bruce Wayne Batman story that was simply good, that was simply meant to succeed as its own artistic venture, I'm quite confident he could turn in something as good, if not better than, The Black Mirror.

...Now, THIS is where I say "My bad, what I meant was..."

I agree very much with the bolded, and that's why I said that he was better suited for Dick Grayson. Snyder, IMO, seems to have the same problem as Gail Simone: When writing secondary characters, they soar, but when they write an iconic character there's that pressure that you mentioned. While you can say Dick is an iconic character, these days he's only treated like one when he's Robin or the sole Batman running around. When Snyder wrote Dick, he was writing a Dick Grayson who shared the mantle of Batman with Bruce, and Detective Comics has long been the secondary Bat Title.

I think if Snyder took over Nightwing right now, it would not only kick the ass of his Batman run, it would give the Nightwing title its first good run in a long time.
 
Eh, I'd just say Snyder and Simone needed to stop being dumb and just write good comics. :o
 
Easier said then done. Both of them come off as somewhat neurotic, so when i think about it, its not at all surprising at how they react to being put on big name character titles...
 
I would characterize them both as more adolescent than neurotic, but I get what you mean.
 
The thing that made me initially like Snyder's Batman run was how straightforward it was. It was the same reason I enjoyed Dini's Batman stories at the same time they were running with Morrison. Morrison is good, but he has a penchant for churning out confusingly non-linear stories and stories that require reading the past 5 years of his run to fully understand. He does them well, but I have no problem admitting that I sometimes get lost and confused during a lot of his stories.

So Snyder was a bit of a refreshing breather from the frantic Morrison stories. I liked it at first, but it may have simply been just giving me what I wanted from a Batman story. A fresh jumping on point and (relatively) clean continuity. After the first 5 or 6 issues though, I started to see problems with Snyder's writing. Mostly the problems that others have pointed out—the weak dialogue, questionable plotting, and the blatant desire to write a definitive story, when the plot clearly isn't anything worthy of being called "definitive".
 
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