iloveclones said:
This discussion is so ridiculous I can't even believe it's going on.
Are we really saying people aren't "fans" because they're not fanatics?
Now I just have to laugh about this. Please do yourself a favor and read that again. You might see the same absurdity that I see in the question. Duhh, of course we're saying people aren't fans because they're not fanatics
t:
t: that's the point. It's like asking, "are you saying people aren't basketball players because they don't play basketball? People aren't tall because they're short? people aren't black because they're white? "etc. That's just too funny. There are plenty of people who
like something, who may even follow it to a certain extent, they may even like it very much, but aren't "fans". The word fan is specific and like every other word has a meaning. So no, people who aren't fanatics aren't fans.
I mean, c'mon, I love the face painters and screamers at games, they up the entertainment level and all, but I hope to God that I'm not ever one of them. Because it's just lame. I've got way better things to do with my time and life. Doesn't make me any less of a Steelers/Penguins/Pirates fan.
of course that doesn't make you less of a fan. that's not what we're talking about. to be a fan doesn't mean you are a clown or you have to act like one. There are all kinds of "fans". Some are very quiet fans, and some are very loud. What makes a him a fan is what's in his heart. the degree to which he loves, supports, follows, etc. a subject.
I like football, I used to be a Bills fan
(when they went to the SB 4 times in a row) but I've since moved to another area and the bills suck. guess what? I'm no longer a Bills fan I (
if I ever was). I follow footballs, there are a lot of teams I like and root for, but I'm not yet a "fan" of any of those teams. There is a difference. Heck, I love Superman, but I'm not a Superman "fan".
There also seems to be this move to quantify Spidey's powers to justify/shoot down a plot point. Give me a break. Spidey went toe-to-toe with Firelord once. Firelord. Cosmic Power vs a strong guy who can jump around a lot. If this was the "real world" (an invocation that I hate that people around here seem to love), and these "powers" existed, that fight would have lasted long enough for Firelord to flash-fry our favorite hero. Now, that was one of the most memorable Spidey fights, and I always include it in lists of best spidey battles. And I'm more than willing to overlook an obvious mismatch in order to give me such an entertaining story. Is Spidey versus these two losers a mismatch? Of course it is. Is Spidey versus these two losers a mismatch after Spidey has gone at it with Iron Man and been shot through a window? Maybe it still is, but it's not quite as clear now. Throw in the fact that there may have been more fighting and villains off-panel (which I think is perfectly appropriate for a mini like this which is only supposed to be the jumping off point to other titles, I mean, why do you think they do these things?), than it's perfectly plausible. Throw in the NFL axiom, "on any given sunday", and hey, someone like the Jester could get the drop on a beat-up, distracted Spidey.
this is yet again a perfect example of the misconception of who and what Spider-man is. Look, Spider-man is no light weight. he has never been. He was never supposed to be. Very early on, Stan Lee established that SM could hold his own against people like the Thing, the Submariner, Rhino, and a host of other really powerfull people.
As for the fight against Firelord, again this is a case of a "fan" looking at things to the detrement of the character rather than to his advantage.
Firelord IS stronger and
much more powerfull than SM. But he is NOT stronger than the foes that SM has faced in the past. He only lifts 50 tons. As for his cosmic power, it is only powerful if it hits its target. Guess what? SM has ALWAYS had the speed and agility to avoid shots taken at him
yes even from the likes of Firelord.
Besides,
and this is VERY important, THAT story was handled VERY well, because it did not show SM treating FL as an equal. It did not have SM going toe to toe with FL, exchanging blow for blow. It did not have SM absorbing FL's blast as if they couldn hurt him. It did not treat Sm like he was Thor.
What it did was understand that there was a HUGE descrepency between their power lever, and it
respected that. TIt understood that FL
is much more powerful than SM. Therefore SM had to deal with this mismatch in order to win. how? by utilizing SM's abilities to their fullest.
*They first had SM acknowledge Firelord was much more powerful than he.
*Then they made it clear that SM could not handle a hit from FL by having him running and avoiding getting hit by any means necessary
(which given his speed and experience is perfectly reasonable),
*Then they had SM use other things besides his own power to soften up FL (like an exploding gas station and a falling building),
*Then they had SM take him down with a barrage of punches rather than a single punch.
which given SM's strength is also reasonable
That is perfectly fine story telling. A great way to demonstrate SM's abilities, resourcefullness, courage and greatness as a hero.
THAT is NOT what they are currently doing. remember, please, I'm begging you, remember that SM is
25 times stronger
actually more than than cause SM now lifts 15 tons and 15 times faster than Cap, but Firelord is only
5 times stronger than SM.
Yet when SM faced Cap,
he was the one saying how unbelievable Cap is and how
HE couldn't deal with Cap. they made it that
Spider-man had to go to his bag of tricks in order to cope with Cap, Not the other way around.
I'm telling you that makes no sense. And No "fan" should accept that.
I promise you, if ANY writer ever writes a SM vs Firelord story, and in the book they have
Firelord talking about how powerfull SM is, and how he can't keep up with him, how much more powerfull SM is, and how he has to go to other sources just to survive against him, I will be on here saying that is terrible writing.
It's unbelievable. I guess Marvel has done such a good job of lessenning this character that even the "fans" don't know anything about him.
One last point, I will agree that Marvel is responsible for this misconception. there were too many instances in the past where SM struggled against human level people. Someone brought up the Kingpin, and they are right. But trust me on this, I've studied SM comics very carefully and for a long time. and I can tell you all is not what it seems.
The historical fact is that Marvel established SM as a person who holds back
tremendously when he faces human foes.
yes too much, yes it makes very little sense, yes it is often a technical mistake, and yes it makes him look much weaker than he actually is, but that is what they did. Spiderman holds back. Superman suffered from the same problem. Yes SM struggled against the likes of the Kingpin, but when you read the stories carefully you find that
A) SM often had some handicap which reduced his power
B)SM was never hurt or in any real danger in those fights. even when it seemed like he was. Read the stories carefully and you will find that most often he was playing possom, or a tricking those characters.
C) when and if SM did get hurt it would be because of some other factor, like an explosion, or getting hit from behind, rather than the power of his foe.
D) if SM ever had to he could and did stop those fights with
one punch (the latest example of this I read was in ASM 271 where he fought the manslaughter. A human but very strong guy. IN the beginning the guy slams Spidey against a wall with a punch then forces SM to duck and get out of his way. BUT, when he hurts a bistander, SM gets mad and tells him to take his best shot. the guy swings at Spidey and Spidey catches the punch in his hand as if it was nothing. then SM just knocks him out with one punch.
When you read SM comics carefully you find plenty of examples like that, where SM stops seemingly tough fights with a single punch.
I'm begging you, go back, re-read those comics and see for yourself.
(read ASM, the other books were not as consistent)
For some reason however all "fans" could remember are the times when he struggles against the likes of the prowler, but forget the many times where he's knocked out the likes of Mr.Hyde, Rhino, Forelord, etc etc,.
what a shame
:
I said I'll reserve judgement about the fight after reading ASM...
That's a fact.
