Partially resolved...but

[joke]

Well, that is interesting... the pose is similar, though it appears to my eye that the perspective and weight distribution is different in the WAMS drawing. Nonetheless, it does pose another question to be answered.

Indeed. And while the body is a bit different (I took both of those pictures and layered them on top of each other), the head, its angle, the expression and the maskdesign are, to me at least, identical.

 

[BatScot]

The WAMS drawing seemed more centered over the hips compared to the Ross, which appears more forward... jesus we've got this under the microscope now, don't we? LOL.

 

[Fledermaus]

It pretty much had to be under a microscope. About 4 pages of the favorite Batman pics got wasted on it, the other thread about it got closed because of flaming, and now this one has been pretty peaceful so far. And Wams hasn't bothered to even show up in this thread yet.
I think that there are a limited number of way to draw Batman standing, looking all heroic. Your bound to find some similarites between them. It would amuse me greatly if, that after all the bulls**t that has been thrown around about it, it turns out that Wams ripped off Alex Ross, only to be ripped off by Casssidy. Or not.

 

[Dope Nose]

is this a joke? no, really, is it? they're obviously two different drawings. I mean, they're barely in the same pose. and I'm glad I'm not the only one to recognize the similarities between Wap's art and Alex Ross'.

 

[BatScot]

I spoke to Diamond Comic Distributors, publishers of PREVIEWS magazine. They do not have back copies older than three months, but they do keep one copy of each issue for their records.

The person at Diamond was very helpful, and he was able to find a listing for Planetary: Night on Earth in the April 2003 issue. However, he said that the only picture included with that article appeared to be of the cover.

I was hoping just to narrow down the date of the issue… WAMS, T’jai: Does that date/cover pic fit with your recollection of what appeared in PREVIEWS?

Now when I say 'cover pic' I don't mean anything that appeared on the cover of PREVIEWS, I mean that the article on Planetary included a pic of the Night on Earth cover.

 

[Cobblepot]

WAMS picture immediatly made me think of that Alex Ross picture.
I even wanted to save it in my Alex Ross folder...
For all we know Cassidy could have used Alex Ross's picture.

 

[lujho]

The similarities between the Batman designs in the work of Wams, Ross and Cassaday are not an issue. They're all very similar, and both Wams and Cassaday are probably inspired by Ross's version, BUT that's not plagiarism. Similar poses isn't plagiarism either.

The only thing that IS plagiarism is a direct tracing of another artist's work. The final artwork of Cassaday's is not such a tracing.

But what people who don't seem to be able to read (do they still teach reading comprehension in schools?) are not getting is that Wams claims there was an earlier version of that page with a tracing of Wams' picture.

So please, all you guys saying "that's what all the fuss is about?" and "they're not the same at all" and "looks like they both ripped off Ross" and other variations of "Wams is full of crap", PLEASE wait until you ACTUALLY see the original version of the art that Wams and T'jai claim was the tracing (from Previews magazine).

Until we see that version, if it exists, I'm inclined to give Wams and T'jai the denefit of the doubt and so should you. They have no reason to make this stuff up.

 

[BatScot]

THIS JUST IN:

from PREVIEWS, April 2003:

The Cassaday drawing seen in the PREVIEWS article is definitely different than the one that appears in Planetary: Night on Earth and the Cassaday rendition that was posted earlier in this thread and elsewhere.

Also, the chest logo that appears on the PREVIEWS Cassaday drawing is IDENTICAL to the WAMS chest logo:

... supporting the claim of WAMS and T'Jai that the Cassaday version is a trace.

Let the games begin.

 

[BatScot]

Ordinarily I would hope that as I have not misrepresented myself at all a few might accept my word ... my experience on this board has led me to believe that a slim proposition at best.

There are a few here that make even the slimmest of hopes worthwhile

 

[lujho]

Yep, it's definitely a swipe. Change a little, but not enough to tell that it was based on the other drawing (or the other way around... BUT again, I'll give Wams and T'jai the benefit of the doubt - they've earned it after the s**t they've gotten for this).

The very fact that DC editorial MADE Cassaday change the picture proves it was too close to another artist's work.

 

[joke]

Now that's more like it. Well done, BatScot. And indeed, I have to say, it does look very much like Wams' Batman. But it's a not a total trace. There are a lot of subtle differences, hell, even the bodystructure is different. Muscles are larger, the whole head is different, not to mention the design of the cowl.. The belt is different, obviously, so are the trunks.

But yes, it seems to be influenced by Wams' drawing, which, ironically, was very heavily influenced by Ross's.. Hehe.

The problem is that there are probably hundreds, maybe even thousands, of pictures of Batman standing in that pose and while, as I said, it looks a lot like Wams' version, saying it's a total rip-off, a trace, is exaggeration.

 

[lujho]

It might not be a direct trace, but it's a very close copy. Far closer than any two average "Alex Ross influenced Batmen in a standing position" could ever co-incidentally be.

You can tell the the changes made are simply perfunctory measures to make it not exactly the same as the drawing it was based on.

 

[Dope Nose]

oh I see! so Wam invented the 3/4 turn pose. now I get it.

 

[Flexo]

It still doesn't look like a trace. Somewhat similar, yeah. And by similar, I mean they both stole the bat symbol from the Batman Begins toys.

 

[lujho]

oh I see! so Wam invented the 3/4 turn pose. now I get it.

Don't be silly. One drawing is clearly based on the other. There are far too many similarities for it to be coincidence.

 

[joke]

After I made my previous post, I went back and looked at the page from the book, and the pictures look pretty damn close.

It still doesn't look like a trace. Somewhat similar, yeah. And by similar, I mean they both stole the bat symbol from the Batman Begins toys.

The book was released in the summer of 2003. A long time before the movie.

 

[Flexo]

DOn't be silly. One drawing is clearly based on the other.

Both drawings are turned the same way and have similar costumes.

But, it's Batman. The costumes aren't going to be that different, and the same poses are always being recycled.

 

[Flexo]

The book was released in the summer of 2003. A long time before the movie.

Then the real question becomes how did Cassidy get a time machine.

 

[BatScot]

Then the real question becomes how did Cassidy get a time machine.

Maybe he stole it from someone else

 

[lujho]

Both drawings are turned the same way and have similar costumes.

But, it's Batman. The costumes aren't going to be that different, and the same poses are always being recycled.

Oh, come on. It's a swipe, plain as day. It's not the similarity of costume that's the problem, it's the near identical pose. Jesus, even the folds on the cape are the same. It's not identical but there's no way the similarities are co-incidental. The changes are superficial, the biggest being the head position.

The changes in the final printed version take Cassaday's swipe and hide/alter the remaining similarities to Wams' original.

 

[lujho]

Then the real question becomes how did Cassidy get a time machine.

The Begins chest symbol is hardly unique. It was drawn similar to that well before the film ever came out.

And why do you differentiate between the symbol on the toy and the one on the film's suit itself? They're the same.

 

[Motown Marvel]

its still just a generic pose of batman standing there, with little similarities between the two. the closest similarities is the bat mantle, and alex ross has been drawing it like that for YEARS! wams and cassaday both have a sense of realism in their art and pay close attention to anatomy....any two artists like that will find similarities in their work. but this is hardly a rip off.

 

[lujho]

its still just a generic pose of batman standing there, with little similarities between the two. the closest similarities is the bat mantle, and alex ross has been drawing it like that for YEARS!

Actually, Ross has the cape come together in the middle. Wams and Cassaday have edges of the cape start out towards 2 points at the side of the neck.

But anyway - look at the draping of the cape. The folds are the same. They're in the same position - they line up. How on earth could that be coincidental?

And you're confusing the issue of very similar character design with clearly copied/traced pose. The former is not a problem at all - as you say, it's both artist's grasp of anatomy and approach to realism that's going to maky any 2 images of Batman by each artist look similar. But for God's sake, these aren't just two similar designs/poses - they're the SAME POSE with almost the same lines.

wams and cassaday both have a sense of realism in their art and pay close attention to anatomy....any two artists like that will find similarities in their work. but this is hardly a rip off.

Come on. You're denying the obvious. Besides, if it wasn't a swipe why was Cassaday made to change it?

Look at the picture where I overlayed them. I lined up the vertical line that runs down the abdomen (they are exactly the same shape). And everything else more or less lines up - the pecs, the cape, the symbol, the arms. Where it obviously doesn't line up is a deliberate deviation from the original.

There's no way these 2 images could have been produced independently of eachother, barring astronimical coincidence.

 

[T'Jai]

its still just a generic pose of batman standing there, with little similarities between the two. the closest similarities is the bat mantle, and alex ross has been drawing it like that for YEARS! wams and cassaday both have a sense of realism in their art and pay close attention to anatomy....any two artists like that will find similarities in their work. but this is hardly a rip off.

So your saying the exact pose and the cape folds is a coincidence and that the art (which is perfectly fine as it is, was changed for no reason) And that I spent three days arguing with people, and starting threads, and hunting down mods and, looking for this drawing, and keeping my temper despite the fact that people were obvioulsy attempting to get me to lose it for WHAT EXACTLY?!?


T

EDIT: Wams will be chiming in in a moment (i'm on the phone with him right now)

RE: The Ross similarity, The art was commissioned by Warner Consumer Products art division
Where Wams was stationed at the point that this took place, the request was a for a "Ross" style batman that was simple in it's form for posting on packaging and other promotional materials
as Wams is able to replicate many styles (and was already on the payroll) they asked him to come up with the designs...

 

[BatScot]

… with little similarities between the two.

The only significant dissimilarity is that Cassaday...

... took the time to at least draw his own head (which I quite like BTW).

… the closest similarities is the bat mantle

Which is identical.

...any two artists like that will find similarities in their work. but this is hardly a rip off.

Hell, even the highlights in the trunks are the same:

Case closed. Judgement in favor of Plaintif.