Comics OMD/Clone Saga/Joey Q. discussion.

[Venom 1988]

Spiderman won't get new readers from the cartoon, Kids don't read comics.
I was the last kid who was indoctrinated into comics- that was almost 20 years ago.

The Clone saga was a mean to un-marry Peter, but it changed into a two year unsolveable problem. With the Skrull crap, they could say that MJ is and always has been a skrull.
That would also suck.
After ASM v.2 #50 they should have ended all 616 based Spidey titles.

I always thought they should restart ASM about 10 years down the line.
Where MJ had died and Peter was a mid-forties'ish single dad of teenage girls who hangs out in a bad crowd. Events transpire where Peter who is the EIC of the bugle has to become Spiderman again.
The dynamic of the series would have Spiderman's daughter be the aunt May type role as someone who both relies and underestimates Peter. It shoud be canon.

And your against BND? Thats a horrible idea

 

[Blader5489]

Spiderman won't get new readers from the cartoon, Kids don't read comics.
I was the last kid who was indoctrinated into comics- that was almost 20 years ago.

The Clone saga was a mean to un-marry Peter, but it changed into a two year unsolveable problem. With the Skrull crap, they could say that MJ is and always has been a skrull.
That would also suck.
After ASM v.2 #50 they should have ended all 616 based Spidey titles.

I always thought they should restart ASM about 10 years down the line.
Where MJ had died and Peter was a mid-forties'ish single dad of teenage girls who hangs out in a bad crowd. Events transpire where Peter who is the EIC of the bugle has to become Spiderman again.
The dynamic of the series would have Spiderman's daughter be the aunt May type role as someone who both relies and underestimates Peter. It shoud be canon.

Oh God, my brains...

 

[Arach Knight]

I'll be the first to admit that I hated the idea behind One More Day/Brand New Day. But ultimately, it shows that the version of Peter Parker that is loved best, is the high flying bachelor who scrapes by in everything he does. Not the wedded college professor. Look at every cartoon and film incarnation of Spider-Man. Look at the popularity and then use that to measure which version of Spidey do people really care about.

I was only against Brand New Day because I was sick of sloppy retcons making already difficult to follow stories, even more convoluted. But after seeing the end results of BND, I picked up AMS #554-559. I haven't enjoyed reading Spider-Man this much since AMS #260 (Spidey vs. Hobgoblin). I agree that the way they went about retconning the marriage was pretty dumb, but I can understand their choice. Merely divorcing them, still leaves the dynamic of their interaction (Peter and Mary Jane). It also leaves Peter with much of the same disposition. Merely erradicating it all together, allows us to return to a Peter that was other wise unobtainable.

Having heroes barter with the devil is something better left for the likes of Al Simmons, but the damage is done and the end result is a much better jump off point for older fans and new fans who are only now discovering the title. As far as i'm concerned, even with the loss of JMS, BND was worth it. I won't likely buy the trade or the issues, but the result of the project has been a blast.

 

[Styleshift]

Proof of your ignorance here... as the Amazing Spider-Girl is an awesome read, as many of the pro & anti BND people on this board will tell you.

You should give it a shot...

lol....I never said it was bad. If anything I was putting BND down.

I have been thinking about picking up amazing spider-girl though. it has this classic what should of really happened in the 90's spidey feel. and im diggin it.

 

[Styleshift]

I'll be the first to admit that I hated the idea behind One More Day/Brand New Day. But ultimately, it shows that the version of Peter Parker that is loved best, is the high flying bachelor who scrapes by in everything he does. Not the wedded college professor. Look at every cartoon and film incarnation of Spider-Man. Look at the popularity and then use that to measure which version of Spidey do people really care about.

I was only against Brand New Day because I was sick of sloppy retcons making already difficult to follow stories, even more convoluted. But after seeing the end results of BND, I picked up AMS #554-559. I haven't enjoyed reading Spider-Man this much since AMS #260 (Spidey vs. The Wizard). I agree that the way they went about retconning the marriage was pretty dumb, but I can understand their choice. Merely divorcing them, still leaves the dynamic of their interaction (Peter and Mary Jane). It also leaves Peter with much of the same disposition. Merely erradicating it all together, allows us to return to a Peter that was other wise unobtainable.

Having heroes barter with the devil is something better left for the likes of Al Simmons, but the damage is done and the end result is a much better jump off point for older fans and new fans who are only now discovering the title. As far as i'm concerned, even with the loss of JMS, BND was worth it. I won't likely buy the trade or the issues, but the result of the project has been a blast.

Dude you just said you haven't enjoyed a spidey story since amazing 260.
and than you just addressed JMS as being a loss to the series.

 

[Themanofbat]

How long are you willing to give Marvel for explanations before you stop reading? Or buying? Or neither? I mean, how will you voice your displeasure if they don't give an explanation? Not to change it back to the real (my opinion) status quo, but to at least explain the new one?

And which specific things are you looking for explanations for?

I know you're enjoying the direction, just wondering at what point will you not enjoy it anymore, IF they don't give some rational explanations?

(IF, of course.)

Well, things that I'd like to know are how certain villains (Norman Osborn, Venom, etc...) will react to Spider-Man... Harry's unexplained return... those are a couple of things off the top of my head.

I'm really patient when it comes to waiting for things in comics, so I figure I'll give it to the end of the year.

 

[Arach Knight]

I said I haven't enjoyed Amazing Spider-Man as much. There were some impressive stories between then. Judas Traveller, Kane and Scarlet Spider were some high points. I also enjoyed Maximum Carnage, the Web Armor from the gold foil issue of Web of Spider-Man # 100. But I think I spent more time angry at Spider-Man comics, than enjoying them.

-Attempting to make it so that Peter was the clone and Ben Reily was the true Spider-Man.

-Undoing that choice only to allow Ben Reily to take the reigns as Spidey.

-Nanobot Carnage that was not a symbiote nor Cletus.

-Killing Scarlet Spider (Just cos I hated him as Spider-Man doesn't mean I hated him).

-Ned Leeds not being the Hobgoblin (it was much cooler when Peter had the rivalry with Ned both as reporters and as superhumans).

-Resurrecting Norman Osborn


-Still birthing of Mary Jane and Peters baby

-Toxin

-Spidey Stingers

-Bugpathy (talking to bugs)

-Organic webs

-Science no longer the source of Spidey's powers (Spider gods, really?)

-Eating Morlun (nuff said)

I could make a longer list, but suffice to say, I mostly didn't enjoy the route that Spider-Man took throughout my youth. I bailed out for a few years (almost seven of them) when they replaced Spidey with Ben Reily. I came back when JMS took over (he told good stories e.g. Digger) but abandoned Marvel and Spider-Man once Sins Past issue #4 came out. I just recently gave it another shot when I was randomly browsing the comic racks and saw that BND didn't create the train wreck that I thought it would.

It really felt like Spidey circa 1980's, which was about the last time that the character was interesting for reasons other than I found him to be cool. It was actually fun to read. And yes I consider JMS a loss. His only cruddy Spidey stories (Sins Past, BND) were ones that Joe Q forced him to rewrite. Why do you think JMS quit? He couldn't take anymore of the damage being done to his credibility because of Joe Q's ideas with JMS's name on it.

 

[Styleshift]

I don't know about most of you guys....but I grew up with a married spider-man. the experienced, wise cracking but mature one.

even when I was younger.
That's what I loved about the series. the progression from being a high school geek to a college student. to a married high school teacher.thats what made me a spider-man fan instead of a full time batman fan.
I love Batman's mystery arcs. but I could skip a few comics and still easily catch up without a care in the world because the characters were generally the same after every arc.

Not only did Spidey have progression but so did his supporting cast. (betty even got married,flash stop being a jerk) you actually CARED about these characters. ESPECIALLY his wife. she was an interesting character in her own right. the scene where peter yells at her after gwen died and tells her to go but she stays is just EPIC. it just kind of gives you the feeling like ok. shes the one. she really cares about him.

it really is one of my top ten fav. spidey moments. So without putting BND into it. because personally i don't think its bad story telling. (cept for Bob Gale) I just am not as interested because there is no longer any progression with the characters. it doesn't bind me to the book like i used to be. and i was there for every crap issue from when the clone saga went bad to the other.

 

[Styleshift]

I just recently gave it another shot when I was randomly browsing the comic racks and saw that BND didn't create the train wreck that I thought it would.

Whoa bro. you've been out for a LONG time than. even pro BND supporters real agree that the continuity in Spider-man has been EXTENSIVELY destroyed. we can't even expect them to explain it all. it just makes my head hurt thinking of all the issues caused by OMD.

(one thing you might not know is that spidey recently unmasked to the world. in front of a press conference. WITH CAMERAS. they have gone on record saying people remember Spidey unmasked and since OMD no one seems to remember )

20 years worth of continuity down the toilet.

 

[Arach Knight]

And level heads prevail. I imagine that age difference would be a serious factor at this point. I myself am 24 years old. I was already four, by the time they had introduced the wedding. I had been enjoying the Spider-Man character before then however. Also, many of my Spider-Man comics were from before he married Mary Jane. So I was able to see the transition.

I am not of the mind set that Spider-Man stories are harder to tell if he is married. There are a deeper set of issues at work and some of them may be social/psychological issues that derive from the male power fantasy paradigm that comic books are built upon. After all, most popular super hero characters are extremely wealthy and usually single. Regardless of that possibility, it seems that the quality of Spidey stories have been erratic as of late. From tolerable, to poor to amazing (no pun intended). If an unmarried Spidey will take away a writers excuse about how hard it is to tell a good story, then I consider the move to ultimately be for the greater good. But having heard your view, Styleshift, I am more sympathetic to the younger readers who have not seen both sides of Spidey.

 

[Styleshift]

You have a great level headed view there yourself Arach Knight. instead of flaming me and saying I'm automatically wrong. I respect that. t:

I'm 19 now and picked up my first spidey comic when I was 5 also.
I agree with you that the story telling as of late isn't up to par.

It's like they said "hey we don't have anymore ideas, so lets regress."
Now we have a peter living with his aunt. and even his skills as spider-man arent up to par. twice a common criminal has escaped him now. i forgive the spiderman burgalar incident. but freak was stretching it out waaaay too far.

 

[spidey-dude]

I think if people took off the rose-tinted glasses, they would see what a boring character Ben Reilly was.

There not rose-tinted glasses, its not a retrospectie statement by me, I havnt bought asm since they killed him, mybe if people took of their anti clone saga glasses they would see he was a very good chracter who had a great relationship with peter

 

[carnageehw]

I'm 25, and while my memory is horrible, and can't remember what I started with first, I grew up with Single Spider-man in cartoons, and married Spidey in Comics. It wasn't hard to go from a single spidey in carttons to married in comics. Anyone who has trouble with this concept isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

But I CAN at least understand the idea of wanting a young, single Spidey for the newer readers to get thier fill of the characters introduced in the movies. IF only there was a book that had a young, unmarried, still in school peter. A book where Harry Osborne was still alive and would possibly turn into a villian. A book where Gewn Stacy would come in and act like a love interest.

Man, if only there was ALREADY a book like that. Man, that would be the ULTIMATE idea for getting people interested in a single Spidey.

 

[Themanofbat]

I'm 40, and the first Spider-Man comic I ever purchased was ASM #148, so I grew up on a wise-cracking single Spider-Man.

 

[Themanofbat]

I'm 25, and while my memory is horrible, and can't remember what I started with first, I grew up with Single Spider-man in cartoons, and married Spidey in Comics. It wasn't hard to go from a single spidey in carttons to married in comics. Anyone who has trouble with this concept isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

But I CAN at least understand the idea of wanting a young, single Spidey for the newer readers to get thier fill of the characters introduced in the movies. IF only there was a book that had a young, unmarried, still in school peter. A book where Harry Osborne was still alive and would possibly turn into a villian. A book where Gewn Stacy would come in and act like a love interest.

Man, if only there was ALREADY a book like that. Man, that would be the ULTIMATE idea for getting people interested in a single Spidey.

Could you be a bit more specific?

 

[Blader5489]

I'm 25, and while my memory is horrible, and can't remember what I started with first, I grew up with Single Spider-man in cartoons, and married Spidey in Comics. It wasn't hard to go from a single spidey in carttons to married in comics. Anyone who has trouble with this concept isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

But I CAN at least understand the idea of wanting a young, single Spidey for the newer readers to get thier fill of the characters introduced in the movies. IF only there was a book that had a young, unmarried, still in school peter. A book where Harry Osborne was still alive and would possibly turn into a villian. A book where Gewn Stacy would come in and act like a love interest.

Man, if only there was ALREADY a book like that. Man, that would be the ULTIMATE idea for getting people interested in a single Spidey.

I don't think you're being as clever as you think you are.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Plus, the Ultimate Universe sucks.

 

[Arach Knight]

1) I was rather fond of Ben Reilly as his own character. I liked the urban take on a Spider-Man inspired costume. I don't think it takes any loathing or love of the saga that made him (in)famous. He stood out pretty well as his own character. He took on a lot of old Spidey foes. Carved out his own identity and for a while, even carried the mantle of the Wall Crawler (though I was not fond of that take on things, I respect it as an attempt to be like DC and start a legacy).

2) It is rather interesting that many of you consider the Ultimate universe to have been the better alternative to wanting a single Peter Parker. Do many of you still find it to be a viable means of supplanting BND, even though Ultimate Spider-Man does not count as mainstream continuity? How many people would prefer it if the Ultimate universe supplanted the 616?

 

[Themanofbat]

I hate the Ultimate Universe and everything within...

 

[Arach Knight]

And is there some verifiable, concrete thought behind that, or merely an abstraction which can not be grasped unless we were literally one with your mind? There has to be more to hating it other than wanting to buck the trend or because it is something different (and humans prove to be obstinate when it comes to dealing with rapid or sudden change).

 

[USMC]

Well, things that I'd like to know are how certain villains (Norman Osborn, Venom, etc...) will react to Spider-Man... Harry's unexplained return... those are a couple of things off the top of my head.

I'm really patient when it comes to waiting for things in comics, so I figure I'll give it to the end of the year.

I think that's a pretty good amount of time... newer readers (probably since the boom of the internet) really DON'T have any real understanding of what it means to wait for stories to resolve. I remember every single issue of Spidey having a cliffhanger and me sitting there like "Holy ****! How am I supposed to wait for next month!" Then I'd spend the next few weeks trying to figure out what would happen next.

Nowadays, the biggest complainers are the ones that want results NOW, NOW, NOW...

 

[USMC]

I said I haven't enjoyed Amazing Spider-Man as much. There were some impressive stories between then. Judas Traveller, Kane and Scarlet Spider were some high points. I also enjoyed Maximum Carnage, the Web Armor from the gold foil issue of Web of Spider-Man # 100. But I think I spent more time angry at Spider-Man comics, than enjoying them.

God, I count those stories as being some of the worst in Spidey's history...

Guess I am getting old.

 

[Arach Knight]

Judas Traveller, Scarlet Spider and Kane were just interesting characters to me. I was not against clones until they tried to replace Peter with Ben, as being the true Spider-Man. And I didn't like them passing the mantle to Ben either. But I was not against Kane or Scarlet Spider. I also liked the Web Armor for two reasons.

1)It was a nice novelty
2)It showed how inventive Peter could be. He is constantly proclaimed as one of the brilliant minds of the Marvel U (behind Reed Richards, Doctor Doom and Tony Stark) yet we never see him do much because he is heavily portrayed as Joe Average. So for him to invent an armor that would aid him in taking on more than one powerful foe at a time, was just pretty impressive to me as a kid. It showed that he could do more than just rely on his powers.

As for Maximum Carnage, I don't see how anybody could have hated that saga. Great story arc, great video game. I was pleased as a kid.

 

[Themanofbat]

I think that's a pretty good amount of time... newer readers (probably since the boom of the internet) really DON'T have any real understanding of what it means to wait for stories to resolve. I remember every single issue of Spidey having a cliffhanger and me sitting there like "Holy ****! How am I supposed to wait for next month!" Then I'd spend the next few weeks trying to figure out what would happen next.

Nowadays, the biggest complainers are the ones that want results NOW, NOW, NOW...

Thanks...

Them thar's the nicest things you've said to me in a while... I really appreciate that.

 

[spidey-dude]

God, I count those stories as being some of the worst in Spidey's history...

Guess I am getting old.

or just have different tastes maybe