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Wolverine's so called "love"for Jean...

like i said in my previous post, it's done for dramatic purposes. i think you're kind of agreeing with me?

except for the hating x3 part - it's well known i do enjoy the movie greatly.

but yea, it's just done for dramatic purpose. logically, it may not make sense because it's only a matter of a couple weeks tops (and that is generous), but in my opinion, the angle is developed well enough that it doesn't feel out of place or unnatural.

Yes, I suppose I'm agreeing with you, my child... **Grabs and hugs**

Movie logic works a certain way, and we accept ludicrous movie crushes all the time. Or just having the hots for someone over a matter of days :o Happens all the time in movies.

Now, I do hate X3 for the most part, yeah.
 
Well I haven't seen the first 2 in a while, are you guys sure the movies didn't imply that time has moved foward? From what I'm hearing you guys are saying that all 3 movies took place in just 2 days each.
 
Well I haven't seen the first 2 in a while, are you guys sure the movies didn't imply that time has moved foward? From what I'm hearing you guys are saying that all 3 movies took place in just 2 days each.

Of course not. Most of the events after Logan's first encounter take place in a time period of a few days. I haven't seen the first movie in a long time but, as I recall Xavier made a deal with Logan to help him figure out his past in a day or two.

After Logan saved Rogue and was severly hurt I'm sure a few weeks went by. Then after Logan woke up from his coma he took off a few days later and went to canada for most likely a few months(End of X-Men).

When Logan comes back to the mansion in X-Men 2 Jean says hi to him and immediately leaves with Storm to find nightcrawler. I'm not sure how much time passes after this but, Logan and Jean don't see each other again until much later into the film. When they meet up again with Magneto and Mystique I estimate they were together for at most a few days before going to canada to stop Stryker.

Regardless of how much time passed in between the first and last encounter of Wolverine and Jean the two characters didn't have much contact with each other in X1 and X2. The characters were in direct contact with each other for maybe a week.

Ironically, the one X-Men film where Wolverine appears to express love towards Jean is the one in which they clearly had the shortest amount of time together.
 
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And that's all I'm saying. Realistically, there wasn't enough time for Wolverine to really fall that hard for her. If he never left the mansion after X-Men, I never would have started this thread. But he left, leaving almost no time to get to know one another. Wolvie doesn't even know what kind of music she likes... and yet he cries for her.

Yes I know... I look to much into things.
 
I think many of you are missing the point. There was always a chemistry between Jean and Logan, some kind of attraction and feelings.

Wolverine's connection to Jean grew even stronger in X3 when he found she was a kindred spirit with a dark side of unrestrained rage and violence just like his own berserker rages. He says to Xavier "when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry", a reference as much to Jean as to himself in that scene - that's obvious. This connection between the two is also in the comics - i have a comic where Chris Claremont talks about the two of them sharing a primal, barbaric aspect to their personas.

He was more forgiving and more empathetic towards her because he saw that wildness in her and also because both of them had been tampered with - he by Stryker/Weapon X and she by Xavier's mindblocks. He cared about her even more because of those things. And she reached out to him similarly - it was she who began being sexual in the lab (he rejected her advances when he came to his senses) and she contacted him psychically to guide him to Magneto's camp.

While some may not like these scenarios because of the absence of Cyclops, that does not make the movie's depictions wrong. Wolverine's feelings did not seem to me to be out of place.
 
Of course not. Most of the events after Logan's first encounter take place in a time period of a few days. I haven't seen the first movie in a long time but, as I recall Xavier made a deal with Logan to help him figure out his past in a day or two.

After Logan saved Rogue and was severly hurt I'm sure a few weeks went by. Then after Logan woke up from his coma he took off a few days later and went to canada for most likely a few months(End of X-Men).

When Logan comes back to the mansion in X-Men 2 Jean says hi to him and immediately leaves with Storm to find nightcrawler. I'm not sure how much time passes after this but, Logan and Jean don't see each other again until much later into the film. When they meet up again with Magneto and Mystique I estimate they were together for at most a few days before going to canada to stop Stryker.

Regardless of how much time passed in between the first and last encounter of Wolverine and Jean the two characters didn't have much contact with each other in X1 and X2. The characters were in direct contact with each other for maybe a week.

Ironically, the one X-Men film where Wolverine appears to express love towards Jean is the one in which they clearly had the shortest amount of time together.

You're time frame is pretty correct.

Wolverine comes to the mansion, and Xavier says "give me 48 hours", and then he leaves for Canada.

When he returns, X2 is a matter of a couple days, then Jean is dead. So no, Wolverine didn't spend that much time with Jean in the movies.

But again, for dramatic purposes (which this movie is), it's developed well enough, and it is okay to exaggerate things like this in a movie.

In Titanic Jack and Rose knew each other but for a couple days before they fall in love and she's ready to leave her husband and family for him.
 
You're time frame is pretty correct.

Wolverine comes to the mansion, and Xavier says "give me 48 hours", and then he leaves for Canada.

When he returns, X2 is a matter of a couple days, then Jean is dead. So no, Wolverine didn't spend that much time with Jean in the movies.

But again, for dramatic purposes (which this movie is), it's developed well enough, and it is okay to exaggerate things like this in a movie.

In Titanic Jack and Rose knew each other but for a couple days before they fall in love and she's ready to leave her husband and family for him.

I'm not convinced X2 took place over the space of a couple of days.

Movies and TV shows often compress time for pacing, drama and length issues. But it's hard to believe that everything in X2 (or X1 or X3) was in the space of a few days. No matter how events are compressed together for the film I don't accept any of these films takes place in two days. This isn't an episode or two of '24.'

I think people take the films too literally.
 
I think many of you are missing the point. There was always a chemistry between Jean and Logan, some kind of attraction and feelings.

Chemistry? What scenes in X1 and X2 convinced you of this? All I saw was Logan hornily flirting with Jean and her politely rejecting him.

Wolverine's connection to Jean grew even stronger in X3 when he found she was a kindred spirit with a dark side of unrestrained rage and violence just like his own berserker rages. He says to Xavier "when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry", a reference as much to Jean as to himself in that scene - that's obvious.

This makes sense but, I've always had issues with how this relates to other characters in the storyline.


This connection between the two is also in the comics - i have a comic where Chris Claremont talks about the two of them sharing a primal, barbaric aspect to their personas.

Is this comic based on X-Men 3?

He was more forgiving and more empathetic towards her because he saw that wildness in her and also because both of them had been tampered with - he by Stryker/Weapon X and she by Xavier's mindblocks. He cared about her even more because of those things. And she reached out to him similarly - it was she who began being sexual in the lab (he rejected her advances when he came to his senses) and she contacted him psychically to guide him to Magneto's camp.

I don't have a problem with Wolverine having empathy but, I've always had a problem with him having more empathy and appearing to be more forgiving towards her than all the other X-Men characters. Logan seemed to be the only X-Men character that gave a rat's ass about Jean after the incident at her parents house. I will never accept the idea of Logan having more of a desire to save Jean than Storm and Beast who knew Jean much longer than Logan.

Even Xavier's motivations seemed way out of character. I don't remember any scenes of Xavier expressing empathy towards Jean. The only emotions I saw Charles express around Jean were fear, anger, frustration, and nervousness. That's not how I expected Charles to act towards a dangerous and emotionally unstable person.

Wolverine's feelings did not seem to me to be out of place.

As I've said numerous times if you are referring to the theorized feelings of empathy towards Jean than I would agree but, unfortunately, the movie fails to depict Wolverine's feelings in this way. While watching this film I was always under the impression that Wolverine's feelings were suggested to be motivated by love. I thought the scene where Logan talks to Storm right before he leaves the mansion to search for Jean strongly suggested this.
 
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I'm not convinced X2 took place over the space of a couple of days.


I never said this. The events of X2 may have taken place in a few months. However, I still think that there's plenty of evidence to suggest Logan and Jean spent around a week together in X2.
 
I'm not convinced X2 took place over the space of a couple of days.

Movies and TV shows often compress time for pacing, drama and length issues. But it's hard to believe that everything in X2 (or X1 or X3) was in the space of a few days. No matter how events are compressed together for the film I don't accept any of these films takes place in two days. This isn't an episode or two of '24.'

I think people take the films too literally.

Are you serious? We know all about how time paced and stuff but look at the facts.

When Wolverine gets back, that night he is told he's babysitting by Jean. Stryker's team invades the house. Wolvie, Bobby, Rogue, and Pyro go to Boston to Bobby's house. The next day they arrive, his parents walk in and his bro calls the cops. Cops show up, Jean and Storm pick up the group, they fly to the middle of no where and Magneto helps them. That night they discuss Alkali Lake and Nightcrawler knowing something. The next day the fly to Alkali Lake.

Now how are you going to tell me this didn't take place in a few days. The only part that didn't was Wolverine's traveling time from the very start to getting back to the mansion. I assume the museum scene is the same day as Wolverine arriving since I think they are wearing the same clothes. Point out where in the plot other than the very beginning where it wouldn't be 3 days.
 
I hate silly, whiny Wolverine :O
 
Are you serious? We know all about how time paced and stuff but look at the facts.

When Wolverine gets back, that night he is told he's babysitting by Jean. Stryker's team invades the house. Wolvie, Bobby, Rogue, and Pyro go to Boston to Bobby's house. The next day they arrive, his parents walk in and his bro calls the cops. Cops show up, Jean and Storm pick up the group, they fly to the middle of no where and Magneto helps them. That night they discuss Alkali Lake and Nightcrawler knowing something. The next day the fly to Alkali Lake.

Now how are you going to tell me this didn't take place in a few days. The only part that didn't was Wolverine's traveling time from the very start to getting back to the mansion. I assume the museum scene is the same day as Wolverine arriving since I think they are wearing the same clothes. Point out where in the plot other than the very beginning where it wouldn't be 3 days.

You are correct.

In "X-Men" Xavier tells Wolverine "Give me 48 hours" - the events of the movie happen over the span of 2 days. The first night there is when Wolverine stabs Rogue through the chest.

The 2nd day is when Mystique disguises as Bobby, has her leave the mansion, Wolverine goes after her, Magneto kidnaps her, and takes her to Liberty Island. The X-Men immediately assemble and go to Liberty Island to confront Magneto and The Brotherhood.

After the events of Liberty Island, there may be a day or 2 that passes, when Xavier and Wolverine are both in their comas, but with Wolverine in a coma, he is obviously not spending time with Jean Grey. Immediately after coming out of their comas, Xavier directs Wolverine to Alkali Lake.

It is hard to tell how much time it takes between "X-Men" and "X2", but surely it can't be THAT long. It doesn't take months to travel, even if it is from west coast to east coast (is Alberta on Canada's west coast? Sorry I am not too familiar with Canadian geography, but I do believe Xavier mentions something about the Canadian Rockies, which would be western / mid-western Canada), and he immediately returns upon finding the ruins of the military facility. It is also shortly after the museum trip, as is stated, he returns to the mansion the day of the trip.

There's also the fact that when the Blackbird crashes, Jean says it will take a "few hours", so they aren't stuck there in the forest for a matter of days or weeks. They are only there over night.

The events of the movies don't take place over extensive periods of time per movie. From the beginning of "X-Men" to "X-Men: The Last Stand", it's a period of a few months / year +, but each movie only takes course over a couple days each.

I'm still not upset in the least bit about Wolverine's "love" for Jean Grey. Wolverine spent just about as much time with Jean Grey as he did with Rogue, but nobody is complaining about how he became a father figure to her, and became her guardian. It's called drama.

What I will agree with is the fact that none of the other X-Men seemed to give a damn about Jean Grey. They at least gave emotions to Xavier, some may not like them, but I have no issues with them. But Beast doesn't even ACKNOWLEDGE Jean in the movie, except for the "her's do not" line, in regards to her powers, and Storm completely dismisses her. I can understand Iceman, Kitty Pryde, and Colossus not being too concerned with Jean Grey, as they never had that much of a relationship with her (although they would have known her as a teacher, and probably had a level of respect and admiration for her), but not showing any concern from Storm or Beast was a mistake in my opinion.
 
I'm still not upset in the least bit about Wolverine's "love" for Jean Grey. Wolverine spent just about as much time with Jean Grey as he did with Rogue, but nobody is complaining about how he became a father figure to her, and became her guardian. It's called drama.

Oh I get the drama and stuff. Wolverine took in Rogue in his truck. So Rogue looked to him cause he was the first person to accept her and vice-versa. Plus they had plenty of time to spend with each other from X2-X3.
 
Plus.. how old is Rogue supposed to be (in the 1st movie)..?
 
Ahh see, that's why Wolverine could only be like a father figure to her. A good father. Not a bad one. Ahem.
 
Are you serious? We know all about how time paced and stuff but look at the facts.

When Wolverine gets back, that night he is told he's babysitting by Jean. Stryker's team invades the house. Wolvie, Bobby, Rogue, and Pyro go to Boston to Bobby's house. The next day they arrive, his parents walk in and his bro calls the cops. Cops show up, Jean and Storm pick up the group, they fly to the middle of no where and Magneto helps them. That night they discuss Alkali Lake and Nightcrawler knowing something. The next day the fly to Alkali Lake.

Now how are you going to tell me this didn't take place in a few days. The only part that didn't was Wolverine's traveling time from the very start to getting back to the mansion. I assume the museum scene is the same day as Wolverine arriving since I think they are wearing the same clothes. Point out where in the plot other than the very beginning where it wouldn't be 3 days.

You may be right but it's not the feeling I got from the film. It may have taken time for Stryker to organise the mansion raid, and Stryker's 'regular/frequent visits' to Magneto (as Magneto tells Xavier) would be over some period of time. probably weeks maybe months. Also, for Xavier to organise a visit to Magneto might not be something that could happen immediately.

Also in X1, more time does pass than some might think. In a deleted scene Rogue tells Storm she has been on the run for six months. It would take time for Sabretooth to travel to Canada and back to Magneto's island lair. We don't know long Wolverine and Xavier were unconscious/comatose at the end of X1, Jean does say Rogue took on some of Wolverine's personality traits 'for a while' which to me suggests more than minutes or hours, more like days. maybe weeks. Wolverine may not have left for Canada immediately after he recovered, he may have spent more time at the mansion before heading off. Also, Storm's neck was heavily bruised/scratched after Sabretooth's attack at the station (as seen in deleted image/scene back at the mansion), and in the final scenes at the Statue no signs of any neck injury were visible (although her suit might have covered it, I haven't checked details of her neckline!).
 
Chemistry? What scenes in X1 and X2 convinced you of this? All I saw was Logan hornily flirting with Jean and her politely rejecting him.

Jean was fondling his chest when he was brought back to the infirmary after the attack in Canada.

The end scene of X1 where she talks to him in the lab about the brave thing he did also seemed to show some kind of mutual spark between them.

The scene where he asks her to read his mind and says 'you might like it' gets a smile/giggle from Jean that to me showed immense chemistry.

I recall some kind of coy reaction from Jean when Logan returns to the mansion at the start of X2.

When they talk after the jet comes down, she tells him that 'girls flirt with the dangerous guy', which implies she was also 'flirting' in some way.

To me these indicate Jean had some sort of feelings for Logan which, although not as obvious as his, were still there.


This makes sense but, I've always had issues with how this relates to other characters in the storyline.

I don't see why it could or should relate to any other character. It was a bond of shared experience that those two characters had, not anyone else.


Is this comic based on X-Men 3?

No, this comic was published in November 1979. It was a British publication by Marvel, called Marvel Superheroes and this particular issue included reprints of tales from the Avengers, X-men and Spider-Woman. There is a long interview with Chris Claremont in which he says: "He (Wolverine) and Phoenix have a lot in common, they're both violent, elemental people - barbaric is the word that I used."

It's also interesting that in Uncanny X-Men 136 in August, 1980, there is a scene in which Phoenix begs Wolverine to kill her: "Do it Wolverine, strike! While the human part of me is still in control. Finish me with your claws, I beg you. I don't want to hurt you." He hesitates and she blasts him away. That's similar to the infirmary scene in X3.

Wolverine does impale Phoenix with his claws in New X-Men (as they hurtle towards the sun) and in Endsong.


I don't have a problem with Wolverine having empathy but, I've always had a problem with him having more empathy and appearing to be more forgiving towards her than all the other X-Men characters. Logan seemed to be the only X-Men character that gave a rat's ass about Jean after the incident at her parents house. I will never accept the idea of Logan having more of a desire to save Jean than Storm and Beast who knew Jean much longer than Logan.

The others obviously assumed she had passed a point of no return, and that if even Xavier couldn't restore her to normality, there was no chance she would ever be the same again. Logan held out hope she could be reached and he was shown as the only one with the necessary bond with Phoenix to be able to do that.

To see Hank attempting to reason with Jean/Phoenix, given that he was only introduced in the third movie, might have been a stretch, but it might have been nice to see Storm doing so.

However, the movie showed Storm in a much tougher mindset, more of a warrior, a person who saw things in black and white - which has been part of the comic book portrayal.

That same Claremont interview in 1979 says of Storm: "Storm is basically what she is...a goddess, a three-dimensional goddess, if such a thing is possible. I'm establishing that she is very intolerant in a lot of ways. She's very blunt, she sees things in black and white - something either is or is not."

It's also in line with the Storm of X2 who had given up on pity on long ago and who said anger could help someone to survive. Yes, Storm has compassion but she is also unforgiving, direct and proud.


Even Xavier's motivations seemed way out of character. I don't remember any scenes of Xavier expressing empathy towards Jean. The only emotions I saw Charles express around Jean were fear, anger, frustration, and nervousness. That's not how I expected Charles to act towards a dangerous and emotionally unstable person.

Xavier knew her capabilities, how dangerous she was, and how resentful the Phoenix persona would be towards him. It's no wonder he was nervous and fearful. But he also said she had 'a home and a family' with the X-men and that he wanted to help her. It would be foolish to show him being totally unaware of her capabilities or being perfectly happy that the mental blocks were broken.


As I've said numerous times if you are referring to the theorized feelings of empathy towards Jean than I would agree but, unfortunately, the movie fails to depict Wolverine's feelings in this way. While watching this film I was always under the impression that Wolverine's feelings were suggested to be motivated by love. I thought the scene where Logan talks to Storm right before he leaves the mansion to search for Jean strongly suggested this.

The feelings of empathy are not theorised, they are actual, as told to us in the dialogue in the lab. 'Sometimes when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry' and 'it sounds like Jean had no choice at all' show the similarity with Wolverine's own experiences.

Both Wolverine and Phoenix were caged beasts who were prone to unrestrained violence and rage.

What happenend to Wolverine took away part of his mind and left him lost and wandering rootlessly; what happened to Jean took away part of her mind and ended up leaving her lost and wandering rootlessly.

What Xavier did may have been a violation but he acted with good intent and his mind blocks did work for many years. Could Jean have otherwise wielded all that power safely? We have to assume she could not, that even if the blocks hadn't gone in and led to the Phoenix persona, she may have done something terrible accidentally because her power was too great to wield safely and precisely.
 
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Jean was fondling his chest when he was brought back to the infirmary after the attack in Canada.

You're definitely, wrong about this. I just watched the scene again and Jean appeared to be examining the adamantium in Logan's whole left arm.

The end scene of X1 where she talks to him in the lab about the brave thing he did also seemed to show some kind of mutual spark between them.

Just watched that scene again. Sure it could have been a mutual spark that any man and woman could feel after going through a traumatic event. I still didn't see anything in that scene which suggested that Jean liked Logan any more than a friend.

The scene where he asks her to read his mind and says 'you might like it' gets a smile/giggle from Jean that to me showed immense chemistry.

First of all I just saw this scene again and I didn't hear a giggle.
Secondly, I didn't see anything extraordinary about Jean's response. Once again I thought her response was a very polite way of rejecting Logan.


I have experience with this subject. I've said silly things like this to women with no interest in me who responded similarly.



I recall some kind of coy reaction from Jean when Logan returns to the mansion at the start of X2.

I saw this scene again and have no idea what you're talking about.

When they talk after the jet comes down, she tells him that 'girls flirt with the dangerous guy', which implies she was also 'flirting' in some way.

This is relative. Jean could have implied that flirting with a dangerous guy was something she used to do in the past but stopped doing a while ago.


To me these indicate Jean had some sort of feelings for Logan which, although not as obvious as his, were still there.

We are still thinking on two completely different wavelengths.



I don't see why it could or should relate to any other character. It was a bond of shared experience that those two characters had, not anyone else.

I thought I already addressed this in my last post?



No, this comic was published in November 1979. It was a British publication by Marvel, called Marvel Superheroes and this particular issue included reprints of tales from the Avengers, X-men and Spider-Woman. There is a long interview with Chris Claremont in which he says: "He (Wolverine) and Phoenix have a lot in common, they're both violent, elemental people - barbaric is the word that I used."

Of course I still don't quite see the revelance of this because comic book Jean's storyline is a lot different from Jean in X-Men 3. The characters appeared to have significantly different motivations. Jean of the comics was motivated by power. I still have no idea what motivated Jean of X-Men 3 and I'm not going to get into another argument about that topic. After 3 years of debating I have not heard anything that would convince me otherwise.

In retrospect, I still don't see what's the point of using a scene in a comic book to justify something confusing that takes in a film. No movie adaptation should need it's viewers to read a comic book to explain away confusion.

It's also interesting that in Uncanny X-Men 136 in August, 1980, there is a scene in which Phoenix begs Wolverine to kill her: "Do it Wolverine, strike! While the human part of me is still in control. Finish me with your claws, I beg you. I don't want to hurt you." He hesitates and she blasts him away. That's similar to the infirmary scene in X3.

Agreed.


The others obviously assumed she had passed a point of no return, and that if even Xavier couldn't restore her to normality, there was no chance she would ever be the same again. Logan held out hope she could be reached and he was shown as the only one with the necessary bond with Phoenix to be able to do that. .

Of course this is still the heart of the problem I have with this aspect of X-Men 3. I still don't accept the fact that the other X-Men who knew Jean much longer than Logan completely gave up on her.

Also, I find the necessary bond idea to be ridiculous. Cyclops clearly had an immensely stronger bond to Jean than Logan. Jean's psychic attachment brought Scott to Akali Lake. Not Logan. Of course this opens up another big problem I still have with this movie and I'm not going to argue about this ever again.

To see Hank attempting to reason with Jean/Phoenix, given that he was only introduced in the third movie, might have been a stretch, but it might have been nice to see Storm doing so.

I don't see how this would be a problem. In X1 Xavier told Logan that Scott and Jean were some of his first students. In X3 he tells Logan that Beast was his first student. It's not hard to conceptualize that Scott, Jean, and Beast all knew each other and were probably friends.

However, the movie showed Storm in a much tougher mindset, more of a warrior, a person who saw things in black and white - which has been part of the comic book portrayal.

Well, I didn't see this Storm in the first two movies. In the first film she didn't get much character development period. In X2 she got more characer development but, I didn't get the impression that she could be so closed minded and cold hearted in a life and death situation of this magnitude.


That same Claremont interview in 1979 says of Storm: "Storm is basically what she is...a goddess, a three-dimensional goddess, if such a thing is possible. I'm establishing that she is very intolerant in a lot of ways. She's very blunt, she sees things in black and white - something either is or is not."

You already know how I feel about using comics to justify this matter.


It's also in line with the Storm of X2 who had given up on pity on long ago and who said anger could help someone to survive. Yes, Storm has compassion but she is also unforgiving, direct and proud.

That line of Storm in X2 is interesting but, of course I don't buy it. I believe that her heart might have been hardened somewhat but, I don't think that she lacks the ability to have pity. The fact that she has the drive to nurture and teach outcasted kids at the X-mansion suggests she definitely has pity. Besides I don't see how someone can have compassion and be equally unforgiving. The two ideas don't correlate well with one another.


Xavier knew her capabilities, how dangerous she was, and how resentful the Phoenix persona would be towards him. It's no wonder he was nervous and fearful. But he also said she had 'a home and a family' with the X-men and that he wanted to help her. It would be foolish to show him being totally unaware of her capabilities or being perfectly happy that the mental blocks were broken.

Agreed except my issue with Xavier has always been the lack of empathy he showed. I didn't see him show any towards Jean after she was brought back to the X-Mansion.


The feelings of empathy are not theorised, they are actual, as told to us in the dialogue in the lab. 'Sometimes when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry' and 'it sounds like Jean had no choice at all' show the similarity with Wolverine's own experiences.

Okay? What you're saying is still a theory and I somewhat agree with it. However, we can only assume that may be the reason Logan went after Jean. The scene Logan had with Storm right before he leaves suggests otherwise. I haven't seen X-Men in over 2 years yet, I'm pretty sure Storm said she understood that Logan loved her. Regardless of whatever it was that motivated Logan I still thought this part of the storyline was poorly developed.

Both Wolverine and Phoenix were caged beasts who were prone to unrestrained violence and rage.

I agree with you about Logan but, not with Jean. Her actions in the movie were too inconsistent for me to believe she was actually caged. Jeans actions right after eliminating the one threat who had supposedly caged her makes me fell this way. In reality no animal that had been caged up like that would have reacted that way after obtaining freedom.


What happenend to Wolverine took away part of his mind and left him lost and wandering rootlessly; what happened to Jean took away part of her mind and ended up leaving her lost and wandering rootlessly.

Interesting but, let's have some perspective. Wolverine was not wandering rootlessly in the same way you suggest Jean was. It became obvious in two X-Men films that Logan was motivated to understand his past. It's easy to rationalize that either no one helped Logan or those who tried failed before his arrival at the X-Mansion.

As for Jean it's impossible for me to accept a correlation of her storyline with Wolverine's in this manner because I don't have the perception of her consistently wandering rootlessly. The only consistency I saw with Jean in X-Men 3 was how inconsistently she acted.


Finally, I think you are giving Wolverine way to much credit if you are actually suggesting that Logan conceptualized the psychologically behind why he would make the decision to try and save a person he barely knew.

What Xavier did may have been a violation but he acted with good intent and his mind blocks did work for many years.

It was a violation and we can only assume it was done with good intentions however, I am still bothered by the seemingly unempathetic Xavier in X-Men 3 who apparently had no qualms about taking over the body of a comatosed patient. I seriously question whether Xavier's intentions were good after seeing how much his character changed in X3.


Could Jean have otherwise wielded all that power safely?

That's definitely a possibility. Unfortunately, X-Men 3 was too short and underdeveloped for me to enjoy questioning this idea.


We have to assume she could not, that even if the blocks hadn't gone in and led to the Phoenix persona, she may have done something terrible accidentally because her power was too great to wield safely and precisely.

That's a lot of assuming. I guess we could also assume that if Xavier hadn't put the mental blocks on Jean's mind she could have learned to properly use the power she had instead of it building up unconsciously to the extent that it was too much for her too endure all at once.

Of course I will always think the mental block theory is bs as a result of the final scene of X2 which suggests Jean would evolve into something else.

This will be my last post in this thread and probably my last post in this forum. I'm done with commenting about this film. I made up my mind about this movie a while ago. I've heard interesting theories about why I should change my opinion but, I'm very comfortable with perspective of this film.
 
This will be my last post in this thread and probably my last post in this forum. I'm done with commenting about this film. I made up my mind about this movie a while ago. I've heard interesting theories about why I should change my opinion but, I'm very comfortable with perspective of this film.

That's why I rarely post around here anymore.

"X-Men: The Last Stand" was my most anticipated movie of all time. It came out, and it was what it was. Many aspects of it disappointed me, either what they did or didn't do, and other elements of it met my hopes and expectations.

I've seen the movie countless times, I know it like the back of my hand. I've seen the other 2 movies and know them like the back of my hand as well. Knowing my movie watching habits, and the movie watching habits of others, I've probably seen the movies more times than most people here on these forums. I am admittedly not an expert of the comics, but I am an X-Men fan, originally from the cartoons, but also of the comics as well. I think that I know the characters and stories pretty well.

As a fan of X-Men since I was a child, I am more than happy with the movies, all 3 of them. I have my reasons why, and I can back all of them up.

Some people may not agree with those reasons, but that's okay. Them not agreeing with, or even liking my reasons, is not going to change my reasons. It's not going to change my opinions of the trilogy.

I do occasionally check this place out, see if there is any discussion going on. I enjoy the film enough that I do like having a place where I can talk about it. But the time for argument and debate is over. The movie is 2 years old now (going on 3), people's opinions have been formed, and not much is going to be changed either way.
 
You're definitely, wrong about this. I just watched the scene again and Jean appeared to be examining the adamantium in Logan's whole left arm.

I was mistaken here, I meant the scene at the end of the movie where she is checking his healed wounds. It seemed to me to show she was in some way attracted to Wolverine.

Just watched that scene again. Sure it could have been a mutual spark that any man and woman could feel after going through a traumatic event. I still didn't see anything in that scene which suggested that Jean liked Logan any more than a friend.

First of all I just saw this scene again and I didn't hear a giggle.
Secondly, I didn't see anything extraordinary about Jean's response. Once again I thought her response was a very polite way of rejecting Logan.

I have experience with this subject. I've said silly things like this to women with no interest in me who responded similarly.

I saw this scene again and have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm not going to spend time rewatching the DVDs just to find exact scenes so I can to analyse/mention/debate scenes and the characters' facial expressions etc, but I will say that during the first two films I personally saw evidence of some chemistry, and that was way before I saw X3. The most I saw was during the X1 mind-reading scene where Jean's reaction (a half-laughing 'I doubt it' to Wolverine's 'you might like it') showed an immense undercurrent of attraction, in my view anyway.


This is relative. Jean could have implied that flirting with a dangerous guy was something she used to do in the past but stopped doing a while ago.

I disagree. The 'dangerous guy' or whatever she said is obviously supposed to mean Wolverine. She means women in general are often attracted to rough and dangerous types and she mentions this right in front of Wolverine to justify why she is flirting with him but wants to stay with Scott.


We are still thinking on two completely different wavelengths.

And ne'er the twain shall meet, I feel sure.

Of course I still don't quite see the revelance of this because comic book Jean's storyline is a lot different from Jean in X-Men 3. The characters appeared to have significantly different motivations. Jean of the comics was motivated by power. I still have no idea what motivated Jean of X-Men 3 and I'm not going to get into another argument about that topic. After 3 years of debating I have not heard anything that would convince me otherwise.

In retrospect, I still don't see what's the point of using a scene in a comic book to justify something confusing that takes in a film. No movie adaptation should need it's viewers to read a comic book to explain away confusion.

I agree Jean's comic book story is different but you did insinuate that the comic i mentioned was something written after X3, so i spent considerable time finding the exact issue and typing in the quote and date just to show it was well before any of the X-men films.

I agree that viewers should not be expected to read a comic, or any other extraneous material, to understand a film - even though huge amounts of such material is provided to deepen understanding: director commentaries, novelisations, other tie-in books, DVD extras. Why bother with any of that if it's not there to somehow deepen and enrich understanding of why things were done the way they were and what was going on in the creators' minds during the making of the movie?

In my view, the link between the two characters could be deduced from watching the third film. Regardless of whether some people find that link to be unacceptable or unpalatable, I think Wolverine's line about caging the beast is a pretty strong reference to himself and to Jean, thus indicating a similarity.

I mentioned the comic to show that there was some precedent for the interpretation/information I mentioned regarding the similarity between Wolverine and Phoenix. Then I mentioned the issue because you questioned whether it was something written since X3.


Of course this is still the heart of the problem I have with this aspect of X-Men 3. I still don't accept the fact that the other X-Men who knew Jean much longer than Logan completely gave up on her.

Also, I find the necessary bond idea to be ridiculous. Cyclops clearly had an immensely stronger bond to Jean than Logan. Jean's psychic attachment brought Scott to Akali Lake. Not Logan. Of course this opens up another big problem I still have with this movie and I'm not going to argue about this ever again.

The others obviously believed that the Phoenix personality had taken over for good and made the Jean they knew into someone/something else. Someone who killed Xavier and then joined Magneto. Storm says to Logan: "She's gone, she made her choice" - by that point she had given up on ever seeing the Jean they knew, especially because the one man they knew was capable of bringing her back to normal (Xavier) was dead. From the X-Men's point of view, Jean couldn't simply be welcomed back with open arms. In terms of movie drama requirements, this works fine rather than endless scenes of the X-Men trying to plead with Jean/Phoenix at a risk of being demolecularised themselves. The one attempt to get her back at the house failed big time. If a friend does something terrible, there would be people in real life who wouldn't forgive or keep giving them chances.


I don't see how this would be a problem. In X1 Xavier told Logan that Scott and Jean were some of his first students. In X3 he tells Logan that Beast was his first student. It's not hard to conceptualize that Scott, Jean, and Beast all knew each other and were probably friends.

It's possible, though Beast seemed considerably older than the others and may have moved on from the school at an earlier point.


Well, I didn't see this Storm in the first two movies. In the first film she didn't get much character development period. In X2 she got more characer development but, I didn't get the impression that she could be so closed minded and cold hearted in a life and death situation of this magnitude.

She did say in X2: "I gave up on pity a long time ago" and "anger can help you survive" - both of which are applicable to the Phoenix situation. She felt no pity, she was angry.


You already know how I feel about using comics to justify this matter.

Of course, but they were trying to make Storm more comic-accurate in the third movie (flight, tougher, even a cut scene on her African origins etc).


That line of Storm in X2 is interesting but, of course I don't buy it. I believe that her heart might have been hardened somewhat but, I don't think that she lacks the ability to have pity. The fact that she has the drive to nurture and teach outcasted kids at the X-mansion suggests she definitely has pity. Besides I don't see how someone can have compassion and be equally unforgiving. The two ideas don't correlate well with one another.

Of course one can be compassionate and also unforgiving. It means she doesn't give people much of a chance if they do something absolutely terrible. Like murdering the founder of the school, her own teacher and mentor. Storm doesn't need 'pity' to teach those kids, that would be a horrible way to see her role as being motivated by pity.

Pyro joined Magneto in X2 without a lot of fuss and hoo-ha. We didn't see a lot of debate in X2 after Pyro 'defected' to Magneto's side. He made a choice, that was that.


Agreed except my issue with Xavier has always been the lack of empathy he showed. I didn't see him show any towards Jean after she was brought back to the X-Mansion.

His concern when she was brought back was ensuring she was restored to normal. He sensed what happened at the lake, perhaps sensing Cyclops' death, so his approach wasn't to offer empathy, it was to deal with a dangerous threat and re-contain the Phoenix persona.


Okay? What you're saying is still a theory and I somewhat agree with it. However, we can only assume that may be the reason Logan went after Jean. The scene Logan had with Storm right before he leaves suggests otherwise. I haven't seen X-Men in over 2 years yet, I'm pretty sure Storm said she understood that Logan loved her. Regardless of whatever it was that motivated Logan I still thought this part of the storyline was poorly developed.

Well, he did have feelings for her, we know that, so there's nothing amiss in Storm's dialogue about him loving Jean. He did, or at least he had strong feelings. But it's also obvious he felt great empathy with her situation - that would only have strengthened his feelings. He tells Storm that Jean 'is still in there somewhere', he is willing to give her a chance.

I agree with you about Logan but, not with Jean. Her actions in the movie were too inconsistent for me to believe she was actually caged. Jeans actions right after eliminating the one threat who had supposedly caged her makes me fell this way. In reality no animal that had been caged up like that would have reacted that way after obtaining freedom.

Of course she was caged. Her powers were caged in her mind, creating the Phoenix persona that also felt caged. When Logan says 'when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry', he was obviously referring to Jean. Who else would he mean!? And it means also that he felt he understood her situation, as it applied to himself as well. When cornered at the house, she did very much lash out against the thought of being caged and contained, like a cornered animal might behave. She obtained freedom and, like an animal, reacted mainly when threatened. She's not literally supposed to be an animal - as a human she is far more complex. You're thinking too literally, especially when we are talking split personalities.


Interesting but, let's have some perspective. Wolverine was not wandering rootlessly in the same way you suggest Jean was. It became obvious in two X-Men films that Logan was motivated to understand his past. It's easy to rationalize that either no one helped Logan or those who tried failed before his arrival at the X-Mansion.

I disagree. I think Logan was probably too macho to seek help, he was a wandering loner on the road, living in a truck, and simply suppressed his negative feelings. He let out all the frustration as berserker rages and aggression which he ended up using as a cage-fighter.

As for Jean it's impossible for me to accept a correlation of her storyline with Wolverine's in this manner because I don't have the perception of her consistently wandering rootlessly. The only consistency I saw with Jean in X-Men 3 was how inconsistently she acted.

She became rootless when she killed Xavier and joined Magneto. She seemed lost and rootless in the forest and at Alcatraz. She even told Xavier 'I have no home' and that was before she vaporised him. If she felt she had no home, and then severed her ties and any chance of returning to the mansion (by killing Xavier), that sounds pretty much like she had no place to go, and thus was rootless.


Finally, I think you are giving Wolverine way to much credit if you are actually suggesting that Logan conceptualized the psychologically behind why he would make the decision to try and save a person he barely knew.

I think he had feelings, and also felt some empathy because of what happened to him too. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.


It was a violation and we can only assume it was done with good intentions however, I am still bothered by the seemingly unempathetic Xavier in X-Men 3 who apparently had no qualms about taking over the body of a comatosed patient. I seriously question whether Xavier's intentions were good after seeing how much his character changed in X3.

I think his motivations were good, his actions questionable. And therein lies drama and character depth.

That's definitely a possibility. Unfortunately, X-Men 3 was too short and underdeveloped for me to enjoy questioning this idea.

That's a lot of assuming. I guess we could also assume that if Xavier hadn't put the mental blocks on Jean's mind she could have learned to properly use the power she had instead of it building up unconsciously to the extent that it was too much for her too endure all at once.

I don't think it's really possible Jean could have learned to control all her power as her mutation was, we are told, seated in her unconscious and thus linked to her instinctive responses and primal urges. It means that her power could manifest subconsciously (as indicated by the room shaking during nightmares mentioned at the start of X2).


Of course I will always think the mental block theory is bs as a result of the final scene of X2 which suggests Jean would evolve into something else.

However, Jean evolving into something cosmic - although an interesting alternative - doesn't have the same drama and humanity as the mindblock idea. And the X-Men films have always been grounded and not ventured into the realms of space opera. X3 chose to suggest that Jean already represented an evolutionary leap/anomaly as a child but by the end of the movie she did seem to be evolving further beyond all notion of humanity as she tapped into her limitless powers.
 
There are only 2 problems that I have with the movie version of the Phoenix:

1. Phoenix killing off both Cyclops and Xavier. I don't like the idea of these 2 vital characters, arguably the 2 most important characters EVER in the X-Men mythos, being killed off. Both deaths do make for good scenes, but I don't like the results.

1a. As a result, Cyclops isn't a part of the Phoenix Saga. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Wolverine is completely out of place. His actions in the movie ARE accurate to the character, and Jean's reactions do seem accurate as well. She never returns his feelings, and is brought to her humanity by Scott - she wants to die because of what she did to Scott, it is the mentioning of Scott that brings about the human part of Jean, and subdues the Phoenix. But, as much as I love the scene (and I'd say it's probably my favorite scene of the entire trilogy), the final scene of Wolverine marching up to stop Phoenix, and essentially killing Jean, would have been 100% more powerful to me had that been Cyclops marching up against telekinetic blasts that kept knocking him back, and blasting her with his optic blasts instead of Wolverine stabbing her.

2. It wasn't developed enough. There are 3 good scenes regarding Jean's situation - Xavier explaining it to Wolverine, Wolverine and Jean in the infirmary, and Jean vs. Xavier psychic dual - that show any kind of struggle. The rest of the film, there is no struggle between Phoenix and Jean. What I hoped for, and what I began to expect after seeing the trailer for the film, was an ongoing struggle similar to Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars: Episode III. I think that handling her struggle in a similar way to that would have played out amazingly in the film.

I do like the mental blocks explanation, the unconscious powers, the split personalities, Magneto's manipulation; I like it so much more than cosmic entities and the like. I just wish that Cyclops was a part of it, and that it was developed a bit more.
 
For me, the whole thing was already settled in X2 when Jean told Logan that she loves Scott (repairing the X-jet scene). Logan even tells Scott this at the end of X2. It was just another way to have Logan in the spotlight and X3 just simply disappointed me. Logan's "love" feels extremely tacked on and forced. I'm glad Jean still didn't feel the same way in X3. The whole phoenix saga was ignored. It would have been epic if Singer had stayed on to direct X3 AND X4 back to back. Two years and some months later I'm still raw about it. Hmmpfff!

:up: the whole love triangle thing was pretty much resolved at the end of X2 when Wolverine practically admitted 'defeat' to Scott. Them bringing it back in X3 felt redundant and just showed the lack of ideas put into the final product.
 
There are only 2 problems that I have with the movie version of the Phoenix:

1. Phoenix killing off both Cyclops and Xavier. I don't like the idea of these 2 vital characters, arguably the 2 most important characters EVER in the X-Men mythos, being killed off. Both deaths do make for good scenes, but I don't like the results.

1a. As a result, Cyclops isn't a part of the Phoenix Saga. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Wolverine is completely out of place. His actions in the movie ARE accurate to the character, and Jean's reactions do seem accurate as well. She never returns his feelings, and is brought to her humanity by Scott - she wants to die because of what she did to Scott, it is the mentioning of Scott that brings about the human part of Jean, and subdues the Phoenix. But, as much as I love the scene (and I'd say it's probably my favorite scene of the entire trilogy), the final scene of Wolverine marching up to stop Phoenix, and essentially killing Jean, would have been 100% more powerful to me had that been Cyclops marching up against telekinetic blasts that kept knocking him back, and blasting her with his optic blasts instead of Wolverine stabbing her.

2. It wasn't developed enough. There are 3 good scenes regarding Jean's situation - Xavier explaining it to Wolverine, Wolverine and Jean in the infirmary, and Jean vs. Xavier psychic dual - that show any kind of struggle. The rest of the film, there is no struggle between Phoenix and Jean. What I hoped for, and what I began to expect after seeing the trailer for the film, was an ongoing struggle similar to Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars: Episode III. I think that handling her struggle in a similar way to that would have played out amazingly in the film.

I do like the mental blocks explanation, the unconscious powers, the split personalities, Magneto's manipulation; I like it so much more than cosmic entities and the like. I just wish that Cyclops was a part of it, and that it was developed a bit more.

I totally agree :applaud

After Phoenix killed Xavier and went with Magneto she just spent the rest of the movie standing around not saying anything until the last part of the movie. Its like the writers remembered they had to resolve her storyline. The Cure and Phoenix saga could of been two movies.
 
I totally agree :applaud

After Phoenix killed Xavier and went with Magneto she just spent the rest of the movie standing around not saying anything until the last part of the movie. Its like the writers remembered they had to resolve her storyline. The Cure and Phoenix saga could of been two movies.

It didn't need to be 2 movies, the one movie we got just needed to be longer with more development.

2 hour movies are okay! They don't hurt anyone, they don't bite!
 

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