Animation Official Wolverine And The X-men, "Hindsight 1-3" Discussion Thread

[Telekinetic]

Me too !! would really appreciate it !

 

[stillanerd]

My review of episode 3 copied and pasted from the "Wolverine and the X-Men" thread:

Well, caught this episode and it looks like the premise for the show is now fully in place:

Spoiler

The addition of Emma Frost really emphasizes that not only is this not the traditional X-Men, but also gives an added sense of intrigue as you know that Emma's motives are not as pure as she lets on. And the voice acting for her character was terrific, as she sounded exactly like I imagined her in the comics--an educated, sexy, but very snobbish, british schoolmarm who feels totally in control of any situation, even if she really isn't. And at the same time, there is a sincereity in her voice when she talks about teaching so she isn't completely manipulative. And the scene with Cyclops using his love for Jean and the promise he could find her as a means of keeping her around was terrific, especially knowing she plays with his effections, not to mention has a relationship with him, in the comics. The only weird thing was that Logan seemed to know more about her than the other X-Men. If she was running a rival school like Xavier's, then why wouldn't folks like Beast or Cyclops also know about her?

Likewise, Magneto and the voice acting for him was equally terrific. Obviously, the series was more inspired by Ian McKellain's take on the character in the movies, but hey, it's a good reference point to draw from. Also, it was an inspired touch that his entire fortress on Genosha is capable of being manipulated by him because of it's metal structure and incorporated it into his battle with the X-Men (although, as cool as it was when he used the metal slabs to block Cyclops's eye beams, wouldn't have Cyclops been able to punch through that? And after all, Magnero can generate an electomagnetic field around himself that shields him from that sort of attack.)

Speaking of Scott, it's still weird seeing him taking a back seat to Wolverine's leadership. Although, it might have been touched on when the X-Men got the telepathic message from Xavier in the future, there still needed to be an emphasis that this was a guy who once lead the X-Men and that being second bananna really has to get to him. Course the only reason he's sticking around is because of the hope they'll find Jean, but still.

Also, it's always a treat to see a "Days of Future Past" scenario play out in X-Men. What was interesting about this one, though, was that, unlike other apocalyptic futures involving the X-Men, Xavier is still alive in the future while all the other X-Men are dead. That's certainly an interesting angle. Also, anyone notice that Rogue's name was also among the graves? Ahh, so even though she joined the Brotherhood and framed the X-Men, she still regarded as part of the family.

There were a couple of things that weren't all that great, such as Bobby and Kitty playing the typical bickering teenage couple, and Forge acting like the stereotypical tech-savvy geek you see far too often in action movies, but there also were a couple of nice touches, such as the erea around Bobby frosting up whenever he went into "Iceman" mode, and the reactions Warren, Bobby, and even Cyclops had when they saw Emma. She knows exactly what's on their mind, indeed. t:

So, all and all, this series is shaping up to be a pretty good, respectful, and hopefully very unconventional adaptation of the X-Men.

 

[YoungE808]

Wow parts 2 and 3 were excellent. At first I thought that Spectacular Spiderman had this new series easily but I'm not too sure anymore.

One of my favorite scenes had to be when

Spoiler

When Kitty phased through the guy and stole his gun.

IMO it was just cool to watch as it was unexpected as well.

 

[Phoenix_Flare]

good epi. Magento tottally owned the x-men, man he should've been like this in the films...Emma is great, but I wonder is she working for the Hellfire club???

 

[Charlie No-One]

I don't think the series will last more than a season. It is too cool and mature. It is being marketed to the wrong age group.

 

[TheVileOne]

Well that's a good point, but I don't think it is much more mature than the DCAU shows. I think it's tone and content is very similar.

There isn't any significant blood, violence, or gore. There are some darker, edgier moments.

I mean I hope we do get to see a second season and the show's a big hit just because there aren't enough quality comic book super hero ongoing shows anymore.

But if this is it, it will probably be one of the greatest seasons of animation ever.

 

[Charlie No-One]

Yeah, it is fantastic. If they air it on Nicktoons though, no one will see it.

 

[JP]

I will!

Just watched Ep. 3. Still good.

 

[Charlie No-One]

I will see it too thank the lord. I love it so much.

 

[TheVileOne]

Well I do have Nicktoons, and I will be watching it.

If you guys don't have Nicktoons, you should ask your cable provider to give it to you and expand .

 

[Dread]

Thanks to CaptainCanada once more, I caught the third episode of WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, which completes the initial "HINDSIGHT" 3 part premiere. It irons out the theme of the series and, more importantly, finishes most of the footage seen in teasers and trailers, so that subsequent episodes may be less predictable (although things like Polaris possibly filling in for Magneto, a showdown with The Hulk, and Mojo are all on the horizon). The "team" is assembled as it were for this episode and we get more of a sense of what the final cast may look like.

As always, reviews are full of spoilers.

Spoiler

After the obligatory recap, Warren and Logan tour the rapidly-being-rebuilt X-Mansion. While I have done a lot of complaining about Colossus once again being shafted, I do have to say I have been surprised that Warren of all people has become a supporting character over the last two episodes, when I didn't expect to see him beyond HINDSIGHT PART 2. He's bankrolling construction of the Mansion, relying on the school's secrecy to avoid having his father cut his trust fund. Considering he has been a founding X-Man, you could claim Warren has also gotten shafted on a few X-shows, only appearing for random guest spots. At least here he has established a presence in the back-ground very quickly. The writers for X-MEN EVOLUTION, who by and large are working on WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, once did an interview for a Toonzone site where they claimed that while they didn't outright mention it on the show, they imagined that Warren gave the school money behind the scenes and helped fund some of the mansion's perennial rebuilds. Therefore, having such a relationship become more obvious on the writing team's second X-Men show isn't a surprise, but it is welcome. While I don't expect Warren to be donning his costume anytime soon, continuing to pop up every now and then will be good for him. He is one of the founders after all, even if he probably has the most "boring" power out of the original five.

Warren and Logan are developing a bit of a working relationship, although I still get the feeling the two are hardly friends, which is fine; not everyone should be friends with Wolverine, and that creates some tension. They are the first to meet Emma Frost, who appears to want to join the revived team. I especially liked Warren's "Hey, I'm pretty and rich" look when he introduced himself.

Now may be the best time to discuss Emma a bit. She is a character who has been involved with the X-Men before and believe it or not, has been animated twice (in the 1989 PRYDE OF THE X-MEN pilot and during the Dark Phoenix saga of the iconic 90's X-MEN series' 3rd season). However, despite years of involvement with the GENERATION X team (she even was in that terrible live action TV movie of the same name), Emma Frost was still likely considered a rogue type character for many "semi-casual" fans until Grant Morrison made her a core member of the X-Men team and, more specifically, Cyclops' lover in his "New" X-Men run. In fact, that depiction of Frost as an X-Woman who may not be entirely noble, but hardly evil either, is one of the few things that Marvel has allowed to remain of his run (nearly every innovation or plotline was erased or undone). In about 5-6 years she has become very important to the X-Mythos, serving as co-headmistress alongside Scott. Of course, the character still has problems. Some writers still can't balance her "grey" nature well and just write her as a one-note psychic b****. Scott has also become more of a jerk and a *****ebag while dating her, including throwing students he trained for years on the street the moment they lost their powers, training others to kill on a whim, and in a moment of "Superdickery", making out with Frost on his murdered wife's grave (made especially cold considering he cheated on Jean with Frost shortly before her murder). Jean may have made Scott a deadbeat father (he immediately abandoned Maddie Pryor and son Nathan the moment Jean came back so they could have adventures in X-FACTOR for months), but Frost's made him a borderline villain, from how some people see it. My opinion? Frost is loads more interesting than Jean ever was, who to me never quite shook her status as "token woman" on the original team and often struggles to have a personality besides Phoenix stuff. I don't like some of the things Cyclops has done or become since dating Frost, and he still comes across as a guy who is easily influenced by psychic girlfriends. But, Frost is an important character and when written well, the two make for some interesting scenes. At least when Cyclops isn't channeling his inner jerk.

Kari Wahlgren voices Ms. Frost here and does a bang-up job. She naturally gives Frost a bit of an arrogant, prim-and-proper British accent, but at times when the script requires, can have genuine emotion. The show takes some nods to Ultimate by depicting her not as a former member of the villainous Hellfire Club, but a rival mutant school-founder to Xavier whose students weren't always too "friendly". Of course, this could also be an allusion to the Hellions from the regular comics. While Logan quickly catches on that Frost is using her psychic talents and Xavier's disappearance as bargaining chips to gain access to Cerebro, Frost reveals that she genuinely misses teaching students, and that the MPD has taken them. Her design was VERY good, quite attractive, and inspired by Cassaday's good ASTONISHING X-MEN design.

Wolverine has the most experience involving Frost and doesn't trust her very much (he also has written off Rogue, deeming her an enemy until she "makes a move"); some may have wondered why other X-Men like Beast, Warren, and Scott don't seem to have has much intimate knowledge on Frost as Logan, when, even in the movie-verse, at least two of them joined the team before Logan. The answer, bluntly, is because this is Logan's show and by definition, he has to know most of the required data. The main character and leader always has more knowledge of things. To be fair to the show's writers, Beast comes off as someone who at least is aware of Frost, but doesn't harbor as much distrust of her as Logan does, at least considering the situation.

By this stage, Beast (Fred Tatasciore) could be said to be a "second in command" and co-leader of the team with Logan and that role suits him fine, and is in keeping with his character. He is intelligent and level headed; the Donatello to Wolverine's Raph. Logan is more of an emotional thinker and Beast offers a more logical point of view. Still, he usually always goes with what Logan decided to do in the end, which most advisers do I suppose. When Frost determines that Xavier is currently on Genosha with Magneto, Logan immediately believes that Magneto was involved in the explosion a year ago and is cruising for a fight, while Beast is more skeptical and not as eager to outright confront Magneto head on. While I do understand Wolverine being aggressive and all that, frankly by now he has had to have battled Magneto enough to know that his metal bones are ALWAYS a liability and, if anything, make him the weakest X-Man to pit against Magneto (besides Colossus, who is "in Russia with his family" has he has been in every X-Men cartoon since 1989). At the very least, it is mentioned that Jean Grey is not with Xavier, and Wolverine to his credit seems more interested in saving Charles than getting it on with Scott's girlfriend.

Another new character introduced is Forge, played by Roger Craig Smith. The impression is that Forge has been around for a little while, helping to rebuild things. His ability to "be able to create or fix any machine via instinct" isn't mentioned and he, frankly, comes off as a generic mechanic with a cyborg leg to the less informed. I never really cared for Forge as a character and always saw him as a convenient dues ex machina to explain why the X-Men had such outlandish gadgets or could repair them in record time without access to whatever aliens they mooched them off of (like the Shi'ar). True, Scotty on STAR TREK served the same role and was a character unto himself, but he wasn't one of the core three or so. For me, Forge is hardly a deal breaker or anything, but I have nothing against him. Smith plays him well enough, although, again, right now he's just the X-Handyman. To some long-term fans, though, Forge has been involved with the X-Men for over twenty years and it may be good for them to see him in a regular supporting role. While he seems a bit young to be dating Storm in this series (who, surprisingly, still hasn't shown up since saying her one word line in the pilot), I did like the Native American thing he had to his boots in his costume design; a subtle hint to his heritage.

If anything, Forge at least gives a personal example of Logan's impulsive, changes-on-a-whim executive decisions, as he was pulled on and off various projects in mid-repair. It comes off more as griping than someone, anyone, daring to tell the almighty Wolverine that he is wrong (apparently only Rogue can do that), but it was a noted scene. Logan orders him to repair the Blackbird post-haste for the showdown with Magneto.

Cyclops (Nolan North) is still living the life of a bum at a run down hotel and hasn't even bothered to remove his TV from the wall from last episode. Things like shaving or combing his hair have also appeared to escape him. Logan shows up and this time their interaction has different results for two reasons. Firstly, Logan is wearing his cool leather jacket this time, and secondly (and more seriously) Logan tells him that Xavier has been found, and they are off to find him. This causes Cyclops to rejoin the X-Men, shave, and wear his Astonishing X-Men costume complete with a trenchcoat stolen from the Neo collection.

I know I am skipping around for people expecting a linear "summary" of the episode, but I may as well comment more on Cyclops' depiction, since it was also a hot topic from me during the production lead up to the show. While I came to appreciate the idea of a possible Scott who is the rebel to Logan's leadership as a new take that would either be bold or backfire, I also had concern for how Scott would be written outside of the role where he is best. It is like casting, say, Iceman as not the comic relief, but a leadership position. He's never been in that role. It would be a challenge for even a good writer to pull it off. And while some people crave imagination more than actual story quality, I tend to prefer the latter overall (the ideal is both, of course). Right now, Cyclops is just "there". He has very few lines and just shoots the optic blasts. He never questions Logan's authority even when Logan leads them into an obvious Magneto trap, or makes impulsive decisions. He never even raises as much fuss as Forge did. He just stands there with a frown on his face and blasts something when it comes in front of him, whether it is a Magneto projectile or a random door. If anything, I would imagine his situation would make him MORE combative. Scott isn't a rebel here. He's sullen Optic Blast Man. While, sure, it could be worse (he could be written out completely, as he was in X-MEN 3 and to a large degree, X-MEN 2), he isn't terribly interesting right now. He comes off as, to use my Brooklyn slang, "an emo b****". He has a scene with Frost, but it just concerns him wanting to find Jean, which is perfectly fine. Without lines, without dynamic ENERGY, Cyclops just comes off as background, which is a dilemma for him as a leader or as a random X-Man. Frost puts him down, and he doesn't even flinch. Future Xavier all but begs Scott to stay when he's halfway out the door, and the impression is THAT is the only reason why he bothers. Because Future Xavier BEGGED him to. Scott simply acts or reacts to what Jean and Xavier want and without them is, basically, a listless bum. That isn't appealing and it isn't interesting.

Some could say that Cyclops has come off that way in the comics, and they'd be right. But that doesn't mean that it's the best way to write him. Scott had a life beyond Xavier or Jean in X-MEN EVOLUTION and it was an amazing depiction that, ironically, helped get me to appreciate the comic version more. Before that, it was all Wolverine, Colossus, and Nightcrawler for the X-Men for me. Some writers have written Scott as having some sort of ambition or desire besides what the psychics in his life basically order him to do, and that usually has been good. While of course we're only on episode 3 of a 26 episode show; FANTASTIC FOUR: WORLD'S GREATEST HEROES was hardly in it's prime by episode 3 (nor was EVOLUTION or many shows), but I am just stating my current take on things now. That's what review posts are for, right?

Shadowcat (Danielle Judovits) and Iceman (Yuri Lowenthal) in some ways act as the youthful gateway characters to the team. Iceman is naturally always eager for superhero action, while Kitty is too, but is more level-headed and mature about some things. Iceman sees a fight with Magneto as a fun adventure, but Kitty voices concerns such as his power level and island full of devoted subjects. I am getting used to Kitty's pigtails in her uniform, but still feel that Steven E. Gordon gave her a better design in EVOLUTION. Iceman, on the other hand, is pretty interesting. He ices up in his sleep, and during the fight against Magneto, arguably fared the best against the Master of Magnetism, slicing his helmet off and knocking the guy on his cape (practically). Usually the "funny guy" screws up the most, but he didn't at least this episode and that was cool. Iceman's best animated appearance for me is still as co-star of SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS from 1982-1985, but this time he at least has a supporting role on an X-Men show, and much like Angel, he also is "about due" for that as well. Just a shame the ol' Metal Russkie had to be traded in the process. Yuri Lowenthal's voicing him well, no complaints.

Anyway, the X-Men fly to Genosha and Beast & Forge have to basically repair the jet in mid-flight to activate things like stealth or even to keep it aloft, which provided some comic relief. They land in Genosha and breach Magneto's citadel well enough, only to wind up in a giant metal maze, and, basically, at Magneto's mercy. The music really was spectacular during this bit and the animation where Wolverine is pulled through some "liquified" metal walls into Magneto's personal chamber was very creative; I can't recalled seeing it before, which is always a worthy feat. The fight against Magneto here was, frankly, better than a few of the fights against him in EVOLUTION (little is lower than Magneto forced to defend himself with two metal poles fighting Mystique at the end of Season One on that show), which is good. He is voiced by Tom Kane, who is anything could be considered a Marvel cartoon veteran. Not only has he had roles in the X-MEN LEGENDS and MARVEL ULTIMATE ALLIANCE games, and just got off a good turn as both Iron Man and Ultron in NEXT AVENGERS, but co-starred as HOMER in the second (and good) season of IRON MAN and had roles in FANTASTIC FOUR and INCREDIBLE HULK during the 90's too (even if he may be best known for POWERPUFF GIRLS). I could probably guess that the director probably asked Kane to imitate Ian McKellen's voice from the films at least slightly, but he does really well as Magneto, and I'm glad he's getting more work here.

Magneto smugly is able to overpower the combined X-Men (even with Emma Frost's telepathy at play), but as the X-Men are just there to see Xavier, he eventually lets them go and allows them to take him back with them. Much like in the 90's cartoon, Magneto does not come off as a villain here but more of an anti-hero, having different goals than the X-Men but at heart baring them no ill will and willing to have them join his crew at Genosha. His design is also very good; I might argue his best yet in animation (and I frankly loved his EVOLUTION armor design, mind you). I loved the way his cape flowed.

Once back at the Mansion, Frost reveals that Xavier is comatose and there is no telling when he will come out of it. He had washed up on Genosha's shore "6 months ago" and has been in a coma ever since. Immediately after getting Xavier back at the Mansion, a psychic vision of Xavier appears, apparently from 20 years in the future. Future Xavier warns the X-Men of the danger of their default alternate future; one where everyone is dead and Sentinels rule the world (every future is bleak for the X-Men), i.e. Days of Future Past. As a twist, apparently in the year 2028, Xavier is the last surviving X-Man and apparently has some cybernetic legs to run with (perhaps made by Forge?). He warns them that the X-Men HAVE to reform and that Wolverine has to lead them. This miffs Cyclops of course, but as mentioned above, Future Charles asks him to stay, so he does. While Scott doesn't offer a shred of experience to the situation, they could never replace his red energy blasts. With that, Wolverine and the team strike a melodramatic pose and declare the reformation of the X-Men. I got the sense of the scene, but it was still amusing in that "over the top" way.

While I am not a big fan of Time Travel plots with the X-Men, as they usually serve as complicated distractions, past X-shows have done it, and actually, some of the time travel stories from the original 90's series were good (although by Seasons 4-5, overdone). It is part of the mythos and not even Ultimate could avoid it forever, so here we go. I suppose it would have been more realistic and interesting if the X-Men could have decided to stick around and understand the danger of allowing the current situation with the MRD to fester to a conclusion without needing Future Trunks, er, Xavier to literally spoon-feed them a "HEY, STUPIDS, THE WORLD NEEDS THE X-MEN OR EVERYONE DIES!" order, but, that's the road not taken.

The series is set up and naturally it basically is what the teasers hinted it would be. The tone is dark and mature and while the fights are neutered for network TV, they're still interesting enough to hold my attention. For Wolverine fans, thus fulfills all their expectations, and Steven Jay Blum of course is a natural to play the character. For fans of other X-Men, or the X-Men as a whole including Wolverine, there are other characters besides Wolverine that are interesting here; Beast, Iceman, Angel, and now Emma Frost have come off pretty well (ESPECIALLY Beast, who often gets the best lines). Cyclops is, frankly, just "there" right now, but hopefully that improves in some episode where Nolan North is given more than 4 lines. The major downer is that apparently only women (Rogue, Frost) have the stones to dare challenge Logan's leadership decisions or character flaws, and some more internal conflict could have been interesting. But, Beast is too gentle to offer any, and Scott is too much of a sullen wuss. "Everyone mindlessly obey Wolverine because he's so cool" isn't exactly a deal breaker, but there was a bit more potential here.

I suppose I will give the same end judgment that I once gave for FULLMETAL ALCHEMIST over at the Anime forum; W&TXM is a good show with flaws, which is better than a bad or mediocre show that has "moments". Sometimes these flaws can appear glaring because the rest is done well enough that you know the writers clearly know better. For fans of X-Men shows or comic book cartoons in general, so far this is worth hunting the Internet, or sitting tight until 2009, to scope. I'd hardly call it the best Marvel cartoon of all time right now (it's not hit the ground running anywhere near as well as SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN did), but it's better than a slew of shows on TV, and is worth a try.

 

[TheVileOne]

Responses to Dread:

Spoiler

Angel was in costume in the second episode.

It wasn't really a Magneto trap. If anything it was a provoked attack on the X-men. Magneto was really just defending himself since Wolverine brought the team in guns blazing, since Wolverine believed Magneto blew up the mansion taking Xavier.

I think this episode was important because it establishes that Wolverine isn't a perfect leader. Which I find far more interesting. To me it was so amazing that Wolverine gets the team in this mess, and Wolverine almost forces his claws into his comrades. And Wolverine has to adopt some humility toward Magneto and beseech him to stop. That was a great moment.

Cyclops is still a broken man. I don't think right now is the time we'll see him questioning Wolverine and sniping at him, at least at first. Cyclops attitude seems almost uncaring at first. And again, based on the comics it works. So eventually, hopefully Cyclops will get his piss back.

And I mean good or bad, Cyclops acting this way is not really unfaithful to the comics.

Emma Frost's presence in this show I think definitely turns this show up to 11. She has a much more ambiguous and perhaps ominous presence than she currently does in the comics. It looks like far later into the series she could go either way. My prediction is ultimately she will fall for Scott and that might affect on what side she falls on near the end.

I think for those that have seen the three episodes that this is a very ambitious super hero series, that we've needed ever since JLU ended.

Fans can harp on this show all they want. But time and time again people complain about the networks just relying too much on anime, and no more original American animation yadda yadda yadda. This is the show you've been begging for. So if you don't watch this, the state of animation you believe is problematic is yoru fault.

Here we have a really fine, series with a great complex storyline, a great setup, and it gives us an interpretation of the X-men that is more faithful to the X-men comics than Evolution.

This is the X-men show we've been waiting years to see. It will far surpass the last X-men movie in terms of quality, storytelling, and use of characters. And quite possibly, the Wolverine movie as well.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Ep 3 was good but I think one of the problems I have so far is that the animation seems so stiff. Everyone looks so awkward when they talk and move. It just doesnt seem that fluid.

And JL(U) ofcourse had to go through Warner which was their problem whereas this series goes directly through Marvel themselves which isnt afraid to test the boundries a little bit. Whereas with JL they always had to get rights to this charecter, that charecter, couldnt show this charecter because they didnt want two different types running around in two different shows.

 

[Nathan]

I like the cartoon, but I have to agree. Sometimes, something about the animation seems off. But it's not too obvious to ruin my enjoyment of the show.

 

[usagicassidy]

Dread, you said "It is like casting, say, Iceman as not the comic relief, but a leadership position. He's never been in that role. It would be a challenge for even a good writer to pull it off."

To which I had to just very quickly point out that in 1997, when Storm, Wolverine, Jean, Cyke, and Cannonball were captured, and Rogue, Bishop, Beast, Joseph, and Gambit were transported to space, and Angel and Psylocke were recovering, Iceman alone held the "X-Men" title in trying to destroy Bastion and his sentinals in "Operation: Zero Tolerance." What's more, he did it with a team of Marrow and Dr. Ceceila Reyes, two non-X-Men who were both very hot-headed women. He was not the wise-cracking jokester sidekick, and he showed in the face of it all, he is just as much "leader material" as Scott or Ororo, and it is my favorite interpretation of him to date, and the reason why he's my favorite male X-man.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah Iceman actually matured quite a bit in the late 90's early 00's.

He became a bit more man-child-ish during the Chuck Austen years though.

 

[Dread]

Responses to Dread:

Spoiler

Angel was in costume in the second episode.

It wasn't really a Magneto trap. If anything it was a provoked attack on the X-men. Magneto was really just defending himself since Wolverine brought the team in guns blazing, since Wolverine believed Magneto blew up the mansion taking Xavier.

I think this episode was important because it establishes that Wolverine isn't a perfect leader. Which I find far more interesting. To me it was so amazing that Wolverine gets the team in this mess, and Wolverine almost forces his claws into his comrades. And Wolverine has to adopt some humility toward Magneto and beseech him to stop. That was a great moment.

Cyclops is still a broken man. I don't think right now is the time we'll see him questioning Wolverine and sniping at him, at least at first. Cyclops attitude seems almost uncaring at first. And again, based on the comics it works. So eventually, hopefully Cyclops will get his piss back.

And I mean good or bad, Cyclops acting this way is not really unfaithful to the comics.

Emma Frost's presence in this show I think definitely turns this show up to 11. She has a much more ambiguous and perhaps ominous presence than she currently does in the comics. It looks like far later into the series she could go either way. My prediction is ultimately she will fall for Scott and that might affect on what side she falls on near the end.

I think for those that have seen the three episodes that this is a very ambitious super hero series, that we've needed ever since JLU ended.

Fans can harp on this show all they want. But time and time again people complain about the networks just relying too much on anime, and no more original American animation yadda yadda yadda. This is the show you've been begging for. So if you don't watch this, the state of animation you believe is problematic is yoru fault.

Here we have a really fine, series with a great complex storyline, a great setup, and it gives us an interpretation of the X-men that is more faithful to the X-men comics than Evolution.

This is the X-men show we've been waiting years to see. It will far surpass the last X-men movie in terms of quality, storytelling, and use of characters. And quite possibly, the Wolverine movie as well.

Quite frankly, surpassing X-MEN 3 in terms of writing quality isn't really that much of an accomplishment. That's like vowing to make a better movie than GIGLI. Even if you do, have you really accomplished much. But, yeah, I do expect it to be better than X-MEN 3 and possibly more balanced. Maybe.

For the record, I never said that W&TXM was bad, or that it wasn't faithful to the comics. I tried to spot allusions and whatnot and I am aware that it is trying to be closer to the comics than X-MEN EVOLUTION was. I know that a lot of the alterations on that show were because Kid's WB wanted as many teenagers as possible, and the producers & writers ran with it. I'm all for quality attempts at cartoons and I've stated many times that the tone of the show is dark and mature.

The downside to trying to be accurate to the comics is that you inherit the flaws. The 90's X-Men series was a classic, but did develop some of the flaws of the comics at the time, such as too much energy focused on time travel and aliens rather than the themes of the X-Men. It was a great show but also a product of it's time, much as EVOLUTION was and to a degree, W&TXM is. There are ways to be accurate to the comics while acknowledging what is a flaw and only altering that part of it, but not all writers catch that because they are being too subjective. It's understandable. If you love your aunt Bertha, you may not notice that she eats like a pig and ask her to stop. Just like if you love, say, the Phoenix Saga, you likely won't understand that space stories usually just distract the X-Men and are better left to the Fantastic Four.

I know that Angel was in costume last episode. I was just stating how I didn't expect him to be a fighting member of the team after that episode, BUT I was impressed that he thus far has become a regular (or semi-regular) background force. I spent a lot of time in the pre-production with concerns about Wolverine, Cyclops, and Colossus, so in seeing some other characters get some spotlight, it proves to be a pleasant surprise. As I stated in my review, Iceman is "due" to be a key part of a show and he's a blast here. I was surprised, pleasantly, he fared the best against Magneto during their fight sequence.

I also acknowledge that Wolverine is not a perfect leader and noted a few times about how he is an emotional thinker and impulsive, and how Beast as an "advisor" tries to smooth that out. Still, everyone goes along with what Logan says. If Logan wants to storm into a town meeting hall or raid Genosha, then everyone goes along with it in the end. The Magneto stuff was good and I never said it wasn't.

I stand by my comments about Cyclops. He hasn't been written out, and he's not a chipper, "yes, sir" to Wolverine and that's good. But he's just sort of there. He's shiftless and has no motivation for himself, and my ultimate fear is he just comes across as someone who needs a psychic to prop him up, and he won't develop a backbone until Emma Frost decides she finds him attractive. Which, frankly, would be a bit simplistic. I never said the comics never write Scott this way, but I did say that it wasn't ideal. There have been simplistic runs and takes on the X-Men for Cyke in the comics, after all. If any character had to become more stiff and less impulsive to make room for types like Wolverine and Gambit, it was Cyclops. Before Grant Morrison, he was written out of the X-Men for years at a time and no one missed him. That isn't an accident.

When I was a kid in the 90's watching the X-MEN, I never cared for Cyclops. He was just sort of "there" on that show much of the time, giving a static order or being Jean's boyfriend. When I got older of course and learned to appreciate other X-Men besides Wolverine (when I hit 18-19 or so) I saw more of Scott's bits on that show. What helped me like him in the normal comics was X-MEN EVOLUTION's take on him, mixed with Mark Millar's ULTIMATE X-MEN depiction. There, Scott was, gasp, a bad-ass who didn't just sit back and let Logan be Mr. Cool without any competition. He was awkward in social situations but more comfortable with the X-Men, and stood up for himself when it counted. I liked that. I thought it fit his vibrant power. So I reread a lot of the past material and reprints, and so on.

I guess I expected Cyclops to be MORE combative because of his turmoil. I almost imagined a reverse of a typical X-Men scene, where Wolverine gives an order and Scott, unable to handle it, storms off as the "lone wolf". To me that'd be VERY interesting. But right now, Scott's just in the background with a frown on his face, blasting anything in his path and not really motivated to get off the couch unless someone dangles Jean or Xavier in his face. It isn't very deep. He comes off as a teacher's pet who is throwing a fit because his teacher's gone, and it isn't my ideal depiction of Scott.

That all said, of course, I am aware that it is only Episode 3. And it beats being written out of two movies, by and large, via either brainwashing or psychic vaporizing.

I still say it is far too soon to compare this with JLU, especially considering the fight scenes are hardly trend setting thus far. SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN got off better in that regard. But, yeah, WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN is a darker show and is off to a strong start. As I said, it is a good show with flaws, which is superior to an average show that has moments (i.e., THE BATMAN).

Ep 3 was good but I think one of the problems I have so far is that the animation seems so stiff. Everyone looks so awkward when they talk and move. It just doesnt seem that fluid.

There are some animation issues but they seem on par with most TV animation budgets and I didn't find them too glaring that I didn't enjoy the show or something. It's still better than a lot of shows a decade or less ago were. It just is annoying to see certain annoying elements from the comics duplicated. A broken Cyclops can be interesting, but not if he isn't really saying anything interesting.

It sounds weird, but in the comics I always thought it was cool when Scott was dating Colleen Wing, from the Daughters of the Dragon. She wasn't a manipulative psychic, just a katanna carrying fatale, which helped remind readers that Scott actually knew judo behind the optic blasts. It didn't last very long of course, but I thought it was nice for a switch. Same was for EVOLUTION, Scott was fine until he was by obligation attached to Jean and things went to type. It is like how most fans know Gambit and Rogue as a couple, but the longer they spent together, the harder it was for either to be distinct as individuals, even now. I'd say Rogue has probably fared better; granted, she pre-dated Gambit by a few years.

Dread, you said "It is like casting, say, Iceman as not the comic relief, but a leadership position. He's never been in that role. It would be a challenge for even a good writer to pull it off."

To which I had to just very quickly point out that in 1997, when Storm, Wolverine, Jean, Cyke, and Cannonball were captured, and Rogue, Bishop, Beast, Joseph, and Gambit were transported to space, and Angel and Psylocke were recovering, Iceman alone held the "X-Men" title in trying to destroy Bastion and his sentinals in "Operation: Zero Tolerance." What's more, he did it with a team of Marrow and Dr. Ceceila Reyes, two non-X-Men who were both very hot-headed women. He was not the wise-cracking jokester sidekick, and he showed in the face of it all, he is just as much "leader material" as Scott or Ororo, and it is my favorite interpretation of him to date, and the reason why he's my favorite male X-man.

I do recall that. But by that I meant, writing someone against type is not always the easiest thing. That is NOT the same as saying it can't be done or shouldn't be attempted. But that it requires more effort and therefore more chance for failure.

I do actually like Iceman, but I feel that he's too much like Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Four, someone who is kept foppish simply by tradition, and it stinks. Both have been at their best when writers, ironically, abandoned that and tried to play on their experiences and have them step up.

Yeah Iceman actually matured quite a bit in the late 90's early 00's.

He became a bit more man-child-ish during the Chuck Austen years though.

Everything got suckier during the Chuck Austen years.

 

[TheVileOne]

Dread,

What I would say to that is the show does an excellent job of expressing the themes of the X-men comics in the first two episodes.

That's what really drives the story. The MRD imprisoning humans and mutants. Tensions are reaching a boiling point clearly.

Yes, we don't like X-men 3, and it's not hard to top. But the movie was still a significant success. Gigli didn't make over like half a billion dollars.

 

[Dread]

Dread,

What I would say to that is the show does an excellent job of expressing the themes of the X-men comics in the first two episodes.

That's what really drives the story. The MRD imprisoning humans and mutants. Tensions are reaching a boiling point clearly.

Yes, we don't like X-men 3, and it's not hard to top. But the movie was still a significant success. Gigli didn't make over like half a billion dollars.

Oh, I agree with that sentiment. The show is doing a good job of maintaining the themes of the X-Men with the MRD (or "marties"). Unlike Evolution, they've hit that ground running on that theme, like the first show did. Which was why I understood the "Days of Future Past" thing. That part has been very strong. Hence why I'm not a fan of Mojo showing up later, or Shi'ar. The stuff with the MRD, the REAL issues of the X-Men, are more important to me. But, if the writers don't go overboard with the sci-fi stuff, it can still work.

 

[usagicassidy]

Yeah Mojo and Shi'ar and anything else is a bit too much. Ick. And when Cable and Bishop start showing up from other timelines, I'm gonna be maaaad.

 

[Superhero 101]

Can someone please send me a link to ep 3

 

[TheVileOne]

All we really know from the trailer is that Mojo and Spiral will be in there.

 

[ChaoticPsylocke]

and me too!

 

[Ratcrawler]

I think X-Men Evolution's finest attributes was that it grounded the X-Men in a very plausible, relatable universe. This made it much easier for me to get into because I never really watched the old cartoon or read comics back then. But I saw the movie and enjoyed the premise. The first season had it's problems but it set everything up very nicely.

This show kind of does the opposite. It thrusts it's viewers into a world they're at least semi-familiar with (largely thanks to Evo and the movies) and dives right into time travel and sentinels and whatnot. Incidentally, I thought Evo's sentinel was better in every way. EsPecially the way it was set up. Anyway, this gung-ho approach takes advantage of the X-Men's standing in popular culture and take our understanding of the characters to a whole 'nother level. One we had in the early 90s that sort of sPread itself too thin between alot of sci-fi themes that made the show's univers a bit too unrelatable. For me, anyway.

Leave out the flying sPace whales, and it should do alright.

 

[Blade X]

My thoughts on WATXM.

1. Like many others have already said, making Wolverine the leader was a stupid idea and was only made because Wolverine is the most popular member. Making Wolverine the leader has actualy made him LESS interesting.

2. Cyclops has both been crapped on and made cool at the same time. On one hand, the writers and/or producers are saying he is not "kewl" or popular enough to be the leader of the X-Men. On the other hand, him not being the leader has actualy allowed the writers to show how cool Cyclops really is.

3. Despite Wolverine being the star/main focus of this series, it is the other X-Men who are the most interesting and appealing characters in this show.

4. I HATE that they have made some heroic characters bad in this series (like Madrox and Domino).

5. I HATE that they made Arclight a man for no good reason.

6. While the animation and story in the first episode was only "OK", the animation and story has continued to improve and getting better with each episode.

7. Over all I think this series is pretty damn good, despite the flaws and unnecessary changes.