Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[D-scythe]

Ummm...that's not what I was saying. And I wasn't asking for you to elaborate -- I was asking for GhostPoet to elaborate on his/her opinion. Please don't bash. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Again, who did I bash? I never attacked anyone personally. I was just proving that there was nothing to elaborate, because IMO nothing was there. All this secret desire stuff is being blown way out of proportion.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Bad Jean is pissed about the control she had been put under. Scott, Storm or anyone from the supposed "happy life" at the mansion was just an extension of that control. She probably would have zapped anyone who was associated with that life. Wolverine on the other hand does not really represent that former "controlled" life. He is the outsider, the animal. Wild and unrestrained. She "Bad" Jean) sees anything that can be associated with her "controlled" life to be a threat. She does not associate Logan as being a threat to her.

That's the logical explanantion... instead of asking why didn't she kill Logan? we should ask... why would she kill Logan??? Just b/c she killed everyone else isn't a good enough explanation to me

Oh boy, Oh boy, this is where I was trying to get to... I've been having a field day with this so hold on for this...


I honestly was thinking that was all there was too, at first. Then I thought about it. If Bad Jean were so pissed off with her old Life, and ANYTHING associated with it? Why did she get up off the med lab, walk past Xavier, walk past all the other Xmen (Beast, Bobby, Rogue) and leave. She's in the perfect position to continue a rampage, and exact revenge. They aren't even aware she's awake! She doesn't bother to do any other damage to the school, or anything. She barely trashed the lab (just enough to exit)? Remeber, it's your theory that this is the same pissed off Jean that just struck out, for no other reason at Cyke, not more than a few hours before. Why stop there and run home?

Kinberg said, not all fates are what they seem...or something like that. ...

Some of you guys may be a few steps ahead of me

 

[undomiel]

Do people really think it's possible to bring back these characters again... how could anyone take that seriously... Jean is dead... Cyke is dead... I'm not one to say bring em back just to make it comic book accurate... what's done is done... we should just move on from here with these two and focus on why this happened instead of wishing it were different

But didn't you hear about the post-credit endings? It appears that Jean/Dark Phoenix and Xavier survive, in some form or another.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Oh boy, Oh boy, this is where I was trying to get to... I've been having a field day with this so hold on...

I honestly was thinking that was all there was too, at first. Then I thought about it. If Bad Jean were so pissed off with her old Life, and ANYTHING associated with it? Why did she get up off the med lab, walk past Xavier, walk past all the other Xmen (Beast, Bobby, Rogue) and leave. She's in the perfect position to continue a rampage, and exact revenge. They aren't even aware she's awake! She doesn't bother to do any other damage to the school, or anything. She barely trashed the lab (just enough to exit)? Remeber, it's you theory that this is the same pissed off Jean that just struck out, for no at Cyke, not more than a few hours before. Why stop there and run home?

Ah...in my opinion at that point we once more have sort of a confused mess of a Jean again. Good Jean fighting with herself, asking Logan to kill her before she kills again. There is a struggle going on, good Jean is fighting with all she has. I see Phoenix as a sort of child. Immature and prone to hissy fits. What does a child do when it's confused and hurting? It goes to mommy and daddy. Had Phoenix been completely in control at that moment, the whole building would have been nuked. So I think that because of that inner struggle, she goes home again, to mommy and daddy. But that place is not a place of comfort either. Phoenix is once again flexing her muscles (stuff floating, water in water tank bubbling) And then, Xavier shows up to really piss off Phoenix by attempting to control her again. Once again Phoenix takes change and we say buh-bye to old Chuck, who has the oddest smile on his face just before he goes splat.

 

[undomiel]

Oh boy, Oh boy, this is where I was trying to get to... I've been having a field day with this so hold on...

I honestly was thinking that was all there was too, at first. Then I thought about it. If Bad Jean were so pissed off with her old Life, and ANYTHING associated with it? Why did she get up off the med lab, walk past Xavier, walk past all the other Xmen (Beast, Bobby, Rogue) and leave. She's in the perfect position to continue a rampage, and exact revenge. They aren't even aware she's awake! She doesn't bother to do any other damage to the school, or anything. She barely trashed the lab (just enough to exit)? Remeber, it's your theory that this is the same pissed off Jean that just struck out, for no other reason at Cyke, not more than a few hours before. Why stop there and run home?

I really don't know for sure, but just to take a crack at it...she had one-to-one confrontations with the others. They drew her focus to themselves.

The only other point I can think of is that she's not all that rational, so there's no real logic or pattern to her behavior. You know -- wake up, kiss Logan, throw him up against a wall, take a stroll, go visit the old neighborhood.

What I'm wondering about is when did she change her clothes? She was wearing nothing but her underwear when she walked out of the medical room, but she had her red Phoenix clothes on when they saw her at the house. Sorry...just a stupid little curiosity.

 

[weatherwitch]

What I'm wondering about is when did she change her clothes? She was wearing nothing but her underwear when she walked out of the medical room, but she had her red Phoenix clothes on when they saw her at the house. Sorry...just a stupid little curiosity.

I assumed since it was her parents house that she had some clothes there... Y'know, "Hi, Mom, hey, Dad. F**k you for thinking I was sick." **ashes** -Walks upstairs and changes clothes-

But seriously, i assumed they were from her house.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Ah...in my opinion at that point we once more have sort of a confused mess of a Jean again. Good Jean fighting with herself, asking Logan to kill her before she kills again. There is a struggle going on, good Jean is fighting with all she has. I see Phoenix as a sort of child. Immature and prone to hissy fits. What does a child do when it's confused and hurting? It goes to mommy and daddy. Had Phoenix been completely in control at that moment, the whole building would have been nuked. So I think that because of that inner struggle, she goes home again, to mommy and daddy. But that place is not a place of comfort either. Phoenix is once again flexing her muscles (stuff floating, water in water tank bubbling) And then, Xavier shows up to really piss off Phoenix by attempting to control her again. Once again Phoenix takes change and we say buh-bye to old Chuck, who has the oddest smile on his face just before he goes splat.

I wasn't really questioning her going home, that kind of made sense, I was questioning how this person who you say nuked Cyke and ANYONE else because it reminded her of her old life, would simply walk away when she's right in the middle of this life that she is so horrifically pissed at that she nukes her old lover ON SIGHT...

Jean didn't, at this point, have enough inner turmoil or strength to stop the Phoenix when she is seriously pissed. This is the reason we give for Cyke being nuked, how does she suddenly gain this kind of control when Phoenix is in the perfect place to be in FULL RAGE! Oh sure Wolvies got his hot and sexy card working, but what about everyone else. Especially considering Phoenix has just had a conversation with wolverine that gets her pretty HEATED!

to give you some more clues about what I am hinting at about this...

-Phoenix didn't seem the least bit PISSED when she 'supposedly' nuked Cyke. Yeah she went all dark faced and strange, but that was just the manifestation of her power in the movie.

-She did the same thing a few hours later when kissing Logan. And she hurt Logan, physically when she got excited. Like one of you said, that would really sting someone without a healing factor.

- She wasn't the least bit PISSED when she first awoke in the med lab. Crazy, lusty, and strange again, but not Pissed. It wasn't until Logan got after her that she even midly decided to move him ... and LEAVE??

- Cyke's glasses were off and most likely in Phoenix's hands when she start getting 'into' their kiss.

- Why is Phoenix again uncouscious when the team arrives?

What I'm wondering about is when did she change her clothes? She was wearing nothing but her underwear when she walked out of the medical room, but she had her red Phoenix clothes on when they saw her at the house. Sorry...just a stupid little curiosity.

No it's not a stupid little curiosity, it's a valid question. One that I think happens to underline my questioning even more. Not only did she not lash out the same way she did at Scott (this is assuming we working under the correct reasoning for her lashing out at Scott so violently), but she stops at her old room and gets some clothes before leaving the mansion??

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I still think it was Jean...I mean she did however remembered when they first met. hehehe. She grabbed his arm...that part always scares me. -gasps- Makes me jump too. when i watched X1, when Logan grabs her, I flew back into the couch. Scared the crap out of me. and now Jean grabbing him scares the crap out of me...

remember in x1...when Logan is sliding down the side of statue of Liberty and cut to Jean hearing the claws skidding down the side and then all of the sudden 3 pointy sharpy claws poke through near her face...LOL ... her reaction...was priceless.


hmm possible foreshadowing? ... hence she gets stabbed by those 3 pointy sharpy claws that almost poked her in the face in x1

 

[undomiel]

I still think it was Jean...I mean she did however remembered when they first met. hehehe. She grabbed his arm...that part always scares me. -gasps- Makes me jump too. when i watched X1, when Logan grabs her, I flew back into the couch. Scared the crap out of me. and now Jean grabbing him scares the crap out of me...

remember in x1...when Logan is sliding down the side of statue of Liberty and cut to Jean hearing the claws skidding down the side and then all of the sudden 3 pointy sharpy claws poke through near her face...LOL ... her reaction...was priceless.


hmm possible foreshadowing? ... hence she gets stabbed by those 3 pointy sharpy claws that almost poked her in the face in x1

One of the things about X3 that I did love was that little reversal you mentioned. In the first movie, Jean wakes Logan by touching him on the arm and he attacks her. In X3, Logan wakes Jean by touching her on the arm and she (eventually) attacks him. There's also a subtle allusion to the "Sleeping Beauty" story, which may not have been intentional, but it was still nice to notice.

 

[The Batman]

First of all, Logan was angry when he found out that Xavier was controlling Jean. He didn't think that was right. He wanted her to be free, but he didn't know what that meant until after she woke up. Yes, then he wanted the old Jean back, but he believed that's who she truly was underneath, if only she could be reached and saved from Dark Phoenix ("she's not herself" he insists to Storm when he's going off to track Jean down). I think he believed it possible that she could be her good self without Xavier's mind controls.

Second, I'm not saying that it's overtly stated anywhere that Scott wants to control Jean. But in the extra footage from X1, Logan insinuates to Jean that both Scott and the professor are holding her back. He was certainly right about the professor, and from that I think we can reasonably speculate that he was also right about Scott. Are we really to assume that Scott knew nothing of Xavier's mind-controlling of Jean? (And if so, that would demonstrate that Scott doesn't even really know the woman he loves! She is an artificial creation, or at best only half of her true self.) Anyway, in that same conversation Jean counters Logan by extolling the virtues of Scott's self-control. Let's face it -- Scott's the type of guy who places a lot of value on control. I'm not even saying that's all bad; in many ways it's good, but it would predispose him to accepting that Jean, the woman he's about to marry, being mind-controlled to some extent by Xavier. He's not going to have the same kind of problem with that that a wild, untamed spirit like Wolverine would have. Wolverine would probably rather see her dead than an artificial person in a cage, because he, too, hates cages ( "sometimes when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry") and lo and behold, in the end of the story, that's the choice he makes. He would think it more humane.

The intense beauty of it all is that we do know that, even when Wolverine sees and knows Jean/Dark Phoenix for all that she is, he still loves her. Completely. And that has to be the truest of true loves -- to see the good, the bad, and the very ugly in someone, and to love them still. Logan was ready to die for her -- Jean, Dark Phoenix and all.

Of course logans gonna claim scotts holding her back---HE WANTS HER FOR HIMSELF!

Yes, one can assume scott knew nothing, as in the comics, scott dosent know half the shady crap charles has pulled.

honestly, you're making assumptions on scotts character from a very biased source--wolverine.

 

[The Batman]

Nope, the only "artificial construct" is Jean/Logan. Just because schizo Jean came onto Logan doesn't mean normal Jean loves Logan. But thanks for trying to sound smart though.

people are so biased to logan and jeans relationship, they're willing to make up facts like phoenix was in love with logan, or scott wanted to control jean.

i wish someone would look at the relationships objectively for once.

 

[JokerNick]

who's saying Scott wanted to controll Jean, he loved her soooo much, he was breaking up at Alkali (emotionaly, lol) when he saw her.... then for some reason she Kills him???? that didn't make any sense

 

[Endeavor]

2. Xavier's message to the President... which also involved evidence... suggested that Stryker was responsible for the attack and that the Brotherhood continued it... that's why the new Preseident focuses their primary threat on Magneto and his brotherhood... kinda like the war on terrorism... we only target a select few instead of just hating everyone in that region entirely...

1/3 go together... the redemtion element was missing... but very subtle... Jean eventually subdues the Pheonix's powers just enough for Logan to finish her off... it's there but don't tell me it was completely left out

Well first, 1 and 3 are not the same issue. 1 was how X3 is incoherent and has inconsistencies in and of itself, as a standalone story. The two things that I mentioned are basic, stand out examples, but the issue is not limited to 'redemption' and the Cure. 2 is about the way they ignored critical canon themes from the comics and the cartoons, Jean's redemption being used again as an example only. Would you like another one? How about the treatment of Rogue? I don't mean Ms Marvel's power thing either, but how her personality and decisions are completely opposite of the character we know and grew to love... There's plenty to go around in this category.

On the other issue: I don't believe it logical to change social status of mutants as a whole (and the basic political attitude) as a result of a conversation with one man in which the X-Men basically threatened him ("we'll be watching"). If it were that easy then the whole X-Men universe would be bland and boring. Where's the hardship when all that had to be done was for Xavier to have a telepathic chat with the US president? Sure he had Shadowcat steal documents proving that normal humans hate and fear mutants and are trying to cause them harm, so what? The polical atmosphere in X3 should have reflected the increased hatred and fear towards the mutants by the general populace. If things were so bad after the Statue of Liberty that we ended up seing a raid on the mansion and little kids being shot at and tortured then after the Dark Cerebro incident we should have seen an escalation of that. That Xavier proved he didn't do it of his own free will is inconsequential, because to a government that has to answer to it's citizens the underlying problem still remains... that the mutants are a threat because they have the capability of doing such things. So yeah, my point still stands, that is an inconsistency with the rest of the franchise (and again, that's just one example in this category, there are more).

 

[undomiel]

Of course logans gonna claim scotts holding her back---HE WANTS HER FOR HIMSELF!

Yes, one can assume scott knew nothing, as in the comics, scott dosent know half the shady crap charles has pulled.

honestly, you're making assumptions on scotts character from a very biased source--wolverine.

But Logan was right about Xavier, though he had no reason to be biased against him.

And if Scott doesn't know anything about the mind control, then, like I said, he doesn't really fully know the woman he thinks he loves.

 

[WorthyStevens]

But Logan was right about Xavier, though he had no reason to be biased against him.

And if Scott doesn't know anything about the mind control, then, like I said, he doesn't really fully know the woman he thinks he loves.

Jean didn't even fully know herself. The only people who knew about the mind control were Xavier and Magneto. So how would Scott know?

 

[D-scythe]

The intense beauty of it all is that we do know that, even when Wolverine sees and knows Jean/Dark Phoenix for all that she is, he still loves her. Completely. And that has to be the truest of true loves -- to see the good, the bad, and the very ugly in someone, and to love them still. Logan was ready to die for her -- Jean, Dark Phoenix and all.

Don't you get it? Jean was schizophrenic! How many times does it have to be repeated to you. Phoenix is NOT an aspect of Jean's personality, cause Phoenix is simply a part of her schizophrenia.

And just FYI, Scott loved all of her as well, and would've just as easily died for Pheonix. In fact, I'm positive he wouldn't be able to kill Jean (like Logan did). Worse part is, he just had no screentime to show it. He NEVER has any screentime to show it.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Don't you get it? Jean was schizophrenic! How many times does it have to be repeated to you. Phoenix is NOT an aspect of Jean's personality, cause Phoenix is simply a part of her schizophrenia.

Um....isn't another term for schizophrenia...split personality?

 

[D-scythe]

Um....isn't another term for schizophrenia...split personality?

No. Multiple/split personality disorders are all on their own category, but schizophrenia is much wider encompassing and may have symptoms of multiple personality disorders. And worse still, there is no specific mental profile for schizophrenia so it makes it one of the more diagnostically challenging mental conditions to determine.

 

[GhostPoet]

Well first, 1 and 3 are not the same issue. 1 was how X3 is incoherent and has inconsistencies in and of itself, as a standalone story. The two things that I mentioned are basic, stand out examples, but the issue is not limited to 'redemption' and the Cure. 2 is about the way they ignored critical canon themes from the comics and the cartoons, Jean's redemption being used again as an example only. Would you like another one? How about the treatment of Rogue? I don't mean Ms Marvel's power thing either, but how her personality and decisions are completely opposite of the character we know and grew to love... There's plenty to go around in this category.

On the other issue: I don't believe it logical to change social status of mutants as a whole (and the basic political attitude) as a result of a conversation with one man in which the X-Men basically threatened him ("we'll be watching"). If it were that easy then the whole X-Men universe would be bland and boring. Where's the hardship when all that had to be done was for Xavier to have a telepathic chat with the US president? Sure he had Shadowcat steal documents proving that normal humans hate and fear mutants and are trying to cause them harm, so what? The polical atmosphere in X3 should have reflected the increased hatred and fear towards the mutants by the general populace. If things were so bad after the Statue of Liberty that we ended up seing a raid on the mansion and little kids being shot at and tortured then after the Dark Cerebro incident we should have seen an escalation of that. That Xavier proved he didn't do it of his own free will is inconsequential, because to a government that has to answer to it's citizens the underlying problem still remains... that the mutants are a threat because they have the capability of doing such things. So yeah, my point still stands, that is an inconsistency with the rest of the franchise (and again, that's just one example in this category, there are more).

Just on the subject of Rogue...which Rogue are you using to compare the movie version to? There are plenty of comic versions of Rogue out there.

You keep talking about canon from the cartoon and comics. Which one? There are lots of alternate storylines in the comics...which "canon" are you refering to?

Why can't you just admit that the movies are just another one of the MANY alternate storylines and not based in any one comic series alternate reality?

 

[undomiel]

Um....isn't another term for schizophrenia...split personality?

No, Jan. That's a point I was about to make. "Schizophrenia" is more of a catch-all term for mental disorders that don't fall into any other clear-cut category. What I think you're referring to with "split personality" is a disorder officially known as "multiple personality disorder", where the individual develops unique, entirely separate personalities, where each personality is completely unaware that the others exist. Most people, including those who post on this thread, tend to get them confused. If you want to get the more detailed scoop, try looking them up in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Fourth Edition, otherwise known as the DSM IV.

 

[Jan Irisi]

No, Jan. That's a point I was about to make. "Schizophrenia" is more of a catch-all term for mental disorders that don't fall into any other clear-cut category. What I think you're referring to with "split personality" is a disorder officially known as "multiple personality disorder", where the individual develops unique, entirely separate personalities, where each personality is completely unaware that the others exist. Most people, including those who post on this thread, tend to get them confused. If you want to get the more detailed scoop, try looking them up in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Fourth Edition, otherwise known as the DSM IV.

Yes, I see what you are saying, but isn't it also true that sometimes the personalities are in fact aware of the others?

 

[JimB]

In that end scene it wasn't Wolverine vs. The Phoenix... it was Jean against Logan... did anyone else think that scene was FNING AWESOME?!?! I mean God the man's flesh is getting torn up and he keeps moving toward her... showing his love for her obviously i thought that was the single greatest shot/scene i had ever seen out of the 3 x-men films... the same goes for when Xavier dies and Wolverine is using his claws to climb around and he sees Xavier go.. I was obsessed with those two scenes they make me want to see it again!

We are in the same frequency here. I totally share your excitement regarding those two dramatic and powerful scenes.

 

[undomiel]

Don't you get it? Jean was schizophrenic! How many times does it have to be repeated to you. Phoenix is NOT an aspect of Jean's personality, cause Phoenix is simply a part of her schizophrenia.

And just FYI, Scott loved all of her as well, and would've just as easily died for Pheonix. In fact, I'm positive he wouldn't be able to kill Jean (like Logan did). Worse part is, he just had no screentime to show it. He NEVER has any screentime to show it.

It has never been declared that Jean was "schizophrenic". And seeing as you have already pointed out the difference between schizophrenia and mpd, you will agree with me when I correct you to point out that even if Jean was schizophrenic (as you claim) she would not be considered two different people, as in a case of mpd.

And you're missing my point -- if Scott didn't know about the mind-control, then he didn't know Jean fully. You cannot say that he loved all of her, because he didn't know all of her. You are merely speculating. And when you say you are positive he wouldn't be able to kill Jean, you are undermining his love for her, because we know that that is what Jean truly wanted.

 

[undomiel]

Yes, I see what you are saying, but isn't it also true that sometimes the personalities are in fact aware of the others?

Perhaps such cases have come to light, but I am not aware of any.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Perhaps such cases have come to light, but I am not aware of any.

Just wondering....