World Official Goblin Appreciation Thread - Part 1

[Hobgoblin]

Wasn't Venom an anti-hero at the time?

An anti-hero that hated Spider-Man.

 

[Godzilla2014]

An anti-hero that hated Spider-Man.

But still an anti-hero.

 

[Hobgoblin]

But still an anti-hero.

An anti-hero that wants you dead and knows your secret identity is still your arch enemy.

 

[Godzilla2014]

An anti-hero that wants you dead and knows your secret identity is still your arch enemy.

Good point. So I guess that Venom was Spider-Man's arch-enemy at that time after all.

 

[Vile]

I may be in the minority, but I love where Doc Ock is these days in terms of how menacing he is. He really whent from being one of SPidey's arch-enemies to one of the most dangwerous foes in the Marvel Universe today.

I agree with you, Spidey!

Both Norman and Octopus have recieved major bumps in the Super Villain ranks - I love that Octopus is no longer stuck in the 'Revenge Squad' catagory and is branching out.

As for Spidey's arch enemy...its a tough question. Personally, I believe that the Green Goblin will always be Spidey's arch baddie - regardless of BND or if he's currently out doing his own thing.

Let us not forget that Lex Luthor isnt always plotting against Superman every week - yet he is still Supe's arch enemy! Just because a villain doesnt show up every day and threaten our hero like he used to doesnt change his status.

The marvel universe is expanding, going 'big picture' - Characters like Red Skull and Norman will always be arching their respective heroes even if it doesnt happen every month.


That being said, let us Celebrate all things Goblin and see where these plotlines take our favorite characters!

 

[Godzilla2014]

I agree with you, Spidey!

Both Norman and Octopus have recieved major bumps in the Super Villain ranks - I love that Octopus is no longer stuck in the 'Revenge Squad' catagory and is branching out.

As for Spidey's arch enemy...its a tough question. Personally, I believe that the Green Goblin will always be Spidey's arch baddie - regardless of BND or if he's currently out doing his own thing.

Let us not forget that Lex Luthor isnt always plotting against Superman every week - yet he is still Supe's arch enemy! Just because a villain doesnt show up every day and threaten our hero like he used to doesnt change his status.

The marvel universe is expanding, going 'big picture' - Characters like Red Skull and Norman will always be arching their respective heroes even if it doesnt happen every month.


That being said, let us Celebrate all things Goblin and see where these plotlines take our favorite characters!

The thing is this: Norman Osborn cannot be Peter Parker's archenemy without the mutual knowledge of one another's secret identities. Their personal relationship is what gives their archrivalry depth and meaning. Without that, they are just a guy in a spider costume and another older guy dressed up as a goblin, respectively.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I agree with you, Spidey!

Both Norman and Octopus have recieved major bumps in the Super Villain ranks - I love that Octopus is no longer stuck in the 'Revenge Squad' catagory and is branching out.

As for Spidey's arch enemy...its a tough question. Personally, I believe that the Green Goblin will always be Spidey's arch baddie - regardless of BND or if he's currently out doing his own thing.

Let us not forget that Lex Luthor isnt always plotting against Superman every week - yet he is still Supe's arch enemy! Just because a villain doesnt show up every day and threaten our hero like he used to doesnt change his status.

The marvel universe is expanding, going 'big picture' - Characters like Red Skull and Norman will always be arching their respective heroes even if it doesnt happen every month.


That being said, let us Celebrate all things Goblin and see where these plotlines take our favorite characters!

This.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Anyone else hate the classic Green Goblin costume?

 

[Hobgoblin]

Nope. I love it. Its corny yes, but its just so damn iconic. I wish they would go back to it.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Nope. I love it. Its corny yes, but its just so damn iconic. I wish they would go back to it.

I guess I don't hate it, but it really doesn't look right on Spider-Man's arch-enemy. It looks too silly and not menacing enough, in my opinion.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I guess I don't hate it, but it really doesn't look right on Spider-Man's arch-enemy. It looks too silly and not menacing enough, in my opinion.

Depends on the artist. I have cover art to Spider-Man: The Osborn Journal. Try and say that picture of Gobby isnt intimidating. I would post it, but photobucket is being an ass.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Depends on the artist. I have cover art to Spider-Man: The Osborn Journal. Try and say that picture of Gobby isnt intimidating. I would post it, but photobucket is being an ass.

Good point. However, more often than not, it's not that threatening. Nowhere near as threatening as Venom is, for example.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Ok, I'm about to commit heresy.....I never cared much for McFarlane's Venom. Bagley's art was much better, I thought. Bagley gave him a beautiful kind of savagery. McFarlane's is just a big black mass.

Either way, I still like Goblin more than Venom. The glider, the pumpkin bombs, the Halloween theme. I love it. The fact that he is tormenting Spider-Man the way a cat toys with a mouse. Goblin has done more with the knowledge of Peter's ID than Venom ever has.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Ok, I'm about to commit heresy.....I never cared much for McFarlane's Venom. Bagley's art was much better, I thought. Bagley gave him a beautiful kind of savagery. McFarlane's is just a big black mass.

I was trying to find a good, tongueless picture of Venom. My basic point is that Venom looks far scarier than Green Goblin, though I wouldn't want to make an enemy of either of them.

[QUOTEHobgoblin;21473675]Either way, I still like Goblin more than Venom. The glider, the pumpkin bombs, the Halloween theme. I love it. The fact that he is tormenting Spider-Man the way a cat toys with a mouse. Goblin has done more with the knowledge of Peter's ID than Venom ever has.[/QUOTE]

I like both Venom and Green Goblin. Both have their own niches that I don't think the other could occupy as well. I don't think that Venom would work as well as a behind-the-scenes planner, and I don't think Green Goblin would work as well as an "attack from anywhere at anytime" bad guy.
I'd say that likening Venom's methods of tormenting Peter to a cat toying with a mouse is a more apt comparison. After all, cats don't tend to toy with mice by killing their family members.

If by "Green Goblin does more with his knowledge of Peter's ID", you mean actually attack and/or kill his family members and friends, that's true, but I think you're missing the point. Both have very different styles and modus operandi. Green Goblin thinks strategically is a more criminal mastermind with a grand, elaborate plan that will have long-term effects. Venom thinks tactically, tending to either go for the direct approach and attack Peter himself, or he'll make Peter squirm by dropping in on Peter and his family and friends when he leasts expects it. He eschews such plans as "make Peter kill his best friend to save his wife" because he sees no reason to involve them. Furthermore, I'd say that Venom does plenty with his knowledge of Spider-Man's ID. How many times has Venom dropped in on Peter (when he's out of costume) or his friends and family? That's doing something with the knowledge.

One thing I don't think Green Goblin can really say is that he can't provide as much of a physical challenge for Spider-Man as Venom does. In a fistfight without his toys, Green Goblin is at a severe disadvantage to Spider-Man. He lacks a spider-sense, wall-climbing abilities, or webbing (which is a very, very useful tool). In addition, I think Peter has a strength advantage, but I might be wrong about that. Venom has these abilities, and more. In a physical confrontation, with no preparation or assistance on Spider-Man's behalf, the deck is stacked in Venom's favor. Venom doesn't trigger Peter's spider-sense, so he can attack Peter without warning, and he doesn't need expose Peter to a gas to do it.

 

[Hobgoblin]

If by "Green Goblin does more with his knowledge of Peter's ID", you mean actually attack and/or kill his family members and friends, that's true, but I think you're missing the point. Both have very different styles and modus operandi. Green Goblin thinks strategically is a more criminal mastermind with a grand, elaborate plan that will have long-term effects.

Thats exactly why I prefer Goblin. He is a thinker, a plotter, a planner. I love how he twists other people around his little finger to do his dirty work.

Venom thinks tactically, tending to either go for the direct approach and attack Peter himself, or he'll make Peter squirm by dropping in on Peter and his family and friends when he least expects it. He eschews such plans as "make Peter kill his best friend to save his wife" because he sees no reason to involve them. Furthermore, I'd say that Venom does plenty with his knowledge of Spider-Man's ID. How many times has Venom dropped in on Peter (when he's out of costume) or his friends and family? That's doing something with the knowledge.

Not really. People (writers and Venom's fans) cant seem to make up their minds about whether Brock will hurt Peter's loved ones or not. Sure, he will drop by Aunt May or MJ to freak out Peter but he never actually hurt them. He has had ample time and power to do so. You say that he sees no reason to involve Peter's friends in their feud, so why does he drop by Aunt May's? That is getting her involved. He is no threat to her, because if he wanted to kill her, she would be dead by now. He threatens but never makes good.

Goblin does intend to kill Peter's loved ones and has tried to numerous times. He kidnapped May and nearly killed her in "Shush" and tried to kill MJ in that same story. And of course, there is Gwen, Ben Reilly and (possibly, who knows) baby May. Venom could kill Peter's friends but wont. Goblin wants to kill them, but Peter has (usually) managed to stop him. Goblin is competent, Venom is not.

One thing I don't think Green Goblin can really say is that he can't provide as much of a physical challenge for Spider-Man as Venom does. In a fistfight without his toys, Green Goblin is at a severe disadvantage to Spider-Man. He lacks a spider-sense, wall-climbing abilities, or webbing (which is a very, very useful tool). In addition, I think Peter has a strength advantage, but I might be wrong about that. Venom has these abilities, and more. In a physical confrontation, with no preparation or assistance on Spider-Man's behalf, the deck is stacked in Venom's favor. Venom doesn't trigger Peter's spider-sense, so he can attack Peter without warning, and he doesn't need expose Peter to a gas to do it.

Yes, Venom certainly has a power boost on Peter. Norman is a smidge weaker than Peter (as I understand it and Harry is a smidge stronger than Peter) and doesnt have a spider sense and cant evade Spidey's. But Norman has a brain boost on both of them. He doesnt need to have all that strength, because he is still strong enough to put a hurt on Peter and smart enough to keep him running in circles. What brains has Brock shown? He tricked Peter to a desert island once. Ok, what else? Nothing that I know of. He is a punch and kick kind of villain. Norman is a diabolical genius that, while not as strong as Spidey, is more than strong enough.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Thats exactly why I prefer Goblin. He is a thinker, a plotter, a planner. I love how he twists other people around his little finger to do his dirty work.

I like that as well. That said, not every villain needs to be, nor should be, an evil mastermind with elaborate conspiracies.

Not really. People (writers and Venom's fans) cant seem to make up their minds about whether Brock will hurt Peter's loved ones or not. Sure, he will drop by Aunt May or MJ to freak out Peter but he never actually hurt them. He has had ample time and power to do so. You say that he sees no reason to involve Peter's friends in their feud, so why does he drop by Aunt May's? That is getting her involved. He is no threat to her, because if he wanted to kill her, she would be dead by now. He threatens but never makes good.

This is true. Unfortunately, Venom hasn't had a lot of consistency over the years. Part of me thinks that while Eddie has no real interest in things like kidnapping Mary Jane to lure Peter into a big dramatic showdown, he still wants to keep Peter on edge by reminding him that he could if he wanted to, and he can't protect them. Perhaps he isn't threatening Peter's friends and family, he's using them to mock Peter himself. He's also somewhat unpredictable like that. You know he's going to attack Peter, but not when or where.

Goblin does intend to kill Peter's loved ones and has tried to numerous times. He kidnapped May and nearly killed her in "Shush" and tried to kill MJ in that same story. And of course, there is Gwen, Ben Reilly and (possibly, who knows) baby May. Venom could kill Peter's friends but wont. Goblin wants to kill them, but Peter has (usually) managed to stop him. Goblin is competent, Venom is not.

Venom is plenty competent. He knows what he's interested in. He doesn't believe that killing Peter's loved ones really gets him closer to his goal of killing Peter. Yes it makes Peter suffer, but the only kind of death that brings Peter closer to is suicide, and Venom wants the pleasure of killing Peter himself, so that he may feel his mortal enemy's blood on his hands and hear him beg for mercy as he tears his throat out.

Yes, Venom certainly has a power boost on Peter. Norman is a smidge weaker than Peter (as I understand it and Harry is a smidge stronger than Peter) and doesnt have a spider sense and cant evade Spidey's. But Norman has a brain boost on both of them. He doesnt need to have all that strength, because he is still strong enough to put a hurt on Peter and smart enough to keep him running in circles. What brains has Brock shown? He tricked Peter to a desert island once. Ok, what else? Nothing that I know of. He is a punch and kick kind of villain. Norman is a diabolical genius that, while not as strong as Spidey, is more than strong enough.

I know that Norman Osborn is smarter than both Peter and Venom, but keep in mind that in an ambush (which Venom is perfectly equipped for), physical power is a very big factor in who wins and who loses. Norman can get around this, but Venom doesn't have to. I have a hard time imagining Norman Osborn ever actually killing Peter himself, but with Venom, it's a possibility every time he appears.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I like that as well. That said, not every villain needs to be, nor should be, an evil mastermind with elaborate conspiracies.

Nope, just the really good ones.

This is true. Unfortunately, Venom hasn't had a lot of consistency over the years. Part of me thinks that while Eddie has no real interest in things like kidnapping Mary Jane to lure Peter into a big dramatic showdown, he still wants to keep Peter on edge by reminding him that he could if he wanted to, and he can't protect them. Perhaps he isn't threatening Peter's friends and family, he's using them to mock Peter himself. He's also somewhat unpredictable like that. You know he's going to attack Peter, but not when or where.

Yes, he could do it but he wont do it. I think that takes a lot of Peter's fear away. Peter knows that Brock is all talk. He doesnt nearly fear Venom as much as he used to. Remember when he chased Venom away with a burning newspaper? If he'd try that with Osborn, he'd be dead.

Venom is plenty competent. He knows what he's interested in. He doesn't believe that killing Peter's loved ones really gets him closer to his goal of killing Peter. Yes it makes Peter suffer, but the only kind of death that brings Peter closer to is suicide, and Venom wants the pleasure of killing Peter himself, so that he may feel his mortal enemy's blood on his hands and hear him beg for mercy as he tears his throat out.

Again, Brock is full of crap. He talks a good game but never makes good. He threatens to kill Peter's friends but Osborn does it. Brock kidnapped Peter's "parents" and then swore to protect them from him. Osborn got his enemy's first love pregnant, then killed her in front of him. Which is more evil?

I know that Norman Osborn is smarter than both Peter and Venom, but keep in mind that in an ambush (which Venom is perfectly equipped for), physical power is a very big factor in who wins and who loses. Norman can get around this, but Venom doesn't have to. I have a hard time imagining Norman Osborn ever actually killing Peter himself, but with Venom, it's a possibility every time he appears.

Once again, if Brock could kill Spidey in an ambush (and he should have by now.) he would. Seriously, what is his problem? He is stronger, faster, more resilient and can block the spidersense. Yet he always fails to kill Peter. He has every advantage...and still fails. Sometimes, there is just no excuse but incompetence.

Look at it this way. Who killed Ben Reilly, who was as close to being Spider-Man as anyone could be? Venom? No, Ben cleaned his clock. Osborn killed him...with a trick that wasnt even new.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Nope, just the really good ones.

To me, the best villains are generally the ones are the most menacing that can create a lot of tension and suspense, which both Venom and Green Goblin do, in my opinion.

Yes, he could do it but he wont do it. I think that takes a lot of Peter's fear away. Peter knows that Brock is all talk. He doesnt nearly fear Venom as much as he used to. Remember when he chased Venom away with a burning newspaper? If he'd try that with Osborn, he'd be dead.

I'll admit that Venom has been subject to bad writing, and that initial sheer terror was lost in the shuffle between badass super-villain and anti-hero. Peter should have been killed for trying to chase Venom away with a burning newspaper. Venom has taken a 66mm rocket from an M72 LAW (which is an anti-tank weapon) without being killed. He would never fear a burning newspaper, he would take it and proceed to set Peter on fire with it.

Again, Brock is full of crap. He talks a good game but never makes good. He threatens to kill Peter's friends but Osborn does it. Brock kidnapped Peter's "parents" and then swore to protect them from him. Osborn got his enemy's first love pregnant, then killed her in front of him. Which is more evil?

Bad writing. That was during his ******** "Lethal Protector" phase. As for which is more evil, I'd say that you forget that at the time that Norman knocked Gwen up, he had no idea he was the Green Goblin or that Peter was Spider-Man. Also, that was a ******** retcon.

Once again, if Brock could kill Spidey in an ambush (and he should have by now.) he would. Seriously, what is his problem? He is stronger, faster, more resilient and can block the spidersense. Yet he always fails to kill Peter. He has every advantage...and still fails. Sometimes, there is just no excuse but incompetence.

Doesn't Peter often get help, like sonic guns and such? Also, sometimes, Peter gets his ass kicked and just manages to escape with his life. Furthermore, Norman is much easier to defeat. Peter couldn't beat Venom without some form of assistance. Peter never seems to be worried about how he will defeat Norman. And let's not forget that, though both Green Goblin and Venom lose the war the vast majority of the time, they both can win battles. I'd say that while it is true that Spider-Man getting away doesn't really accomplish Venom's goals, it's far from defeat. Otherwise, every villain in Spider-Man's rogues' gallery is a colossal faliure.

For all the suffering Norman has caused Peter, is he any closer to actually killing him? No, he's not. He always talks about how he'll make Peter wish to die (the whole point of causing said suffering in the first place) but he will never actually get around to it.
In a way, Norman is just as much a faliure as Venom is. He rigidly adheres to this idea that he can eventually make Peter give into despair, he just needs to make him suffer a little bit more. Oh wait, he's still enjoying his life? Maybe a bit more. Not working? Try again. It'll happen someday, I swear!

Look at it this way. Who killed Ben Reilly, who was as close to being Spider-Man as anyone could be? Venom? No, Ben cleaned his clock. Osborn killed him...with a trick that wasnt even new.

Ben cleaned Venom's clock once, with a lot of luck. Then in a rematch, Venom properly kicked Ben's ass. Ben Reilly needlessly sacrificed himself by jumping in front of the glider to stop it from hitting Peter, who would have dodged it anyway, for the purpose of showing his body turn into dust to prove he was a clone. So that was also bad writing as well. Furthermore, it was a trick that the last time he used it, he missed and killed himself with it. Say what you will about Venom's lack of success, but at least he never killed himself trying to kill Spider-Man. There's some real incompetence for you.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I'll admit that Venom has been subject to bad writing, and that initial sheer terror was lost in the shuffle between badass super-villain and anti-hero. Peter should have been killed for trying to chase Venom away with a burning newspaper. Venom has taken a 66mm rocket from an M72 LAW (which is an anti-tank weapon) without being killed. He would never fear a burning newspaper, he would take it and proceed to set Peter on fire with it.

Personally, I think Venom has been over powered to the point of absurdity. Both Venom and Carnage, in fact. Venom got hit by a train and survived. Carnage got ripped in half, left in outer space...and is still alive. Baloney.

Bad writing. That was during his ******** "Lethal Protector" phase. As for which is more evil, I'd say that you forget that at the time that Norman knocked Gwen up, he had no idea he was the Green Goblin or that Peter was Spider-Man. Also, that was a ******** retcon.

BS or not, it happened. Brock is still obsessed with protecting the innocent, isnt he? He's doing that right now in Spider-Island by removing citizens spider powers. And Norman would have knocked Gwen up twice if he had remembered her as Spidey's gf. Venom would have kidnapped her to protect her from Peter. Norman is crazy but smart. Brock is crazy and...crazy.

Doesn't Peter often get help, like sonic guns and such? Also, sometimes, Peter gets his ass kicked and just manages to escape with his life. Furthermore, Norman is much easier to defeat. Peter couldn't beat Venom without some form of assistance. Peter never seems to be worried about how he will defeat Norman. And let's not forget that, though both Green Goblin and Venom lose the war the vast majority of the time, they both can win battles. I'd say that while it is true that Spider-Man getting away doesn't really accomplish Venom's goals, it's far from defeat. Otherwise, every villain in Spider-Man's rogues' gallery is a colossal failure.

Peter doesnt get help from others against Gobby. Norman would kill everyone Peter knew if he did that. See, he knows how to use leverage. Venom just gets beaten up. The Human Torch has teamed with Spidey a few times against Venom and they've beaten him. Torch and Spidey took on Osborn in his second outing as the Goblin, and Norman nearly beat both of them.

For all the suffering Norman has caused Peter, is he any closer to actually killing him? No, he's not. He always talks about how he'll make Peter wish to die (the whole point of causing said suffering in the first place) but he will never actually get around to it.
In a way, Norman is just as much a failure as Venom is. He rigidly adheres to this idea that he can eventually make Peter give into despair, he just needs to make him suffer a little bit more. Oh wait, he's still enjoying his life? Maybe a bit more. Not working? Try again. It'll happen someday, I swear!

Hey, I never said Norman was sane, ok? I dont remember Norman ever saying he wanted Peter to want to die, unless you are counting the movie. He firmly wants the pleasure of killing Peter himself.

Let's count Goblin's victories:
1. Having Peter run away in ASM 17.
2. Killing Gwen.
3. Killing Ben.
4. Kidnapping baby May.
5. Exposing cracks in Peter's demeanor in ASM 25, vol 2.

Venom's Victories:
1. Yes, he also made Spidey run.
2. He tricked him onto a desert island (and Peter escaped by tricking him. I dont remember Peter ever tricking Osborn.)
3. Brock tried to kill Aunt May, who was dying of a gunshot...and he still couldnt do it. If Osborn had been there, she would have been a red stain on the wall.

Sure, some of these are symbolic victories...but what has Venom done to Spidey. Punch him a lot? Meh.

Ben cleaned Venom's clock once, with a lot of luck. Then in a rematch, Venom properly kicked Ben's ass. Ben Reilly needlessly sacrificed himself by jumping in front of the glider to stop it from hitting Peter, who would have dodged it anyway, for the purpose of showing his body turn into dust to prove he was a clone. So that was also bad writing as well. Furthermore, it was a trick that the last time he used it, he missed and killed himself with it. Say what you will about Venom's lack of success, but at least he never killed himself trying to kill Spider-Man. There's some real incompetence for you.

The fact remains that Green Goblin is a spider killer. Venom is not.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Personally, I think Venom has been over powered to the point of absurdity. Both Venom and Carnage, in fact. Venom got hit by a train and survived. Carnage got ripped in half, left in outer space...and is still alive. Baloney.

Carnage is far worse than Venom I ever was, in my opinion. Venom III (Gargan) somehow manages to succeed in both being overpowered and a chump simultaneously.
My point remains that it was BS and therefore, not admissible.

BS or not, it happened. Brock is still obsessed with protecting the innocent, isnt he? He's doing that right now in Spider-Island by removing citizens spider powers. And Norman would have knocked Gwen up twice if he had remembered her as Spidey's gf. Venom would have kidnapped her to protect her from Peter. Norman is crazy but smart. Brock is crazy and...crazy.

It's an outlier, inconsistent with the other data. After all, why wouldn't he have kidnapped Mary Jane a long time ago to protect her? As far as I'm concerned, anything that Brock did as an anti-hero or out of concern for "innocents" is questionable in terms of admissibility.

Peter doesnt get help from others against Gobby. Norman would kill everyone Peter knew if he did that. See, he knows how to use leverage. Venom just gets beaten up. The Human Torch has teamed with Spidey a few times against Venom and they've beaten him. Torch and Spidey took on Osborn in his second outing as the Goblin, and Norman nearly beat both of them.

That's because that's Venom's fatal flaw. Norman's is his immense ego and his bipolar manic depression. They're villains, meant to provide the hero with a challenge to overcome.
Peter Parker doesn't seek help against Green Goblin because he generally doesn't need it against him. And Osborn wouldn't kill everyone Peter knows, because then the game is over because Peter would have nothing left to lose. He might expose himself (not what I meant, pervert) and Osborn as Spider-Man and Green Goblin. Furthermore, wasn't Spidey about 17 at the time he and Human Torch teamed up against Osborn? I think he's wised up to more of his tricks in the ensuing 13 years (Marvel time).

Hey, I never said Norman was sane, ok? I dont remember Norman ever saying he wanted Peter to want to die, unless you are counting the movie. He firmly wants the pleasure of killing Peter himself.

Let's count Goblin's victories:
1. Having Peter run away in ASM 17.
2. Killing Gwen.
3. Killing Ben.
4. Kidnapping baby May.
5. Exposing cracks in Peter's demeanor in ASM 25, vol 2.

Venom's Victories:
1. Yes, he also made Spidey run.
2. He tricked him onto a desert island (and Peter escaped by tricking him. I dont remember Peter ever tricking Osborn.)
3. Brock tried to kill Aunt May, who was dying of a gunshot...and he still couldnt do it. If Osborn had been there, she would have been a red stain on the wall.

Sure, some of these are symbolic victories...but what has Venom done to Spidey. Punch him a lot? Meh.

His purposes for tormenting Peter vary between incarnations, writers, et cetera. Sometimes, it's to make Peter wish for death so that Norman may grant his wish. Other times, Norman's whole reason for causing Peter to suffer is to make him give in to his despair and lose his sense of responsibility. Point is that has yet to happen. Norman has failed to accomplish that purpose, so these "victories" are as hollow as Venom beating the living **** out of Spider-Man many times.

And also, while he hasn't tricked Osborn before, he has stopped him entirely in his tracks in A Death In The Family. That was the beginning of a major downward spiral for Norman Osborn which he never recovered from.

The fact remains that Green Goblin is a spider killer. Venom is not.

And the "Spider" in question only had to jump in front of the glider and intentionally get hit for it to happen. It wasn't even the intended target. Hell, that should count as a big faliure for the lost opportunities for future torment.
Venom never killed Ben because he wasn't the Spider-Man who he felt wronged him. Also, it was the 90s. He was busy handling other **** like his own children (I bet Norman Osborn can relate to that, huh?), doing work for the CIA, traveling over the internet, et cetera. See why it's best to ignore what Venom did or didn't do during that period?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Anyone else hate the classic Green Goblin costume?

I love it.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Anyone else think that The Spectacular Spider-Man kind of underused [BLACKOUT]Norman Osborn[/BLACKOUT] as Green Goblin? I mean, even if the show hadn't been cancelled, [BLACKOUT]he still faked his death at the end, and he hadn't even learned Peter's secret identity yet[/BLACKOUT].

 

[Hobgoblin]

Carnage is far worse than Venom I ever was, in my opinion. Venom III (Gargan) somehow manages to succeed in both being overpowered and a chump simultaneously.
My point remains that it was BS and therefore, not admissible.




It's an outlier, inconsistent with the other data. After all, why wouldn't he have kidnapped Mary Jane a long time ago to protect her? As far as I'm concerned, anything that Brock did as an anti-hero or out of concern for "innocents" is questionable in terms of admissibility.

Everything is admissible. You cant just discard evidence that refutes your theory. You need all of the evidence to come to a full understanding.

That's because that's Venom's fatal flaw. Norman's is his immense ego and his bipolar manic depression. They're villains, meant to provide the hero with a challenge to overcome.
Peter Parker doesn't seek help against Green Goblin because he generally doesn't need it against him. And Osborn wouldn't kill everyone Peter knows, because then the game is over because Peter would have nothing left to lose. He might expose himself (not what I meant, pervert) and Osborn as Spider-Man and Green Goblin. Furthermore, wasn't Spidey about 17 at the time he and Human Torch teamed up against Osborn? I think he's wised up to more of his tricks in the ensuing 13 years (Marvel time).

And yet Norman has tried again and again to kill Peter's loved ones. Again, you're picking and choosing which information to look at. I think Spidey would disagree that he doesnt need help against Goblin.

His purposes for tormenting Peter vary between incarnations, writers, et cetera. Sometimes, it's to make Peter wish for death so that Norman may grant his wish. Other times, Norman's whole reason for causing Peter to suffer is to make him give in to his despair and lose his sense of responsibility. Point is that has yet to happen. Norman has failed to accomplish that purpose, so these "victories" are as hollow as Venom beating the living **** out of Spider-Man many times.

I still disagree. Look at how Peter still pines over Gwen. It hurt him to his core. The loss of his loved ones has hurt Peter more than any bruises and broken bones that Venom ever gave him. If you want to really hurt someone, you hurt their mind, not their body. Goblin understands that. Venom doesnt.

And also, while he hasn't tricked Osborn before, he has stopped him entirely in his tracks in A Death In The Family. That was the beginning of a major downward spiral for Norman Osborn which he never recovered from.

He recovered just fine. He still makes Peter jump through hoops, despite Peter saying he cant stop Norman from trying to kill his friends. Again, Aunt May being kidnapped and buried alive and MJ at the Queensboro bridge.

And the "Spider" in question only had to jump in front of the glider and intentionally get hit for it to happen. It wasn't even the intended target. Hell, that should count as a big failure for the lost opportunities for future torment.
Venom never killed Ben because he wasn't the Spider-Man who he felt wronged him. Also, it was the 90s. He was busy handling other **** like his own children (I bet Norman Osborn can relate to that, huh?), doing work for the CIA, traveling over the internet, et cetera. See why it's best to ignore what Venom did or didn't do during that period?

Like I said, emotional and psychological pain is worse than physical pain. Norman killed Peter's "brother." If he had let Ben live, he and Peter could say "Yeah, we got hurt but we survived to fight another day." Nope, Ben's dead and that really hurts Peter. Its another victory for Norman. Maybe he does miss out on a few opportunities to torment Ben further...or he can just go for the coup de grace and kill him. He still has Peter to torment.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Anyone else think that The Spectacular Spider-Man kind of underused [BLACKOUT]Norman Osborn[/BLACKOUT] as Green Goblin? I mean, even if the show hadn't been cancelled, [BLACKOUT]he still faked his death at the end, and he hadn't even learned Peter's secret identity yet[/BLACKOUT].

Tbh, I thought he was perfectly handled. Final Curtain is still my favorite episode.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Everything is admissible. You cant just discard evidence that refutes your theory. You need all of the evidence to come to a full understanding.

If Venom is shown enduring walking through a burning building in one instance, and then being warded off by an ordinary lighter, then both cannot be accurate because they contradict each other.

And yet Norman has tried again and again to kill Peter's loved ones. Again, you're picking and choosing which information to look at. I think Spidey would disagree that he doesnt need help against Goblin.

I didn't say that Norman wouldn't kill Peter's loved ones, but he wouldn't kill them all. Then what would Peter have to lose by exposing their identities? Nothing. Peter knows this, Norman knows this.

I still disagree. Look at how Peter still pines over Gwen. It hurt him to his core. The loss of his loved ones has hurt Peter more than any bruises and broken bones that Venom ever gave him. If you want to really hurt someone, you hurt their mind, not their body. Goblin understands that. Venom doesnt.

Green Goblin has hurt Peter, yes, but their entire purpose is to break him. That has failed. Green Goblin wins battles, but always loses the war.
Venom's intent is different. He seeks to break Peter psychologically through paranoia rather than despair. He can look like anyone, strike without warning from anywhere.

He recovered just fine. He still makes Peter jump through hoops, despite Peter saying he cant stop Norman from trying to kill his friends. Again, Aunt May being kidnapped and buried alive and MJ at the Queensboro bridge.

I didn't say that Peter doesn't worry about his loved ones' safety, but he's a lot less concerned about it.

Like I said, emotional and psychological pain is worse than physical pain. Norman killed Peter's "brother." If he had let Ben live, he and Peter could say "Yeah, we got hurt but we survived to fight another day." Nope, Ben's dead and that really hurts Peter. Its another victory for Norman. Maybe he does miss out on a few opportunities to torment Ben further...or he can just go for the coup de grace and kill him. He still has Peter to torment.

However, it wasn't Norman's plan. It's like Cpt. Arthur Stacy's death. It's not really a success of a plan, just something that randomly happened to go in their favor. He wasn't planning on killing Ben Reilly, it just happened on accident. It's not like Gwen's death. Furthermore, if he really wanted to kill Peter, then he could have just used his spider-sense neutralizing gas and impaled him with the glider years ago. Or bombed him in his sleep.