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Superman Returns One scene that would have been better if used in an origin movie...

As has been said there's been an origin film. How many do we need? Been there done that. Seen it over 100 times and more than one version. I make a bet there'd be a lot of people here and elsewhere complaining about him remaking the first film. Actually I think there are people here doing that. But it'd probably be worse. I guess though I wouldn't probably be here to see it. Although we'll never know.

Angeloz
 
And that's one of the problems with it. The whole thing was a big confused mess, lacking direction and intention. It wasn't an origin movie, yet you're right it followed the formula of one. That didn't work.

Basically Singer tried to be too clever. He tried to make an origin movie that wasn't an origin movie. As I said above, any original movie has to introduce its world and characters to the audience, without being an 'origin' story. What he should have done, was:

a) Restarted the franchise and actually done a new origin movie
b) Made a movie with an already well established Superman, and not tried to make a movie with all the issues a hero faces in an origin story in the context of a non-origin story
c) Found some middle ground, and done an origin sequence in the beginning before moving on to something more original

And there's your problem. The movie was not supposed to be an origin story, yet that's the formula it followed.

Well i didnt find it a problem, i thought the movie flowed perfectly well, with the exception of one or two moments.

As Angeloz said above we have already been told Superman's origin, even at the start of returns the dialogue and prologue show his origin.

But with the characters and world being re-introduced, he had to think of people that dont know the Superman character that well (yes there are people like that out there), hence why it followed an origin movie formula.
 
Well i didnt find it a problem, i thought the movie flowed perfectly well, with the exception of one or two moments.

As Angeloz said above we have already been told Superman's origin, even at the start of returns the dialogue and prologue show his origin.

But with the characters and world being re-introduced, he had to think of people that dont know the Superman character that well (yes there are people like that out there), hence why it followed an origin movie formula.

Well said. :)

Angeloz
 
^Thanks, hopefully it'll help a few people realise that WB didnt just make this movie for fans.
 
I think it was for both fans and non-fans. But not everyone was going to like it. It's a given.

Angeloz
 
Well i didnt find it a problem, i thought the movie flowed perfectly well, with the exception of one or two moments.

As Angeloz said above we have already been told Superman's origin, even at the start of returns the dialogue and prologue show his origin.

But with the characters and world being re-introduced, he had to think of people that dont know the Superman character that well (yes there are people like that out there), hence why it followed an origin movie formula.

The movie flowed too perfectly, that was another problem, but I won't go into that here (I think the film suffered very badly from pacing problems). But the point I'm making is that there are ways of introducing a movie. As I keep repeating, if you step away from the superheroes thing for a second, any movie needs to introduce its world and characters, and does so without doing an 'origin' story. The problem with SR is that the kind of questions being raised and the issues Superman was presented with (I would say faced, but there wasn't any character depth so he didn't actually face anything), with the exception of the 'son' thing, which was also badly handled, were superhero origin story issues. The whole acceptance and establishment thing. That's basically what this movie was about. It was Singer making an origin movie, and thinking that he could get away with saying that it wasn't one because he didn't re-tell the already well known Superman origin story.

And that's another point; the Superman origin story is well known. So when you say there is no need to 'remake' a Superman origin movie (which, by the way, isn't necessary - it's possible to make a brand new Superman origin movie without remaking anything; hell, by your reckoning there'd be no point in things like Birthright), it makes no sense when you go on to say "But with the characters and world being re-introduced, he had to think of people that dont know the Superman character that well (yes there are people like that out there)".

So, to sum up, and repeat the point I've been trying to make, Singer should either have made an origin film and restarted the franchise, or he should have gone for something completely original, and just assumed that everyone already knows the character backgrounds and history, vague or otherwise.
 
So either/or? Either for those that have no knowledge or for those that do. That's what you're saying? I think that's too extreme. He needed to cater to both as well as those that have a little knowledge but not very much. As for "Birthright" a comics audience is rather specialised and limited one compared to what a film audience will be. It's pretty obvious.

Angeloz
 
The movie flowed too perfectly, that was another problem, but I won't go into that here (I think the film suffered very badly from pacing problems). But the point I'm making is that there are ways of introducing a movie. As I keep repeating, if you step away from the superheroes thing for a second, any movie needs to introduce its world and characters, and does so without doing an 'origin' story. The problem with SR is that the kind of questions being raised and the issues Superman was presented with (I would say faced, but there wasn't any character depth so he didn't actually face anything), with the exception of the 'son' thing, which was also badly handled, were superhero origin story issues. The whole acceptance and establishment thing. That's basically what this movie was about. It was Singer making an origin movie, and thinking that he could get away with saying that it wasn't one because he didn't re-tell the already well known Superman origin story.

And that's another point; the Superman origin story is well known. So when you say there is no need to 'remake' a Superman origin movie (which, by the way, isn't necessary - it's possible to make a brand new Superman origin movie without remaking anything; hell, by your reckoning there'd be no point in things like Birthright), it makes no sense when you go on to say "But with the characters and world being re-introduced, he had to think of people that dont know the Superman character that well (yes there are people like that out there)".

So, to sum up, and repeat the point I've been trying to make, Singer should either have made an origin film and restarted the franchise, or he should have gone for something completely original, and just assumed that everyone already knows the character backgrounds and history, vague or otherwise.

Making a movie is completely different to making a comic book though.

With this movie, Singer HAD to cater to FANS and NON-FANS of the character, because the general audience is were the most money is. He had to make the movie with ALL movie goers in mind, not just fans. Men, Women, children, the movie had to appeal to EVERYONE to maximise profit.

I cant honestly believe people dont realise this. Movie-making is a business first and foremost.
 
Making a movie is completely different to making a comic book though.

With this movie, Singer HAD to cater to FANS and NON-FANS of the character, because the general audience is were the most money is. He had to make the movie with ALL movie goers in mind, not just fans. Men, Women, children, the movie had to appeal to EVERYONE to maximise profit.

I cant honestly believe people dont realise this. Movie-making is a business first and foremost.

What does any of that have to do with what I said?
 
So either/or? Either for those that have no knowledge or for those that do. That's what you're saying? I think that's too extreme. He needed to cater to both as well as those that have a little knowledge but not very much. As for "Birthright" a comics audience is rather specialised and limited one compared to what a film audience will be. It's pretty obvious.

Angeloz

No, not either/or, especially not 'for those that have no knowledge of the character and those that do'. The problem is, it doesn't effectively cater for either.

Anyway, just to nail it down, was this an origin movie or not? The answer is no, it was not. It does not tell the story of Superman's origin, therefore it was not an origin story.
 
As we've been saying it's an introduction film. Similar but not the same as an origin film.

Angeloz
 
An 'introduction film'? So what's that then? A new phrase? As I've said, every film is an introduction film unless its a sequel.
 
^Thanks,

I saw in another thread you live in Australia Angeloz, were abouts if you dont mind me asking?
 
On the south east part of the mainland (north of Tasmania if you know the island).

Angeloz
 
^No i dont sorry, my brother lives in Melbourne, thats why i was asking.
 
Well not quite, but along those lines. But anyway, not in the post you were responding to. I'd moved on to something else in that one.

Right, sorry didnt realise.

It's doubtful as there's over 20 million people here and over 3 million in the state that I live (or more I haven't looked up the figures).

Angeloz

Fair enough :yay:
 

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