Comics OMD/Clone Saga/Joey Q. discussion.

[Styleshift]

^^^I think it has much to do with the writers on the book than anything else....
look at writers like JMS.

look at how many continuity mistakes he's made since his tenure.
Peter mentioning to Ezekiel that he's never fought along side a person like him before.
(Ben Reily)
Peter retrieving his Spidey costume from a stashed place that he had webbed up.
When he destroyed the costume.
Mary not having any problems with him wearing the costume she feared.
Not only that but not counting the Howard Mackie mistake of him having a stashed black costume at aunt may's house. he originally destroyed the cloth black suit.

Making Peter a single would lock him into the same basic formula. Instead of expanding on whats given and giving mary jane a life. Writers wouldn't have to research as much when writing the character. and when someone who doesn't KNOW current spidey comes on they can cash in on that person's success. say if Sam Raimi wrote a spidey story it might sell out. and he doesn't have to research the current continuity since he's a fan of the spidey of the past. Just like when Richard Donner wrote Superman for a while. It's an easy way out of being creative if you look at it this way.

 

[Arach Knight]

Actually the only time I can think of Spider-Man being married to MJ in the non-comic format was in the Marvel Super Heroes arcade game. Maximum Carnage uses a storyline during his married years, but that game doesn't make too much mention of MJ or Peters relationship with her. The focus of the game was purely on taking down Carnage. And you said it before I did. The cartoon sucked Mary Jane into some alternate crap dimension along with Green Goblin. So that was all kind of undone. And, that cartoon didn't start with a 16 year old Peter.

Other than Ultimate Spider-Man and Spider-Man: The Movie Game, you don't start out with high school teenage Peter. Most representations of a single Peter Parker in non-comic formats, usually portray him as college aged. Just look at MTV's Spider-Man. He was still single, still dating Mary Jane but not 16. He wasn't even a minor. I can understand the outrage, but honestly, dropping Mary Jane isn't even close to terrible. While she may have progressed the character, that lasting effect is minimal.

How many "Mary Jane is in danger because she knows Spider-Man's secret" stories, do you think they can make? How many "She's a strong woman behind a strong man" type of stories do you think you can get? Do you read Ultimate Spider-Man? I remember when everybody made a huge fuss over breaking up Peter and MJ in that after they (once again) killed Gwen Stacy. But how much more fun was it to read about his misadventures while dating Kitty Pryde?

Mary Jane is a nice character, she gives Peter something to hold onto. It may have even given him a little more courage to fight in the field, but ultimately her retcon does not detract to the book, no more than her presence genuinely contributed to the book. I'd rather them bring back Ned Leeds, who was actually an interesting angle (a villain and a hero being rivals in both egos). Spider-gods...that ruins things. Giving him the power to talk to bugs and have stingers...that ruins things. If they turned around and resurrected Uncle Ben (a la House of M) even that ruins things.

Getting rid of a character who has pretty much done all she can do in the on-going saga of The Amazing Spider-Man, really isn't this horrible fate that everyone makes it out to be. The only thing I am upset about, is how they retconned it. Not the fact that they retconned it. Besides, it isn't like he can't date Mary Jane again, unless they have alredy married her off to another character. If someone cares to, you can please afford examples of how Mary Janes presence made a valid contribution to Spider-Man stories other than making Peter happy and married.

Give me story dynamics that would make things more exciting by having her? And don't just tell me something like "Peter or MJ could have an affair" cos guess what? He can do that if he gets a long time girlfriend under the current scenario. I want something that they could have only done if they kept MJ around. You know what Spidey can do without her though? Date as many femme fatales as he wants. Each with their own successes, failures and secrets.

 

[Styleshift]

Actually the only time I can think of Spider-Man being married to MJ in the non-comic format was in the Marvel Super Heroes arcade game. Maximum Carnage uses a storyline during his married years, but that game doesn't make too much mention of MJ or Peters relationship with her. The focus of the game was purely on taking down Carnage. And you said it before I did. The cartoon sucked Mary Jane into some alternate crap dimension along with Green Goblin. So that was all kind of undone. And, that cartoon didn't start with a 16 year old Peter.

Spider-man 2001 for the playstation 1.
Spider-man 2: Enter Electro (While Mj is not mentioned or seen in the game. It is heavily continued from 1 so it still counts.)

The amazing Spider-man vs the kingpin.
Spider-man vs. the king pin. (there were 2 different versions)
Everytime they ever mentioned a relationship. Peter was married.
And about the cartoon. The spectacular Spider-man started with a 16 year old Peter. Spider-man TAS has a 19 year old peter. but he's been Spider-man for a while.

Every Spider-man story has always started him off with the base age of 15-17. even if he hadn't wore the webs until later.
My point is every story has started with Peter at the start or close to the start of his career as Spider-man.

Other than Ultimate Spider-Man and Spider-Man: The Movie Game, you don't start out with high school teenage Peter. Most representations of a single Peter Parker in non-comic formats, usually portray him as college aged. Just look at MTV's Spider-Man. He was still single, still dating Mary Jane but not 16. He wasn't even a minor. I can understand the outrage, but honestly, dropping Mary Jane isn't even close to terrible. While she may have progressed the character, that lasting effect is minimal.

Mtv Spider-man was 18 and loosely based off of Movie Spider-man. they couldn't have married him off. It'd be the jim shooter/stan lee marriage thing all over again. Besides Spidey never married at a college age in the first place I believe.

How many "Mary Jane is in danger because she knows Spider-Man's secret" stories, do you think they can make? How many "She's a strong woman behind a strong man" type of stories do you think you can get? Do you read Ultimate Spider-Man? I remember when everybody made a huge fuss over breaking up Peter and MJ in that after they (once again) killed Gwen Stacy. But how much more fun was it to read about his misadventures while dating Kitty Pryde?

Mary Jane is a nice character, she gives Peter something to hold onto. It may have even given him a little more courage to fight in the field, but ultimately her retcon does not detract to the book, no more than her presence genuinely contributed to the book. I'd rather them bring back Ned Leeds, who was actually an interesting angle (a villain and a hero being rivals in both egos). Spider-gods...that ruins things. Giving him the power to talk to bugs and have stingers...that ruins things. If they turned around and resurrected Uncle Ben (a la House of M) even that ruins things.

Getting rid of a character who has pretty much done all she can do in the on-going saga of The Amazing Spider-Man, really isn't this horrible fate that everyone makes it out to be. The only thing I am upset about, is how they retconned it. Not the fact that they retconned it. Besides, it isn't like he can't date Mary Jane again, unless they have alredy married her off to another character. If someone cares to, you can please afford examples of how Mary Janes presence made a valid contribution to Spider-Man stories other than making Peter happy and married.

Give me story dynamics that would make things more exciting by having her? And don't just tell me something like "Peter or MJ could have an affair" cos guess what? He can do that if he gets a long time girlfriend under the current scenario. I want something that they could have only done if they kept MJ around. You know what Spidey can do without her though? Date as many femme fatales as he wants. Each with their own successes, failures and secrets.

Ah yes the finale. How many times can you have Peter rescue someone he's romantically interested in before it gets old? This week it's Carlie. (the cop) Next week it'll be Mary jane.
How many times can Things not work out for Peter with women because Spider-man is always getting in the way in one form or another?
Mary Jane strikes me as the Lois Lane of Spider-man. shes a staple. Peter DOES NOT strike me as the type of guy to date a whole lot of women.
leave that for Tony stark.

I don't expect it in Peter's character to date She Hulk one month and the next he's trying to talk to Betty Brant again. and both relationships fail because of his status as Spidey. If this is happening over and over and over and over again. why would you want to continue trying to be in a relationship if you already know the results? That's the problem the marriage prevented.

 

[Arach Knight]

Shows:
Spider-Man (1960's animated): Teenaged and not dating.

Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends: College aged and unmarried

The Amazing Spider-Man (1970's Live Action): College aged and Unmarried

Spider-Man TAS: College aged and unmarried until the final season. Mary
Jane turned out to be a clone after the fact, thus
meaning he did not marry a real person (she
evaporated).

MTV's Spider-Man: College aged and unmarried.

Spider-Man Unlimited: Continuation of Spider-Man TAS. Still unmarried

Movies:
Spider-Man: High schooler. Single.

Spider-Man 2: Off and on dating of Mary Jane.

Spider-Man 3: Off and on dating of Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy

Games:
Spider-Man (Atari VCS): Single and unmarried (Gwen Stacy era)

The Amazing Spider-Man (Gameboy): Married

The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (Gameboy): Married

Spider-Man vs. The Kingpin (Sega): Married

Spider-Man/X-Men Arcades Revenge (SNES/SEGA): Married

Marvel Super Heroes (Arcade, PSX, Sega Saturn): Married

Spider-Man The Movie Game: Unmarried

Spider-Man the Game (PSX): Married

Spider-Man 2 Enter Electro: Married

In the grand scheme of things, outside of the games (which usually only involve Mary Jane because she is kidnapped by a Spidey rouge and must be saved...which was a point I made earlier about MJ's limited dynamic), most portrayals of Spider-Man are of him being a young bachelor. There is more to him not being married than who he dates. There is also the life he leads. If he has a wife he has a big push to get a serious job and a good place to live. But he can be bumy and messy and work a part time job when he is not burdened with the weight of a wife. It changes how Peter lives and what he does.

Like it or not, 2/3rds of his representations outside of comics, still show him as that high flying bachelor. And now that the comics are once again in line with that, he is still shown the majority of the time, as a bachelor and not a married man. Like I said, I dislike how they seperated them. Not that they seperated them. Thank you by the by for correcting me on the video games, which do seem to have an overhwhelming display of Spidey as being married.

 

[Styleshift]

Shows:
Spider-Man (1960's animated): Teenaged and not dating.

Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends: College aged and unmarried

The Amazing Spider-Man (1970's Live Action): College aged and Unmarried

Spider-Man TAS: College aged and unmarried until the final season. Mary
Jane turned out to be a clone after the fact, thus
meaning he did not marry a real person (she
evaporated).

MTV's Spider-Man: College aged and unmarried.

Spider-Man Unlimited: Continuation of Spider-Man TAS. Still unmarried

Movies:
Spider-Man: High schooler. Single.

Spider-Man 2: Off and on dating of Mary Jane.

Spider-Man 3: Off and on dating of Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy

Games:
Spider-Man (Atari VCS): Single and unmarried (Gwen Stacy era)

The Amazing Spider-Man (Gameboy): Married

The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (Gameboy): Married

Spider-Man vs. The Kingpin (Sega): Married

Spider-Man/X-Men Arcades Revenge (SNES/SEGA): Married

Marvel Super Heroes (Arcade, PSX, Sega Saturn): Married

Spider-Man The Movie Game: Unmarried

Spider-Man the Game (PSX): Married

Spider-Man 2 Enter Electro: Married

In the grand scheme of things, outside of the games (which usually only involve Mary Jane because she is kidnapped by a Spidey rouge and must be saved...which was a point I made earlier about MJ's limited dynamic), most portrayals of Spider-Man are of him being a young bachelor. There is more to him not being married than who he dates. There is also the life he leads. If he has a wife he has a big push to get a serious job and a good place to live. But he can be bumy and messy and work a part time job when he is not burdened with the weight of a wife. It changes how Peter lives and what he does.

Like it or not, 2/3rds of his representations outside of comics, still show him as that high flying bachelor. And now that the comics are once again in line with that, he is still shown the majority of the time, as a bachelor and not a married man. Like I said, I dislike how they seperated them. Not that they seperated them. Thank you by the by for correcting me on the video games, which do seem to have an overhwhelming display of Spidey as being married.

20 years of single spidey, 20 years of married Spidey.
You address the fact of his cartoon appearances having him college aged. Peter did not marry while was in college. They don't want to start off with him being an full fledged adult. since he didn't start that way....That leaves that plot open for them to progress the story that way if they so choose to include romance as a plot element. Peter married after he was a college graduate I believe. So of course they aren't going to marry him off as a college student. and there's no way there telling a story about a married high school student.

Peter did marry a clone. but no one knew but him. so technically him and the real mary jane were married even without her actual consent. her dissolving didn't destroy the legal documents.

Lets not add the movie into the mix because MJ was always the girl he loved. Gwen was used as a means to get back at Mj when he felt betrayed under the black suits influence. The movies will always be a poor example. its not even based right since peter didn't really care that much about mj until gwens death. in fact there were times when he couldn't stand her.

I see the movies as they always will linger on that plot just like the superman-lois lane plot in the christopher reeve and brandon routh movies. they think audiences love to see spidey lose mj over and over again.

all in all every in carnation has shown Mj to be the one. why is that? the influence of there marriage.

 

[Arach Knight]

Peter has only been Spider-Man for a decade (as admitted in his Civil War unmasking). Which means that he is now between 25 and 26 years of age. If he was 16 in high school, lets say he graduates at age 17. It takes four years to graduate on average so Peter was 22 when he finished. So it isn't like he was that much older when he married her. He wasn't even that much older after the fact. The point isn't about why he wasn't married. I never said age was a factor, nor was his job. That was your argument sir. The point, is that he is single (as in not even a steady girlfriend) in most portrayals of his character. It isn't about why he is single. He just is a single man. Yes age would make it unlikely that they would tell the story of a married Peter Parker, but that doesn't matter. Be him a teenager, college student or an adult male, the fact is, he is usually shown as single for some reason or another.

Also note that being single doesn't mean he can't be in love or get married again. It just won't be to Mary Jane Watson. Or at least it won't be again for a while. He isn't left to only date new girls. He can stay single or love somebody else and not have to be married (after all, not all love relationships in your life, invlove marriage. Peter loves his Aunt May doesn't he?). At this point though, since we are starting to repeat ourselves, i'd say it would be best to agree to disagree on the marriage being necessary. And we can both agree that OMD was not the best way to end the marriage.

 

[Styleshift]

Peter has only been Spider-Man for a decade (as admitted in his Civil War unmasking). Which means that he is now between 25 and 26 years of age. If he was 16 in high school, lets say he graduates at age 17. It takes four years to graduate on average so Peter was 22 when he finished. So it isn't like he was that much older when he married her. He wasn't even that much older after the fact. The point isn't about why he wasn't married. I never said age was a factor, nor was his job. That was your argument sir. The point, is that he is single (as in not even a steady girlfriend) in most portrayals of his character. It isn't about why he is single. He just is a single man. Yes age would make it unlikely that they would tell the story of a married Peter Parker, but that doesn't matter. Be him a teenager, college student or an adult male, the fact is, he is usually shown as single for some reason or another.

Also note that being single doesn't mean he can't be in love or get married again. It just won't be to Mary Jane Watson. Or at least it won't be again for a while. He isn't left to only date new girls. He can stay single or love somebody else and not have to be married (after all, not all love relationships in your life, invlove marriage. Peter loves his Aunt May doesn't he?). At this point though, since we are starting to repeat ourselves, i'd say it would be best to agree to disagree on the marriage being necessary. And we can both agree that OMD was not the best way to end the marriage.

Age wasn't exactly my argument. I should have explained better because I can see where you got confused. My point was...in all forms of media thus far. Peter had not been Spidey for too long. That's a starting point for people whom are not familiar with the character. Now peter is 4 to 10 years older than he is in the media. and nothing has changed. Except for the fact that he's in his 20's.

you can probably argue that its more accesible to readers. but the no one has complained about the xmen. and as big as a fan as I am I have NO clue what so ever as to who's on the current roster or is dead or whatever.

OMD caused a huge problem for fans that want to pick up back issues like the venom tpb. or kraven's last hunt in the future.
without reading OMD. fans will wonder why is he married to mj here? how come this is different? harry died right here? why does spidey have wolverine spikes coming out of his hands?

This may push fans away from continuing to pick up the book. it's why i rarely pick up the xmen.

 

[carnageehw]

Give me story dynamics that would make things more exciting by having her? And don't just tell me something like "Peter or MJ could have an affair" cos guess what? He can do that if he gets a long time girlfriend under the current scenario. I want something that they could have only done if they kept MJ around.

Your post was really good, but I have some issues with these two things: For this one, yeah, technically you can tell any story replacing Mary Jane with another chick. But the stories won't have the impact that they would have if Peter is with MAry jane, and stroong character you feel for.
Let's say if peter were to have some romantic tension with another girl. It would be more impactful, be more emotional and tense if he is married to Mary jane, because more is at stake then if he developed romantic tension with a new girl while dating some random chick.

You know what Spidey can do without her though? Date as many femme fatales as he wants. Each with their own successes, failures and secrets.

Part of what I liked about your post was that you made a decent case for why mary jane's retcon wasn't that bad. But isn't "dating more femme fatales" as cliched and used up as you said Mary janes stories were?

 

[farmernudie]

The problem is....even in the newest Issue MJ is seen reading FUAST.

People already are going to associate Pete and Mj to the devil.

Do you really REALLY want your main characters associated witht he devil forever?

That's what people are going to do now.

And if you really REALLY want MJ out of the picture....don't bring her back in at all, and especially with more nods to the devil.

Because they are now either going to A) come back together which i hope they remarry...but why put them thru a poorly written reboot just to bring them back together within the reboot?? Pointless!!

or B) they are going to date other people and be in the story here and there and people are just going to always wonder when the AMNESICALLY SATANIC MEMORY LAPSE COUPLE will get back together or wince as we have to watch the date/kiss, etc other people...because the fans are NOT mindwiped...and it is just awkward to see the two with other people, because we KNOW they are still married and a part of their souls does too....so this is all just....DUMB to say it nicely.

 

[Themanofbat]

Maybe they will simply date and be together... no marriage necessary.

But I bet it will be a bumpy ride before they get there...

 

[Arach Knight]

Part of what I liked about your post was that you made a decent case for why mary jane's retcon wasn't that bad. But isn't "dating more femme fatales" as cliched and used up as you said Mary janes stories were?

I don't want to limit his interactions to just dangerous women (Black Cat) or the like. There is more freedom to what Peter does as an unmarried man, than there is with him being married to Mary Jane. Not only has Spider-Man proven that point but so has an unrelated book with an unrelated character. I don't know how many of you read DC books, but a long time ago, there was a Batman Arc called Son of the Demon. In that story, Batman gets Talia Al Ghul pregnant. Her being the mother to Batman's child, caused Batman to become overly cautious in his role as the Dark Knight. He was getting so sloppy (because he was now concerned with raising a biological child) that Talia ultimately decided to lie and tell him that she had a miscarriage. It hurt him, but he recovered and went back to being the human lethal weapon that is The Batman.

Does anybody remember the end of the clone saga? Mary Jane was pregnant, Peter was done with school and that ultimately led to Peter Parker retiring. Much of the debate about Spider-Man right now, is that it makes sense for him to meet a woman, and get married. But what follows getting married? Settling down. The reason Cyclops and Jean work, or Ant Man and Wasp almost worked, is because they were all super hero couples. Mary Jane is human. An untrained human at that. She is a liability. She some what drags him down. Why do you think he retired? He didn't want to accidentally get killed and leave a fatherless child in this world. He was tired of her being in danger because she can't defend herself if his enemies find her. Those were not the types of things that Peter worried about when he was single. As a matter of fact, when he was seperated from Mary Jane, he had a fight to the death with Morlun because he was in his original Spidey state of mind, which was "i'm not going down with out a serious fight."

This is why the Ultimate Spider-Man arc worked when he swapped MJ for Kitty Pryde. Kitty proved that unlike Gwen (who was killed by Carnage) or Mary Jane (who was dropped from a bridge by Green Goblin) she could take care of herself. Being Spider-Man's girlfriend didn't put her in danger. The thing is, Mary Jane compliments Peter Parker, but she drags down Spider-Man. She can never truly be a part of his entire life. Even look at Ralph Dibny (DC's Elongated Man) and his former wife Sue Dibny. Her non-super hero status cost her her life. Another super hero wife felt that if she killed another super hero wife, it would cause the super hero husbands to settle down and pay more attention to the home stead and not the streets. Now i'll admit that writers do have the habit of writing female victims more often than they do strong women, but such circumstances seem logical (ever heard of gamer widows? you should look it up). The only way a super hero can have a normal married relationship, is if they share the same life as their spouse. Even then it is risky, but at least then you truly understand each other and you compliment each other. Mary Jane never really completed all of Peter's life. She just completed his alter ego.

He can go back to living a bachelor life, which is more interesting than watching him teach students, come home for a family dinner and talk about his day. When he works cruddy part time jobs, tries to help Aunt May make the rent, make it to social engagements and still duke it out with baddies around the town, his life is hectic and dramatic. The only drama coming from having a larger family, was the constant disappointment and worry that he put them through. That gets (got) old quick. Peter now has the chance to get a girlfriend that has powers and can share in his full life. Not just his human alter ego. You know what I think would be better than Mary Jane? Jessica Drew. They have a history, share a similar identity and she can hold her own even without powers (she was/is an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. after all).

 

[Styleshift]

Yet Peter still broke up with Kitty because she brought him down as Spider-man.

Jessica Drew sounds interesting but she's too affiliated with groups that would like to bring down/unmask peter.

 

[Styleshift]

I think a plausible ending to the marriage would have been for Mephisto to seek out the part of Peter thats affiliated with magic instead of the marriage.
Have Mephisto take it AND the marriage as a bonus to himself. that story wasn't written for fans. it was written because it had a personal agenda from editorial.

Don't have mephisto suddenly show up and destroy one of the most famous things about Spidey for no really good reason.
That was 2nd grade written literature.

So do you understand why it's riled me up so much Arach knight?

Don't destroy something this big. and Alter HALF of spider-man's history just because you have an agenda. we can argue all day about the direction of BND but right now we can't really call it.

 

[Arach Knight]

Actually Peter never broke up with her for bringing him down as Spider-Man. Kitty and her team are capable of holding their own. Kitty and Peter's relationship struggled because Peter was still confiding in Mary Jane as a friend and he then moved on to actually spending more time with Mary Jane. As you can see there is a dynamic of jealousy (essentially Kitty takes the role of Felica in the Ultimate universe, since Ultimate Felica is far older than Peter) is made possible by the fact that Peter (yes I know he is too young) is not married to anybody. Have you noticed that writers never say they hate Mary Jane. They don't even say she should never date Spider-Man. They just hate the fact that the two of them are married.

 

[Themanofbat]

Marvel Comics Inc. has had the agenda of getting Spider-Man single as early as 1994...

It's nothing personal, just good business sense for keeping the longevity of THEIR character.

 

[Arach Knight]

Exactly. Marvel never liked the idea of marrying off Spider-Man. That's how Gwen Stacy got dropped off a bridge. They couldn't keep her dating Peter forever. The only alternative was marriage...and they didn't want to do that to the character. It was never a part of his appeal, unlike say the Fantastic Four (Reed and Sue) where were touted as the family of Marvel. With MJ, they reached the same point they had with Gwen. She was dating him for too long. So it was either kill her or get married. They tried marriage and it didn't work.

The characters weren't even married for a decade yet (just seven years real world time) and Marvel already disliked it. Why do you think they retired Peter Parker, gave him a kid and introduced a clone (rather than an entirely different person that also had spider powers)? It was the only way to keep Peter (more or less) but make him single. And guess what...that didn't work. Nobody liked Spider-Ben. As Scarlet Spider sure...but folks wanted Peter Parker in the Spider-Man mantle. They then tried seperating the two of them, and once again it didn't work. All this is, is Marvel finally getting the balls to do what they have been trying to do for the past 14 years. Keep Spider-Man single.

 

[farmernudie]

The characters weren't even married for a decade yet (just seven years real world time) and Marvel already disliked it. Why do you think they retired Peter Parker, gave him a kid and introduced a clone (rather than an entirely different person that also had spider powers)? It was the only way to keep Peter (more or less) but make him single. And guess what...that didn't work. Nobody liked Spider-Ben. As Scarlet Spider sure...but folks wanted Peter Parker in the Spider-Man mantle. They then tried seperating the two of them, and once again it didn't work. All this is, is Marvel finally getting the balls to do what they have been trying to do for the past 14 years. Keep Spider-Man single.

Well, what marvel is actually doing is not gutsy but dumb. They're telling us that the customer is always wrong. They're doing something they've tried before, to get rid of MJ, only to endure fan backlash.

So they bring them back together, only so people ike JQ can instantly start plotting their next attempt and way to break them up. JQ had planned this for two years, so JMS wrote a whole bunch of (many good) stories that were secretly headed for reboot and another split.

So, marvel doesn't learn from poor history, but dooms itself to repeat it....over and over until, they've convinced their fans they're right and we're wrong.

 

[Styleshift]

Ok....dude, I stopped arguing which version of Spidey was better along time ago. lol.

My big deal with Marvel and Spidey now is that they hid behind the marriage as to why Spidey was crappy for so long.
They never had a problem with it until 10 years later.

You can't blame the confusing plot of the clone saga on that. You can't blame "Planet of the symbiotes" on Mary jane.

Nor can you blame recent stories like "The other" or "Sins past".
The poor choice they made along time ago was settling the two down in the sense of a normal couple. which they are far from not. Mary Jane is a party girl and there a young couple. just because there married doesn't mean they have to suddenly stop living. suddenly she had no life. and they dragged peter into being a teacher: "while he was separated from her."

that decision destroyed his supporting cast. not his marriage.

My point being is that sure the direction they chose with the marriage did cause SOME problems. but the majority of it was just bad story telling. and marvel trying the milk the crap out of some stories and characters.

 

[Styleshift]

double post.

 

[Arach Knight]

How long do you expect her to be a party girl? Most married people aren't party people. That's why they get married. Most folks party to have fun and meet new people etc. But they settled down. My neighbors are 26 and 24 years old (about the same age as Peter and Mary Jane) and guess what? They lead the most routine day to day lives possible. Until they had children, they both pretty much went to work and came home and had dinner.

Didn't Mary Jane get pregnent? So wouldn't she logically calm down and act like a parent should? Even after the miscarriage, wouldn't something like that make her wiser and more mature? Or should she spend the rest of their marriage in clubs and parties that Peter can't make it to because he is busy trying to pay rent and not get murdered by the psycho paths he fights on a day to day basis? That doesn't sound like a relationship to me. If she didn't calm down, then she and Peter would essentially be leading two very different lives. As you have noticed, the taming wasn't solely on MJ's side. Peter calmed down too. Once he finished school and they started to become a serious family, he found a new profession and a new living arrangement. You can't have one guy getting wild in the streets of New York while his wife gets wild in the parties of New York. Just doesn't work.

And I don't know anyone who stopped reading Spider-Man because Mary Jane split from Peter. I know folks who didn't like being told that the Spider-Man they read for most of their lives was actually a clone. I know folks who stopped reading because they started to give Peter, spider powers that made no sense. But not because of MJ. The point i'm trying to make, is that other than being his love interest, Mary Jane is pretty worthless. It's no fault peculiar to MJ. It's just the role of a non-super hero spouse being married to a super hero (I point out Sue Dibny).

You know why Reed and Sue work? Sue stands on her own. You could read a book about Susan Storm Richards and it wouldn't be boring. You know why? Because she has a personality and stands apart from Reed as her own person. She compliments Reed. You know why Jessica Jones compliments Luke Cage? Because she stands on her own. Mary Jane doesn't stand on her own. She just exists. And even if they "made her interesting" and made her the smart yet sexy party girl that she used to be, she would only stand as a vapid monument of lackluster existence.

Without powers and a purpose, Mary Jane was nothing more than a comfort for readers that can't let go. All of your arguments and outrage are about how the marriage is ruined. Not about how Mary Jane's absence will actually hurt the book or the ability to tell stories. Have you noticed that? Not once have you mentioned how she perpetuated a certain circumstance other than saying "I'm Peter Parkers wife." Not once have you mentioned that "without her...this can't happen." Now i've mentioned several instances in detail that can be achieved in her absence, that could not be done with her status as his wife. Can you tell me something meaningful (not "I love MJ so much I have to dig out of this mess and live") that she adds to continuity in general, let alone Spider-Man's continuity?

If you get rid of Sue Richards, you don't have a Fantastic Four. Get rid of Jessica Jones and an entire perspective on super heroes is lost (she was after all a super hero consultant for news papers, which is a not often visited perspective since the mini-series Marvels). But you get rid of Mary Jane Watson and what do you get? A bachelor Peter Parker with far more options. Like I said, the only problem here are minor continuity questions (which I gave a perspective on in the other thread) and the fact that a popular hero made a deal with the devil. Otherwise, Mary Jane isn't even a loss. Not even partially.

 

[Themanofbat]

How long do you expect her to be a party girl? Most married people aren't party people. That's why they get married. Most folks party to have fun and meet new people etc. But they settled down. My neighbors are 26 and 24 years old (about the same age as Peter and Mary Jane) and guess what? They lead the most routine day to day lives possible. Until they had children, they both pretty much went to work and came home and had dinner.

Didn't Mary Jane get pregnent? So wouldn't she logically calm down and act like a parent should? Even after the miscarriage, wouldn't something like that make her wiser and more mature? Or should she spend the rest of their marriage in clubs and parties that Peter can't make it to because he is busy trying to pay rent and not get murdered by the psycho paths he fights on a day to day basis? That doesn't sound like a relationship to me. If she didn't calm down, then she and Peter would essentially be leading two very different lives. As you have noticed, the taming wasn't solely on MJ's side. Peter calmed down too. Once he finished school and they started to become a serious family, he found a new profession and a new living arrangement. You can't have one guy getting wild in the streets of New York while his wife gets wild in the parties of New York. Just doesn't work.

And I don't know anyone who stopped reading Spider-Man because Mary Jane split from Peter. I know folks who didn't like being told that the Spider-Man they read for most of their lives was actually a clone. I know folks who stopped reading because they started to give Peter, spider powers that made no sense. But not because of MJ. The point i'm trying to make, is that other than being his love interest, Mary Jane is pretty worthless. It's no fault peculiar to MJ. It's just the role of a non-super hero spouse being married to a super hero (I point out Sue Dibny).

You know why Reed and Sue work? Sue stands on her own. You could read a book about Susan Storm Richards and it wouldn't be boring. You know why? Because she has a personality and stands apart from Reed as her own person. She compliments Reed. You know why Jessica Jones compliments Luke Cage? Because she stands on her own. Mary Jane doesn't stand on her own. She just exists. And even if they "made her interesting" and made her the smart yet sexy party girl that she used to be, she would only stand as a vapid monument of lackluster existence.

Without powers and a purpose, Mary Jane was nothing more than a comfort for readers that can't let go. All of your arguments and outrage are about how the marriage is ruined. Not about how Mary Jane's absence will actually hurt the book or the ability to tell stories. Have you noticed that? Not once have you mentioned how she perpetuated a certain circumstance other than saying "I'm Peter Parkers wife." Not once have you mentioned that "without her...this can't happen." Now i've mentioned several instances in detail that can be achieved in her absence, that could not be done with her status as his wife. Can you tell me something meaningful (not "I love MJ so much I have to dig out of this mess and live") that she adds to continuity in general, let alone Spider-Man's continuity?

If you get rid of Sue Richards, you don't have a Fantastic Four. Get rid of Jessica Jones and an entire perspective on super heroes is lost (she was after all a super hero consultant for news papers, which is a not often visited perspective since the mini-series Marvels). But you get rid of Mary Jane Watson and what do you get? A bachelor Peter Parker with far more options. Like I said, the only problem here are minor continuity questions (which I gave a perspective on in the other thread) and the fact that a popular hero made a deal with the devil. Otherwise, Mary Jane isn't even a loss. Not even partially.

 

[Styleshift]

Dude...I am no longer arguing that Mj was a big loss or not.
that has become irrelevant.

I just stated my own opinion of how the marriage should have ended.
Since its been there for 20 years whether they liked it or not the spider-marriage has fans.

They should have given more respect to ending it.
sure we all tune in ultimately because the book is named "The Amazing Spider-man"

But giving an over priced crappy story to end it was NOT the way to go. everyone can agree on that. they added a whole dollar to the price tag of OMD.

that showed the integrity of marvel. im not so mad at mephisto,peter,mj. but that they were willing to tell a crappy story to get where they wanted.
what makes you think they won't just do it again?

I'll jump back in officially if the next event: new ways to die is good.

but for now my spending money can go towards other things that require real thought to make: like the dark knight.

Heck even that new spidey cartoon has better writing than Spidey does these days....if new ways to die is good. i'll officially jump back in and write a letter of apology to marvel. i promise

 

[Themanofbat]

I think we can ALL AGREE that OMD sucked major league donkey balls, and there might have been a better "out" in order to achieve the status quo we have now.

However, as it is with comics, some stories can really be "hit or miss"...

OMD was a big fat "MISS"... , but BND has been a "HIT" with me.

 

[Styleshift]

I think we can ALL AGREE that OMD sucked major league donkey balls, and there might have been a better "out" in order to achieve the status quo we have now.

However, as it is with comics, some stories can really be "hit or miss"...

OMD was a big fat "MISS"... , but BND has been a "HIT" with me.

I like some of BND.
my only problem with it is that most of those stories could have been written with the marriage intact.

I do know one thing however....that Bob Gale should never pick up a pen and even write the word Spider-man...lol.

 

[Styleshift]

In defense of Farmernudie and I.
I've seen him complain about BND.
nor have I to tell you the truth. cept for Bob Gale. lol.

But the fact that his fav. hero made the choice to deal with the devil.
thats the part that turned him off of spider-man.

Marvel knew it was a poor choice. which is why they threw Spider-genius dan slott on the book and steve mcniven to open the art.