You're definitely, wrong about this. I just watched the scene again and Jean appeared to be examining the adamantium in Logan's whole left arm.
I was mistaken here, I meant the scene at the end of the movie where she is checking his healed wounds. It seemed to me to show she was in some way attracted to Wolverine.
Just watched that scene again. Sure it could have been a mutual spark that any man and woman could feel after going through a traumatic event. I still didn't see anything in that scene which suggested that Jean liked Logan any more than a friend.
First of all I just saw this scene again and I didn't hear a giggle.
Secondly, I didn't see anything extraordinary about Jean's response. Once again I thought her response was a very polite way of rejecting Logan.
I have experience with this subject. I've said silly things like this to women with no interest in me who responded similarly.
I saw this scene again and have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm not going to spend time rewatching the DVDs just to find exact scenes so I can to analyse/mention/debate scenes and the characters' facial expressions etc, but I will say that during the first two films I personally saw evidence of some chemistry, and that was way before I saw X3. The most I saw was during the X1 mind-reading scene where Jean's reaction (a half-laughing 'I doubt it' to Wolverine's 'you might like it') showed an immense undercurrent of attraction, in my view anyway.
This is relative. Jean could have implied that flirting with a dangerous guy was something she used to do in the past but stopped doing a while ago.
I disagree. The 'dangerous guy' or whatever she said is obviously supposed to mean Wolverine. She means women in general are often attracted to rough and dangerous types and she mentions this right in front of Wolverine to justify why she is flirting with him but wants to stay with Scott.
We are still thinking on two completely different wavelengths.
And ne'er the twain shall meet, I feel sure.
Of course I still don't quite see the revelance of this because comic book Jean's storyline is a lot different from Jean in X-Men 3. The characters appeared to have significantly different motivations. Jean of the comics was motivated by power. I still have no idea what motivated Jean of X-Men 3 and I'm not going to get into another argument about that topic. After 3 years of debating I have not heard anything that would convince me otherwise.
In retrospect, I still don't see what's the point of using a scene in a comic book to justify something confusing that takes in a film. No movie adaptation should need it's viewers to read a comic book to explain away confusion.
I agree Jean's comic book story is different but you did insinuate that the comic i mentioned was something written after X3, so i spent considerable time finding the exact issue and typing in the quote and date just to show it was well before any of the X-men films.
I agree that viewers should not be expected to read a comic, or any other extraneous material, to understand a film - even though huge amounts of such material is provided to deepen understanding: director commentaries, novelisations, other tie-in books, DVD extras. Why bother with any of that if it's not there to somehow deepen and enrich understanding of why things were done the way they were and what was going on in the creators' minds during the making of the movie?
In my view, the link between the two characters could be deduced from watching the third film. Regardless of whether some people find that link to be unacceptable or unpalatable, I think Wolverine's line about caging the beast is a pretty strong reference to himself and to Jean, thus indicating a similarity.
I mentioned the comic to show that there was some precedent for the interpretation/information I mentioned regarding the similarity between Wolverine and Phoenix. Then I mentioned the issue because you questioned whether it was something written since X3.
Of course this is still the heart of the problem I have with this aspect of X-Men 3. I still don't accept the fact that the other X-Men who knew Jean much longer than Logan completely gave up on her.
Also, I find the necessary bond idea to be ridiculous. Cyclops clearly had an immensely stronger bond to Jean than Logan. Jean's psychic attachment brought Scott to Akali Lake. Not Logan. Of course this opens up another big problem I still have with this movie and I'm not going to argue about this ever again.
The others obviously believed that the Phoenix personality had taken over for good and made the Jean they knew into someone/something else. Someone who killed Xavier and then joined Magneto. Storm says to Logan: "She's gone, she made her choice" - by that point she had given up on ever seeing the Jean they knew, especially because the one man they knew was capable of bringing her back to normal (Xavier) was dead. From the X-Men's point of view, Jean couldn't simply be welcomed back with open arms. In terms of movie drama requirements, this works fine rather than endless scenes of the X-Men trying to plead with Jean/Phoenix at a risk of being demolecularised themselves. The one attempt to get her back at the house failed big time. If a friend does something terrible, there would be people in real life who wouldn't forgive or keep giving them chances.
I don't see how this would be a problem. In X1 Xavier told Logan that Scott and Jean were some of his first students. In X3 he tells Logan that Beast was his first student. It's not hard to conceptualize that Scott, Jean, and Beast all knew each other and were probably friends.
It's possible, though Beast seemed considerably older than the others and may have moved on from the school at an earlier point.
Well, I didn't see this Storm in the first two movies. In the first film she didn't get much character development period. In X2 she got more characer development but, I didn't get the impression that she could be so closed minded and cold hearted in a life and death situation of this magnitude.
She did say in X2: "I gave up on pity a long time ago" and "anger can help you survive" - both of which are applicable to the Phoenix situation. She felt no pity, she was angry.
You already know how I feel about using comics to justify this matter.
Of course, but they were trying to make Storm more comic-accurate in the third movie (flight, tougher, even a cut scene on her African origins etc).
That line of Storm in X2 is interesting but, of course I don't buy it. I believe that her heart might have been hardened somewhat but, I don't think that she lacks the ability to have pity. The fact that she has the drive to nurture and teach outcasted kids at the X-mansion suggests she definitely has pity. Besides I don't see how someone can have compassion and be equally unforgiving. The two ideas don't correlate well with one another.
Of course one can be compassionate and also unforgiving. It means she doesn't give people much of a chance if they do something absolutely terrible. Like murdering the founder of the school, her own teacher and mentor. Storm doesn't need 'pity' to teach those kids, that would be a horrible way to see her role as being motivated by pity.
Pyro joined Magneto in X2 without a lot of fuss and hoo-ha. We didn't see a lot of debate in X2 after Pyro 'defected' to Magneto's side. He made a choice, that was that.
Agreed except my issue with Xavier has always been the lack of empathy he showed. I didn't see him show any towards Jean after she was brought back to the X-Mansion.
His concern when she was brought back was ensuring she was restored to normal. He sensed what happened at the lake, perhaps sensing Cyclops' death, so his approach wasn't to offer empathy, it was to deal with a dangerous threat and re-contain the Phoenix persona.
Okay? What you're saying is still a theory and I somewhat agree with it. However, we can only assume that may be the reason Logan went after Jean. The scene Logan had with Storm right before he leaves suggests otherwise. I haven't seen X-Men in over 2 years yet, I'm pretty sure Storm said she understood that Logan loved her. Regardless of whatever it was that motivated Logan I still thought this part of the storyline was poorly developed.
Well, he did have feelings for her, we know that, so there's nothing amiss in Storm's dialogue about him loving Jean. He did, or at least he had strong feelings. But it's also obvious he felt great empathy with her situation - that would only have strengthened his feelings. He tells Storm that Jean 'is still in there somewhere', he is willing to give her a chance.
I agree with you about Logan but, not with Jean. Her actions in the movie were too inconsistent for me to believe she was actually caged. Jeans actions right after eliminating the one threat who had supposedly caged her makes me fell this way. In reality no animal that had been caged up like that would have reacted that way after obtaining freedom.
Of course she was caged. Her powers were caged in her mind, creating the Phoenix persona that also felt caged. When Logan says 'when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry', he was obviously referring to Jean. Who else would he mean!? And it means also that he felt he understood her situation, as it applied to himself as well. When cornered at the house, she did very much lash out against the thought of being caged and contained, like a cornered animal might behave. She obtained freedom and, like an animal, reacted mainly when threatened. She's not literally supposed to be an animal - as a human she is far more complex. You're thinking too literally, especially when we are talking split personalities.
Interesting but, let's have some perspective. Wolverine was not wandering rootlessly in the same way you suggest Jean was. It became obvious in two X-Men films that Logan was motivated to understand his past. It's easy to rationalize that either no one helped Logan or those who tried failed before his arrival at the X-Mansion.
I disagree. I think Logan was probably too macho to seek help, he was a wandering loner on the road, living in a truck, and simply suppressed his negative feelings. He let out all the frustration as berserker rages and aggression which he ended up using as a cage-fighter.
As for Jean it's impossible for me to accept a correlation of her storyline with Wolverine's in this manner because I don't have the perception of her consistently wandering rootlessly. The only consistency I saw with Jean in X-Men 3 was how inconsistently she acted.
She became rootless when she killed Xavier and joined Magneto. She seemed lost and rootless in the forest and at Alcatraz. She even told Xavier 'I have no home' and that was before she vaporised him. If she felt she had no home, and then severed her ties and any chance of returning to the mansion (by killing Xavier), that sounds pretty much like she had no place to go, and thus was rootless.
Finally, I think you are giving Wolverine way to much credit if you are actually suggesting that Logan conceptualized the psychologically behind why he would make the decision to try and save a person he barely knew.
I think he had feelings, and also felt some empathy because of what happened to him too. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
It was a violation and we can only assume it was done with good intentions however, I am still bothered by the seemingly unempathetic Xavier in X-Men 3 who apparently had no qualms about taking over the body of a comatosed patient. I seriously question whether Xavier's intentions were good after seeing how much his character changed in X3.
I think his motivations were good, his actions questionable. And therein lies drama and character depth.
That's definitely a possibility. Unfortunately, X-Men 3 was too short and underdeveloped for me to enjoy questioning this idea.
That's a lot of assuming. I guess we could also assume that if Xavier hadn't put the mental blocks on Jean's mind she could have learned to properly use the power she had instead of it building up unconsciously to the extent that it was too much for her too endure all at once.
I don't think it's really possible Jean could have learned to control all her power as her mutation was, we are told, seated in her unconscious and thus linked to her instinctive responses and primal urges. It means that her power could manifest subconsciously (as indicated by the room shaking during nightmares mentioned at the start of X2).
Of course I will always think the mental block theory is bs as a result of the final scene of X2 which suggests Jean would evolve into something else.
However, Jean evolving into something cosmic - although an interesting alternative - doesn't have the same drama and humanity as the mindblock idea. And the X-Men films have always been grounded and not ventured into the realms of space opera. X3 chose to suggest that Jean already represented an evolutionary leap/anomaly as a child but by the end of the movie she did seem to be evolving further beyond all notion of humanity as she tapped into her limitless powers.
Happens all the time in movies.
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the whole love triangle thing was pretty much resolved at the end of X2 when Wolverine practically admitted 'defeat' to Scott. Them bringing it back in X3 felt redundant and just showed the lack of ideas put into the final product.
